• Get involved.
    We want your input!
    Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.

    After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
    If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.

    After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
    https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/

    Thanks in advance and have fun!
    RadioDiscussions Administrators

NYC Radio Dream Dial

Nobody said "monotlithically" but the fact is that classical and jazz are such small fragments of the music preference spectrum that they can not support a commercial radio station.

That totally misses the point. Those genres make up the musical fabric of NY as much as hip hop, Spanish or rhythmic music.

Many of the top contemporary artists in the world have classical music training. And jazz has always influenced -- and continues to influence -- music across every genre. Venerable bands like The Beatles and Pink Floyd made rock music rooted in Jazz. But then so does Camila Cabello, a Cuban-American artist who I'm sure you love. These artists have all been staples on commercial radio and in American culture including in NYC.

And punk, indie and folks can't even do any more than provide the fodder for occasional shows on marginal stations.

Brooklyn is the epicenter of punk, post-punk and indie culture, It's home to Alternative staples like The Strokes, Vampire Weekend, the Yeah Yeah Yeahs, and many more who sadly don't even have a station in New York that plays them any more.

Your comments on Folk only serve to prove your bias. Ever heard of a "marginal" folk-pop artist named Ed Sheeran? How about Mumford and Sons, The Lumineers or Brooklynite Regina Spektor?

Again, pigeonholing NYC as nothing more than a city of "rhythmic" music lovers is simply being ignorant of reality.
 
Last edited:
But then so does Camila Cabello, a Cuban-American artist who I'm sure you love.
During the time when my former favorite Myrtle Beach radio station was mainstream AC, and there was no "last songs played" on the web site, I would listen to just enough of every song to find out what it was and enjoy how outrageous it was, hoping the fans of soft music would revolt (and they seem to have been successful as it is soft AC once again).

And during those days of mainstream AC, two of the songs I actually liked were by her.
Ever heard of a "marginal" folk-pop artist named Ed Sheeran? How about Mumford and Sons, The Lumineers or Brooklynite Regina Spektor?
And nothing by Sheeran sounded good to me. What I've heard of The Lumineers I didn't care for, and I'm not certain about Mumford or his sons. The only folk music I care for is people like Peter Paul and Mary, The Highwaymen, The Kingston Trio and The Brothers Four.
 
That totally misses the point. Those genres make up the musical fabric of NY as much as hip hop, Spanish or rhythmic music.

Many of the top contemporary artists in the world have classical music training. And jazz has always influenced -- and continues to influence -- music across every genre. Venerable bands like The Beatles and Pink Floyd made rock music rooted in Jazz. But then so does Camila Cabello, a Cuban-American artist who I'm sure you love. These artists have all been staples on commercial radio and in American culture including in NYC.
Classical began to fade nationwide as a commercial format in the late 1990s when FM signals exploded in value. Evergreen paid $55M for KFAC-FM in January 1989 and there was no way they could afford to keep the station as-is. Didn’t matter that KFAC’s classical format dated back to 1935 (I looked it up!). WTMI, WQMS, WFLN, WQRS, WNCN and WNIB all died rather ignoble deaths during the 90s and 2000s. As did KKGO when Saul saw that there was more money to be made with country.

At least the NYT engineered a win-win preserving WQXR and making it a non-comm on a lesser signal under WNYC control. Robert Conrad did the same with WCLV and they just celebrated their 60th anniversary as part of the Ideastream group, now on the plum 90.3 facility.
 
Last edited:
Classical began to fade nationwide as a commercial format in the late 1990s when FM signals exploded in value. Evergreen paid $55M for KFAC-FM in January 1989 and there was no way they could afford to keep the station as-is. Didn’t matter that KFAC’s classical format dated back to 1935 (I looked it up!).

At least the NYT engineered a win-win preserving WQXR and making it a non-comm on a lesser signal under WNYC control. Robert Conrad did the same with WCLV and they just celebrated their 60th anniversary as part of the Ideastream group, now on the plum 90.3 facility.
Ironically, In Richmond, VA at least one commercial station playing something lots of people would enjoy went classical and I think non-commercial.
 
That totally misses the point. Those genres make up the musical fabric of NY as much as hip hop, Spanish or rhythmic music.
And you are missing mine: commercial radio can not support formats or musical genres which don't attract enough audience to be profitable. Similarly, non-commercial stations can only support formats where there are enough listeners who will financially support them.
Many of the top contemporary artists in the world have classical music training. And jazz has always influenced -- and continues to influence -- music across every genre. Venerable bands like The Beatles and Pink Floyd made rock music rooted in Jazz.
That does not mean that such genres can be supported via commercial radio. In fact, a question comes to mind: how many "hobbyist" web streams of jazz or classical music are there?
But then so does Camila Cabello, a Cuban-American artist who I'm sure you love.
Incorrect assumption.
These artists have all been staples on commercial radio and in American culture including in NYC.
Mostly in the past. The Beatles get practically no airplay on commercial radio in NYC, for example. And those artists may have been staples of Top 40/CHR and rock, but not of many other formats.
Brooklyn is the epicenter of punk, post-punk and indie culture, It's home to Alternative staples like The Strokes, Vampire Weekend, the Yeah Yeah Yeahs, and many more who sadly don't even have a station in New York that plays them any more.
And that is because the genre is not widely enough liked to support a format.
Your comments on Folk only serve to prove your bias. Ever heard of a "marginal" folk-pop artist named Ed Sheeran? How about Mumford and Sons, The Lumineers or Brooklynite Regina Spektor?
Ever heard of "cross overs"? None of those artists is pure "folk".
Again, pigeonholing NYC as nothing more than a city of "rhythmic" music lovers is simply being ignorant of reality.
I did not say "nothing more". I mentioned that a number of formats, ranging from country to alternative rock to jazz can't sustain a commercial station. That's because their following is relatively small and unsustainable.
 
One or two months, if that. That format was a placeholder programmed entirely out of Chicago and nothing more. It had zero future.

There was no scenario—NONE—in which Merlin’s creditors didn’t force them to sell 101.9. FM News was a massive financial failure.
But then, why would they give us a temporary placeholder that they knew we'd fall in love with?
 
Brooklyn is the epicenter of punk, post-punk and indie culture, It's home to Alternative staples like The Strokes, Vampire Weekend, the Yeah Yeah Yeahs, and many more who sadly don't even have a station in New York that plays them any more.
David is full buisness-minded in these discussions, as I know from experience.

I find that we have a vast agreement in musical taste; and I feel that on FM radio in these current times, there is no place for fans of anything that isn't rhythmic, country (outside of NYC), Pop/Top-40/Hot AC/CHR, and Sports Talk (which I despise the most of all, grown men droning on about a game they don't play, but think they are all-knowing). David and others will go straight to the numbers. I subjectively disagree, viewing it as alienating people who don't agree to the preferred stereotype. But, my subjectivity doesn't hold much merrit to the data they present. One person's anecdotal observation will not drive the direction of an entire industry. Yet, I will still denounce it through my subjective perspective (knowing that I speak for one person out of millions of Americans).

With that, I need to play "devil's advocate." As WNYL and the "Alt 92.3" brand, many of the Alternative bands/artists that you mentioned got airplay (prior to the station's last stand, reverting to Alt-Rock). How did WNYL perform? Was it successful with those acts as the core artists? Did it need to tweak the playlist, and place less emphasis on them? Let's Go back to the CBGB days, and New York home grown bands like The Ramones. Did they have much success on American FM radio? They sold out arenas...internationally. Domestically, they were a club band (one of which is still my personal all-time favorites).

Where I agree with you is that culturally, the deck is stacked against many genres of music. My top music choices are (in order) Rock, Blues, Rap, Alternative, Jazz (not smooth jazz). I've complained for years about my theory (and it's just that, a theory), that the music industry pushes cookie cutter music, which is what radio picks up. Since it's what plays and what is pushed, it forms the cultural preferences of the current consumer generation, creating a loop that is self-fulfilling. In my 20s, from my little microcosm, I waged a one-man war on CHR and people who listened to stations that I still jokingly refer to as "Crap 108 (Boston)" and SiriusXM (expletive) 1. My gripe was the early 2000s hard-line stance against vulgarity and violence in Rock and Rap, while the same soccer moms shook in danced in their cars to pop songs that were sexual in nature. I viewed it as not "being for the children," but rather being a collective voice against types of music that they didn't like.

And to be honest, there isn't much of a strong counter-culture as there was from the 60s until the the 90s. Post-9/11 America sheded a great amount of the counter-culture. The soccer moms didn't win any true war, but musical tastes of the greater population did shift towards the fore mentioned types of music. We can point fingers all day as to why, but it is what happened (much to my disdain). The mainstream adopted some parts of the old 90s counter-culture and moved forward. That was the more rhythmic sound, and this notion that men want to hear other men talk about a third set of men playing a game that nobody in the first two sets of men played, over rock, alt-rock, Alternative, etc. As this became the norm, a unidentified amount of the population subscribed to it. I don't have exact numbers, but people like David will and do reference them when explaining why radio is in its current direction.

So the answer truly is that when something offers a product that one doesn't want, go somewhere else where one can find what they prefer. I don't like tacos, so I don't go to Taco Bell. But, open a fast food place that focuses on Cuban or Dominican food, and I'd need a wheel barrel to get in and out of there. The same held true. I used every app around to find songs I'd like, then would look up the band on YouTube, then would buy the songs on iTunes, then save them to my phone. I did that for years, until I got unlimited data and decided to subscribe to satellite radio.

The problem that I'm reading with your post, is the same problem that I had for a long time. We're arguing (as in debating) two contrasting things between us and them. We're speaking of art, while they are speaking of buisness. Buisness is objective and data driven (mostly quantitative), where art is subjective. They are creating something that works for as many people as possible to drive in the biggest buisness as possible. We are speaking of personal taste, which in our case doesn't appeal to the mass audience. That's simply what's happening here.
 
But then, why would they give us a temporary placeholder that they knew we'd fall in love with?
They were not going to continue the news operation because it was too costly. It cost them less to run a music format that was mostly automated. Any success was incidental.

FM News was a costly failure, that incurred massive debt to Merlin. Thus, CBS, with its somewhat deep pockets, came and bought it. That's business.
 
You're forgetting the daily 12 o'clock Beatles block and Sunday morning Breakfast with the Beatles!!!
That defines "practically no airplay". A couple of spins on a couple of stations vs. tens of thousands of spins in the total market.
 
The problem that I'm reading with your post, is the same problem that I had for a long time. We're arguing (as in debating) two contrasting things between us and them. We're speaking of art, while they are speaking of buisness. Buisness is objective and data driven (mostly quantitative), where art is subjective. They are creating something that works for as many people as possible to drive in the biggest buisness as possible. We are speaking of personal taste, which in our case doesn't appeal to the mass audience. That's simply what's happening here.

This is how it has always been in radio. Sometimes an owner/management takes pride in their product and believes in creativity. He'll hire a top notch creative team and allow them to practice their art, and that's almost always when the best radio happens. Unfortunately, this type of owner has become a rare breed thanks to the level of consolidation and concentration in the radio business.

On the flip side we see the dispassionate type of owner who views the radio business through spreadsheets and might as well be selling insurance. This is normally what you get from "big radio" -- the Wall Street companies with institutional investors, managed by people with little interest in the product they're selling apart from finding ways to squeeze every cent out of it. These people have the data driven answer for everything but if you look at the track records of the biggest radio companies in the United States they have either gone bankrupt or they're close to it. The C-suite people always seem to come out of it with their personal wealth intact, though, no matter how much damage they did. Funny how that works.
 
On the flip side we see the dispassionate type of owner who views the radio business through spreadsheets and might as well be selling insurance.

I've worked for all types of owners. The MBAs who live off spreadsheets and the small ones who manage by their gut. I have found that I had more creative freedom under the "dispassionate types" because they just want results, and I knew how to combine creativity with results. That's hard to find: someone who combines passion, creativity, and the ability to deliver results.

If "big radio" bothers you, spend some time in non-commercial radio. No consolidation there. Mostly small single station operations. If creativity is the solution to radio's problems, then you'd see more non-commercial stations topping the ratings. How can you fail with large playlists and no annoying commercials? Explain.
 
Objectively, there’s no other way to look at this. Radio is a business.
As with any buisness, you can take multiple approaches. You can be focused on biggest return on investment, or you can be focused on operating your business in a manner that best suits your creativity and/or mindset. With large ownership, the industry is designed to be best suited for the former.
 
But then, why would they give us a temporary placeholder that they knew we'd fall in love with?
Radio stations do not program to what a small fringe group of people “love” and they never have. They program to make money.

Let’s be very blunt here. The chances WRXP would have made money with the placeholder were imperceptible, but they were going to lose less money with the format that they would have keeping FM News, a station outright rejected by the general public, going. It’s what happens when you operate a station entirely out of Chicago, by people from Chicago and music scheduled right out of Chicago.

There was nothing “New York” about WRXP and it never would have been a New York station.
 
I've worked for all types of owners. The MBAs who live off spreadsheets and the small ones who manage by their gut. I have found that I had more creative freedom under the "dispassionate types" because they just want results, and I knew how to combine creativity with results. That's hard to find: someone who combines passion, creativity, and the ability to deliver results.
This is valid point to add to the discussion. Only out of curiosity, what formats have you found the most success in applying your creativity; or in other words, where are you most passionate? If I was in the industry and had your experience, I'd flounder in certain formats. For example, an owner could give me flexibility on a country station, and I would inadvertently tank the station, by playing my opinion of "good country," which is mostly Southern Rock. 😆
 
This is valid point to add to the discussion. Only out of curiosity, what formats have you found the most success in applying your creativity; or in other words, where are you most passionate? If I was in the industry and had your experience, I'd flounder in certain formats. For example, an owner could give me flexibility on a country station, and I would inadvertently tank the station, by playing my opinion of "good country," which is mostly Southern Rock. 😆
While you asked this of BigA, I'll jump in too (and invite others to, as well... this is an interesting question for sure!).

I've had good fortune with formats that I was not deeply in love with or, at the offset, did not even care for. I find that being able to distance the professional aspect from the personal one has helped.

The first station I programmed was the first one I owned. I picked the format, Top 40, because there was no top 40 station in the market (despite there being over 40 stations in total) and because I loved Top 40. I tended to program to what I wanted to hear, not thinking all the time about what listeners wanted.

My second station, about 18 months later, was a format I was less familiar with and which I had only even known about for a few years. I consulted others and listened to listeners, particularly folks like cab drivers, our maids and gardeners and other "blue collar" people I came in contact with.

My third format was an FM (this was in the 60's) and, while I was just 20 years old at the time, I did Beautiful Music. Obviously, the format was for my in-laws, not my own generation. The station was listened to at all the local higher end stores and restaurants, so each time I was in one of those places, I talked to the owners and got feedback.

All three were #1 in their targets. But the one I could have done much better with was the format I liked best. As I look back, I know many things I should have done better on that station, but on the other two I think we did as well as we possibly could have... because I talked to listeners rather than using my own taste.
 
Status
This thread has been closed due to inactivity. You can create a new thread to discuss this topic.


Back
Top Bottom