Is Alternative dead and how can it go forward?

[radiorobert]

As much as I’d love an alternative format…the songs I think of hearing and the songs the next person thinks of hearing are going to vary, proportionately such that it’s probably too difficult to program. Local research could alleviate that but most companies nowadays don’t want to have to do that kind of research as it’s too expensive. And then the process of adapting as time goes on.

Broadcast companies want a cheap easy format they can get on the air and not have to worry about spending so much energy picking the tracks just right to tailor to the individual listeners in their area.

 

[macattack]

As much as I’d love an alternative format…the songs I think of hearing and the songs the next person thinks of hearing are going to vary, proportionately such that it’s probably too difficult to program. Local research could alleviate that but most companies nowadays don’t want to have to do that kind of research as it’s too expensive. And then the process of adapting as time goes on.

Broadcast companies want a cheap easy format they can get on the air and not have to worry about spending so much energy picking the tracks just right to tailor to the individual listeners in their area.

Two of the most recent #1s exemplify this issue. “Ramon Ayala” by Giovannie & The Hired Guns struggled to get airplay in New England and West Coast but got huge spin counts in the Midwest and South. The current #1, “Sex, Drugs, Etc.” by Beach Weather, is the almost exact opposite. A ton of airplay in the West Coast and New England but is lucky to escape the overnight shift in the heartland.

Alternative has different meanings depending on the region you head into. This makes the format so frustrating for national companies. You can’t just plop 300 songs in that will work everywhere because they literally don’t exist. You have to tailor to the market in order to have a successful Alternative station.

I suspect Alternative will continue to pull down huge numbers in the Midwest and South but I think the retreat from the West Coast and New England is going to continue.

 

[TheBigA]

You can’t just plop 300 songs in that will work everywhere because they literally don’t exist. You have to tailor to the market in order to have a successful Alternative station.

What does that say about the genre? That there are no artists who are big enough or have music strong enough to gain acceptance by the entire country. Just a bunch of regional artists. Even in the 60s, when you had regional labels and hits, there were enough artists to build national charts and formats. Artists need to set the bar higher than just the few regional markets where they can play live. Music needs to be good enough to reach everyone. Somehow other genres have figured out how to do this. But alternative lacks leadership and direction.

 

[macattack]

What does that say about the genre? That there are no artists who are big enough or have music strong enough to gain acceptance by the entire country. Just a bunch of regional artists. Even in the 60s, when you had regional labels and hits, there were enough artists to build national charts and formats. Artists need to set the bar higher than just the few regional markets where they can play live. Music needs to be good enough to reach everyone. Somehow other genres have figured out how to do this. But alternative lacks leadership and direction.

Country manages just fine with complete garbage ratings in parts of the country, lack of successful pop crossover, and lots of vocal hatred for the genre. Rock and Alt have to do the same. To an extent, they already are.

 

[TheBigA]

Country manages just fine with complete garbage ratings in parts of the country, lack of successful pop crossover, and lots of vocal hatred for the genre. Rock and Alt have to do the same. To an extent, they already are.

Lack of successful pop crossover? What do you call Morgan Wallen and Luke Combs? Both are getting airplay in Top 40. But my post wasn't about radio. It was about creating artists who are national stars, who are known outside of their fan base. That's what's missing from alternative, and it's really only a recent phenomenon.

 

[macattack]

Lack of successful pop crossover? What do you call Morgan Wallen and Luke Combs? Both are getting airplay in Top 40. But my post wasn't about radio. It was about creating artists who are national stars, who are known outside of their fan base. That's what's missing from alternative, and it's really only a recent phenomenon.

Then what do you call Maneskin, Glass Animals, All Time Low, Ghost, Rosa Linn, D4vd, AJR, or Steve Lacy?

Alternative and Rock have a bunch of existing or budding stars. It’s not missing at all. Pop PDs simply lack confidence in them (even Lacy with the #1 on the Hot 100 looks like he will be blocked from the #1 on pop Airplay by tried and true Taylor Swift).

 

[TheBigA]

Then what do you call Maneskin, Glass Animals, All Time Low, Ghost, Rosa Linn, D4vd, AJR, or Steve Lacy?

What recognition do they all receive outside of their own genre?

 

[macattack]

What recognition do they all receive outside of their own genre?

Glass Animals holds the biggest Hot 100 hit of all time.

 

[TheBigA]

Glass Animals holds the biggest Hot 100 hit of all time.

Actually it's the longest-running song in the Hot 100.

MSN

They're more indie rock than alternative.

 

[macattack]

Actually it's the longest-running song in the Hot 100.

MSN

They're more indie rock than alternative.

Indie rock is literally the core of the alternative format and always has been. The one time Alt tried to abandon this core (the late 10’s) it caused a disaster that the format is still reeling from.

 

[TheBigA]

Indie rock is literally the core of the alternative format and always has been. The one time Alt tried to abandon this core (the late 10’s) it caused a disaster that the format is still reeling from.

So great, you've named one current indie band that has international success. Interesting that they're British. Why can't more US-based bands accomplish the same thing? Could it be that they don't aim for that level of success?

 

[radiorobert]

What recognition do they all receive outside of their own genre?

Well actually this is where I think ironically CHR is headed toward a schism. I found out about those names via CHR. I think those artists clash too much with the Rhythmic product on CHR.

Those more alternative artists are supposed to be on more of a dedicated alternative format but the format can’t get the traction it needs.

They sound really clunky on CHR especially when you come out of Future or Drake type tracks.

But it does tell me a lot about their genre.

 

[vchimpanzee]

Well actually this is where I think ironically CHR is headed toward a schism. I found out about those names via CHR. I think those artists clash too much with the Rhythmic product on CHR.

Those more alternative artists are supposed to be on more of a dedicated alternative format but the format can’t get the traction it needs.

They sound really clunky on CHR especially when you come out of Future or Drake type tracks.

But it does tell me a lot about their genre.

My impression of WKZQ Myrtle Beach SC was that it sounded like a CHR that happened to play alternative artists instead of a rock station which is what it used to be, and some say it is again.

And one of the CHRs, Mix 97.7, sounds rhythmic to me. The other one, Energy 92.1, sounds like a Hot AC to me.

 

[radiorobert]

Right which when done properly in a competitive context is how they should sound. I’m living in a market where they are all trying to sound the same. And the existence of the two styles in the same format throws it off.

But in terms of Alternative it’s like there is an artist base out there but they don’t have a home.

 

[MarkW]

I listened to a 2002 "10th anniversary" retrospective of Atlanta's 99X recently on YouTube.

Those who launched the format - some of whom were holdovers from the Power 99 CHR format (such as Steve Craig) - did not follow national research. In fact, there was no big third-party conducted format study whatsoever. The staff actually went out into the market and researched the artists & albums whose material was selling well at local record stores (remember them?), visited local music venues, and talked to listeners about the type of music they wanted to hear.

This approach - which seems unspeakable today and perhaps even back then - actually spawned a station that proved to be an Alternative format heavyweight for a number of years.

I think the station's decision to abruptly abandon the heavier sound of alternative that had emerged after embracing that sound for a couple of years in favor of "New (wimpier) Rock and 90s Alternative" set the wheels in motion for its ultimate downfall.

 

[TheBigA]

This approach - which seems unspeakable today and perhaps even back then - actually spawned a station that proved to be an Alternative format heavyweight for a number of years.

So you're suggesting they go to local record stores and ask what's selling?

 

[davideduardo]

Those who launched the format - some of whom were holdovers from the Power 99 CHR format (such as Steve Craig) - did not follow national research.

There was no national radio research in specific format music in 1990 because no company, under the 7-7-7 rule, owned more than a couple of stations in that format at the time.

The only research of that kind available was sales based, and did not identify specific songs, just artists and albums.

In fact, there was no big third-party conducted format study whatsoever. The staff actually went out into the market and researched the artists & albums whose material was selling well at local record stores (remember them?), visited local music venues, and talked to listeners about the type of music they wanted to hear.

Anecdotal evidence based research only works as long as there is no competitor with better information. And, back then, three decades ago, rock in general was still at its peak level so there was plenty of music and limited fragmentation of the audience base.

This approach - which seems unspeakable today and perhaps even back then - actually spawned a station that proved to be an Alternative format heavyweight for a number of years.

It was research, done on the cheap. As I said, it works if there is no truly audience driven competitive station with quantified data on which songs to play.

I think the station's decision to abruptly abandon the heavier sound of alternative that had emerged after embracing that sound for a couple of years in favor of "New (wimpier) Rock and 90s Alternative" set the wheels in motion for its ultimate downfall.

The later 90's is when we saw the start of fragmentation within the overall rock marquee.

 

[TheBigA]

There was no national radio research in specific format music in 1990 because no company, under the 7-7-7 rule, owned more than a couple of stations in that format at the time.

But seems to me consultants did the research, and they had groups as clients. Susquehanna did a great job with their group.

Brian Phillips was a big believer in research.

 

[davideduardo]

But seems to me consultants did the research, and they had groups as clients. Susquehanna did a great job with their group.

Sort of... call out did not begin in limited markets until around 1975 and AMTs began in the early 80's. Anything done prior to that used rather conventional systems of sales, requests and the radio/music trades like R&R, Hamilton, FMQB, etc.

Brian Phillips was a big believer in research.

Yes, we found that the first Top 40 on the planet tracked jukebox plays and rack jobber sales going back to around 1952.

 

[MarkW]

So you're suggesting they go to local record stores and ask what's selling?

What I appreciate from the early days of 99X is that the station - using its local staff's judgment - geared its programming & specific artist choices to the tastes of the local market as opposed to following a pre-fabricated boilerplate template from an out-of-town consultant.