So Cal Hits

[davideduardo]

In fairness to ChannelFlipper, the story is that the concept was Casey's, and that he approached Ron Jacobs, Tom Rounds and Don Bustany, who then formed Watermark in order to produce the show.

And, of course, that story is not accurate if you knew all the people involved. After leaving KFRC, Rounds did a number of music events, such as the Miami one that was a huge success. He wanted to come up with a radio concept that could be put on multiple stations and sold as a package... he thus created barter programs that the stations got for free and only had to run the spots packaged in the show.

Casey was hired by Rounds and Jacobs after they had come up with the basic concept, right down to the little bits Casey would do besides just narrating the chart positions. Watermark was already created and pending all the legalities before Casey came into the picture.

 

[davideduardo]

Similar with Casey Kasem... who is the one name nearly everyone knew to associate with AT40, as he is much higher profile inside and outside of the radio industry than are Tom Rounds and Ron Jacobs, as deserving as they should be too.

Inside the industry and among those who lived the era, I'd say that we consider TR and Jacobs to be creative geniuses, and one of the smartest things they did was hire Casey.

 

[davideduardo]

Congratulations for winning the best "Distinction without a Difference" post of the day, with especially high marks for completely ignoring the relevant point of the post to which you were responding.

I think most people, especially on an industry site like this one, know Casey was not the producer of the show (in fact he calls out the producers at the end of every show after playing the #1 song, which changed over the years, and never included himself). Regardless, the point I was trying to make is much more effectively made by associating the show with Casey, who everyone knows, rather than Tom Rounds.

Sometimes you know-it-alls demonstrate your know-it-all-is'ms too much.

And this is how misinformation gets perpetuated.

Thomas Edison invented the light bulb, right?

No, he did not. He invented a filament material that would allow bulbs, already well invented and developed by several people, to last more than a few minutes before burning out.

Saying Casey Kasem "created" AT40 is that kind of misinformation. He helped popularize it and was part of the ongoing creative process as the show matured. But the creation that allowed AT40 to even exist was Rounds' idea of doing barter programming... and that was the "filament in the light bulb".

 

[davideduardo]

That was part of it, especially in that format. But the other part was that the music business really changed after Monterey Pop and Woodstock at the end of the 60s.

You forget the KFRC event that predated the Monterey Pop and even used Tom Rounds' promotion genius brought in from KPOI. He went on to be the on-site coordinator of Woodstock after working with Rounds at his several day even in Hialeah, FL.

From Rolling Stone "In 1967, Rounds, disheartened at seeing security get increasingly confrontational with concertgoers at indoor venues, conceived the Fantasy Fair & Magic Mountain Festival, a precursor to Monterey Pop Festival and Woodstock that now stands as the first U.S. rock festival."

 

[davideduardo]

Was TenQ smarter than everybody else or were they just playing a bunch of stiffs? Given that the station didn't rocket to number one, Jimi was gone in a year and their best books came after they tightened up, you could make a case for the latter.

And in those few later books, we had the creativity of a bunch of really good Top 40 radio folks, starting with Mike McVay and all these other folks:

1976-1977 Real Don Steele
1976-1977 Chuck Browning
1976-1977 Dave Conley
1976-1978 John Driscoll
1976-1977 Jimi Fox
1976-1977 Rich "Brother" Robbin
1976-1977 Tony Evans
1976-1977 Phil Flowers
1977-1977 Andy Barber
1976-1978 Dave Hume
1976-1978 Joe Nasty
1976-1978 Willie B
1976-1978 Dave Trout (Freddie Snakeskin)
1976-1979 Boyd R. Britton
1977-1979 Charlie Tuna
1977-1980 Beaver Cleaver (Ken Levine)
1978-1979 Mike Carson (Dave Skyler)
1978-1979 Jack Armstrong
1978-1978 "Machine Gun" Kelly
1978-1978 Lou Richards
1978-1978 Gary Cocker
1978-1978 Mike McVay
1978-1979 Dave Sebastian
1978-1979 Jim Conlee
1978-1979 Phil Conrad

(From KTNQ Los Angeles Radio History)

 

[TheBigA]

You forget the KFRC event that predated the Monterey Pop

I mentioned Monterey because of the role of record labels. Clive Davis, Jac Holzman, Lou Adler and more attended, and they were the ones who had the vision for a more national approach to music.

One of the names that comes up is Frank DiLeo. He was hired at Epic Records in 1968. He was very important in centralizing the record business, and making music a national and even international thing. He later became Michael Jackson's manager. We shouldn't ignore the fact that Epic Records was owned by CBS, and that the synergy between music and media was just starting to be felt.

 

[radiofan2023]

And in those few later books, we had the creativity of a bunch of really good Top 40 radio folks, starting with Mike McVay and all these other folks:

1976-1977 Real Don Steele
1976-1977 Chuck Browning
1976-1977 Dave Conley
1976-1978 John Driscoll
1976-1977 Jimi Fox
1976-1977 Rich "Brother" Robbin
1976-1977 Tony Evans
1976-1977 Phil Flowers
1977-1977 Andy Barber
1976-1978 Dave Hume
1976-1978 Joe Nasty
1976-1978 Willie B
1976-1978 Dave Trout (Freddie Snakeskin)
1976-1979 Boyd R. Britton
1977-1979 Charlie Tuna
1977-1980 Beaver Cleaver (Ken Levine)
1978-1979 Mike Carson (Dave Skyler)
1978-1979 Jack Armstrong
1978-1978 "Machine Gun" Kelly
1978-1978 Lou Richards
1978-1978 Gary Cocker
1978-1978 Mike McVay
1978-1979 Dave Sebastian
1978-1979 Jim Conlee
1978-1979 Phil Conrad

(From KTNQ Los Angeles Radio History)

Scott Mason also worked there before coming to KROQ:

Scott Mason, CBS Radio Exec and Former DJ at KROQ, Dies at 55

The engineering expert spent more than four decades on local radio. He was ‘Spacin’ Scott Mason’ on the air.

www.hollywoodreporter.com

 

[michael hagerty]

And in those few later books, we had the creativity of a bunch of really good Top 40 radio folks, starting with Mike McVay and all these other folks:

1976-1977 Real Don Steele
1976-1977 Chuck Browning
1976-1977 Dave Conley
1976-1978 John Driscoll
1976-1977 Jimi Fox
1976-1977 Rich "Brother" Robbin
1976-1977 Tony Evans
1976-1977 Phil Flowers
1977-1977 Andy Barber
1976-1978 Dave Hume
1976-1978 Joe Nasty
1976-1978 Willie B
1976-1978 Dave Trout (Freddie Snakeskin)
1976-1979 Boyd R. Britton
1977-1979 Charlie Tuna
1977-1980 Beaver Cleaver (Ken Levine)
1978-1979 Mike Carson (Dave Skyler)
1978-1979 Jack Armstrong
1978-1978 "Machine Gun" Kelly
1978-1978 Lou Richards
1978-1978 Gary Cocker
1978-1978 Mike McVay
1978-1979 Dave Sebastian
1978-1979 Jim Conlee
1978-1979 Phil Conrad

(From KTNQ Los Angeles Radio History)

Some of those dates are off. Actually, most of them.

Browning only did the launch. Didn't stick around.

Jimi Fox got blown out after a year.

Rich Brother Robbin stayed seven months.

Tuna didn't arrive until September of '78.

The honest-to-God truth is it was a revolving door. A ton of people in two and a half years---including FOUR PDs.. Nancy Plum (who's not listed there) might have been the only one who made it from start to finish. Maybe Tony Evans.

If I remember correctly, this was the starting lineup (the station launched the day after Christmas, 1976):

6-9 AM: John Driscoll

9AM-Noon: Tony Evans

Noon-3 PM: Willie B

3-6 PM: The Real Don Steele

6-9 PM: Rich Brother Robbin

9 PM-Midnight: Joe Nasty

Midnight-6 AM: Nancy Plum

Weekends/fill-ins: Beaver Cleaver

Rich left in July of '77. Willie B took his place. And Dave Conley took noon-3.

Beaver left around then too, because his workload on M*A*S*H increased in the '76-'77 season. Andy Barber replaced Beaver on weekends and fill-ins.

Jimi Fox was out by December of '77. John Driscoll stepped up as PD and stayed in mornings for three months, then Jackson Armstrong arrived for mornings.

Willie B left in March of '78, and Machine Gun Kelly took that timeslot.

Joe Nasty was right behind Willie and I don't remember who took his timeslot.

Steele quit in June of '78, right after Storer announced its plan to take KTNQ country and do an automated Top 40 on FM (the plan later morphed into a sale of the two stations to two different buyers. Andy Barber moved into afternoons.

Driscoll hits the silk in August of '78 and is replaced as PD by Mike McVay.

Charlie Tuna arrived in September of '78 for mornings and Jackson Armstrong went to afternoons, replacing Andy Barber.

McVay left in February '79 and was replaced as PD by Jim Conlee.

Machine Gun Kelly quit in April of '79. Honestly, I have no idea who replaced him. One of the names from Alex Cosper's list that I haven't mentioned, I'm sure. By that point, they were three months away from going Spanish.

Ironically, April-May '79 was the first book where KTNQ (with a 2.4) was able to beat KHJ and KFI (both with a 2.1). But because of the lag times in those days, nobody saw it until after the format change.

 

[adradio]

I can see why you think that, and it makes logical sense, but AT40's impact in any market was pretty minimal.

While everyone (it seems) heard American Top 40 sometime, it wasn't a show that entire cities listened to all the time. It usually aired in non-prime weekend time slots. Three or four hours out of a 168-hour week. And most of the audience wasn't tuned in for the whole show.

Actually, AT40 played records that weren't getting on the air in a lot of its markets...lemme grab a Whitburn Pop Singles Annual and look at the songs that peaked at #40 during the first half of the 70s, after AT40's launch on July 4, 1970:

Marvin Gaye: The End Of Our Road
Delfonics: Trying To Make A Fool Of Me
Joe Simon: Your Turn To Cry
Yes: Your Move
Ten Years After: I'd Love To Change the World
Four Tops: Just Seven Numbers
Ashton, Gardner and Dyke: Resurrection Shuffle
Fanny: Charity Ball
B.B. King: Ask Me No Questions
Barbra Streisand: Where You Lead
Tommy James: I'm Comin' Home
Beverly Bremers: We're Free
James Brown: King Heroin
Jerry Lee Lewis: Me and Bobby McGee
Elvis Presley: Until It's Time For You To Go
Rod Stewart: Angel
Luther Ingram: I'll Be Your Shelter
Temptations: The Plastic Man
Gunhill Road: Back When My Hair Was Short
El Chicano: Tell Her She's Lovely
Bette Midler: Friends
Curtis Mayfield: Kung Fu
Barry White: I'll Do For You Anything You Want Me To
B.T. Express: Give It What You Got
Marie Osmond: Who's Sorry Now
C.W. McCall: Wolf Creek Pass
Temptations: Happy People
Doobie Brothers: Sweet Maxine

Especially in markets with tight playlists, most weeks, the bottom 20 of American Top 40 was actually adding diversity to what was airing there.

Also, in Los Angeles, Billboard was often weeks behind KHJ and KRLA, which left AT40 with records that were peaking on the Hot 100 that had already burned in L.A. Let's take Don McLean's "American Pie" as an example:

"American Pie" hits #1 in Billboard 25 days after it hits #1 at KHJ---and 11 days after it starts moving back down the chart at KHJ. At this point, KHJ's been playing it for ten weeks. Casey's only been playing it for four.

A month later, "American Pie" is still number one in Billboard and on AT40. It fell off the KHJ playlist that week (February 8).

It's still in AT40's top ten the last week of February. It's still in Casey's top 20 the next to the last week of March, and two weeks after that, he can finally get off it because it drops 22-56.

The biggest factor in the nationwide homogenization of the hits was Bill Drake leaving RKO. As David notes above, Drake (especially in the Ron Jacobs years, but also after) believed in turntable records. His successor, Paul Drew, didn't. Under Paul, it was immediately boiled down to what was selling.

And that affected New York (WXLO), Los Angeles (KHJ), Chicago (WFYR), San Francisco (KFRC), Boston (WRKO) and Memphis (WHBQ). Add that to WABC, which ran between 17 and 22 currents, the "Q" format stations, which tended to play 22-25 and the stations Paul was consulting before he got the RKO gig, and most of the influential Top 40 stations in the country were, by mid-1973, waiting for records to become undeniable hits rather than trying to break them in their markets.




And yes, absolutely. That pretty well killed off the markets and stations that were still taking chances and breaking records. The only exceptions I can think of past that were KROQ under Rick Carroll (spawned a few CHR hits), and Guy Zapoleon at KRQ in Tucson and KZZP in Phoenix.

Interesting list. I recall from my days listening to KFRC that these songs below were definitely played and had decent chart positions on the KFRC Big 30 Surveys:

Ashton, Gardner and Dyke: Resurrection Shuffle
Barbra Streisand: Where You Lead
El Chicano: Tell Her She's Lovely

AT40 took awhile to catch on in San Francisco. I believe it was more mid '70s.

 

[davideduardo]

AT40 took awhile to catch on in San Francisco. I believe it was more mid '70s.

Remember that AT 40 was set up for two purposes: a no-cost mostly Sunday morning or evening show that avoided sometimes dreadful part timers and a sales "hook" that allowed sale of some very hard to sell pieces of Sunday.

 

[davideduardo]

Some of those dates are off. Actually, most of them.

Thanks for the precise dates... my point was to show some petty good talent but a less than stable management and staff.

 

[johndavis]

KZZP was early on a lot of records under Guy Zapoleon and maintained that approach for a couple of years after he left. Beyond that, Guy took records that labels weren't even working and made them local hits in Phoenix. Sometimes the labels took that as evidence that they should work the record nationally.

Some other dynamics at play at KZZP: the Friday night Hot Mix show (which before becoming syndicated, started at KOPA and moved to KZZP when KOPA flipped to Classic Rock) and the Saturday Night Party Patrol show. Club records would get airplay on Hot Mix before becoming CHR singles because they were working in the local clubs, and Party Patrol gave them license to play a lot of things on the fringe that caught on and ended up getting airplay the rest of the week (Sir Mix A Lot's Square Dance Rap would be an example of this, at least for a song dayparted to nights). But you wouldn't necessarily see these reported to the trades. Trans-X/Living On Video would be another song that started on the weekend shows and grew out from there.

At a station that competed with KZZP, besides callout, we called record stores in town to find out what was selling (this was before BDS), and was part of a local record pool (club jocks sharing records) to try and figure out what was hot.

Guy had an ear. This is the man who took a vacation in Hawaii, heard a Hawaiian artist getting airplay while there, buying the record to take home and then powered it into Glen Medieros into getting a major record deal. KZZP always played the original mix of Nothing's Gonna Change My Love For You from Hawaii as opposed to the remixed version (the new label added horns) that was serviced to everyone else.

The difference I see between then and now is that weekends (being "non prime") is now where we either put voicetracked shifts or syndicated shows, which aren't going to break any new music instead of using the non-prime aspect of the time period to test out and break new music. If we treated 7pm - 7am and the weekend as an opportunity to experiment again, we might actually get respect from people under 35 again.

Let's imagine pitching "Party Patrol" to a GM today. Yeah, I need the budget to pay 3 or 4 part-timers every Saturday night for 6 hours plus gas money and a s-load of t-shirts so I can replace this automated show that we get off barter...

 

[davideduardo]

Let's imagine pitching "Party Patrol" to a GM today. Yeah, I need the budget to pay 3 or 4 part-timers every Saturday night for 6 hours plus gas money and a s-load of t-shirts so I can replace this automated show that we get off barter...

There is another factor here: stations make no money from nights and little from weekends unless they are in much smaller markets that have little agency business. That was not the case decades ago. Then you have the situation that radio revenue, adjusted for inflation, is off by over 60% since Y2K.

If agencies and bigger clients only buy 6 AM to 7 PM, they don’t look at the 6 to Midnight numbers so doing a tiny bit better at night has no value.

We are seeing the general public moving away from ad supported media, both on radio and TV. Radio is not going to “come back” with Party Patrol and stuff that worked when there were no alternatives and “everyone” listened to the radio a lot.

 

[johndavis]

There is another factor here: stations make no money from nights and little from weekends unless they are in much smaller markets that have little agency business. That was not the case decades ago. Then you have the situation that radio revenue, adjusted for inflation, is off by over 60% since Y2K.

If agencies and bigger clients only buy 6 AM to 7 PM, they don’t look at the 6 to Midnight numbers so doing a tiny bit better at night has no value.

We are seeing the general public moving away from ad supported media, both on radio and TV. Radio is not going to “come back” with Party Patrol and stuff that worked when there were no alternatives and “everyone” listened to the radio a lot.

Revenues falling off a cliff is exactly why we are here: we're not investing in developing talent (of note, Kevin and Bean became a team after hosting that Saturday night show, leading Kevin Weatherly to bring them with him to LA.) because we barely have the budget to staff the station during "prime" hours.

But I think it also starts to be a chicken/egg kind of question. Is the public not using media outside of prime because they don't want to use media, or are they not using media because the programming sucks outside of prime?

And with less talent being developed in the non-prime hours because we're running canned stuff, where do we find the next generation talent as the old folks retire?

I can't answer these questions, just as I can't answer the 'how do you fix revenue' question. But this is the state of the industry right now.

 

[TheBigA]

But I think it also starts to be a chicken/egg kind of question. Is the public not using media outside of prime because they don't want to use media, or are they not using media because the programming sucks outside of prime?

Night listening outside of prime time has been low for a very long time. The reason is because people have lots of competing options at that time. For example, TV, live sports events, concerts, shopping, dining out with friends, and lots of social activities. The other factor is advertisers aren't buying time between 6PM and 6AM. That's not new either.

This idea of "radio investing in talent" is also a misnomer. No one ever sent me to a talent school or a consultant to teach me how to be on the radio. The investment must come from the talent itself. They need to attend Morning Show Boot Camp or other talent conventions around the country. The PD expects you to know what to do. That's why he hired you. The PD will tell you if he hears something he doesn't like. He may come up with a pairing of personalities, as you talk about with Kevin & Bean. But he's not going to come up with funny bits for the talent or tell them what to say.

 

[johndavis]

This idea of "radio investing in talent" is also a misnomer. No one ever sent me to a talent school or a consultant to teach me how to be on the radio. The investment must come from the talent itself. They need to attend Morning Show Boot Camp or other talent conventions around the country. The PD expects you to know what to do. That's why he hired you.

Here's what I mean by investing in talent:

You need to suck before you learn to be great. You don't just walk into Morning Show Boot Camp and walk out as BJ Shea or Dave Ryan. You have to do the work, and the more you do it the better you get.

With fewer weekend shifts available, fewer small market gigs available, virtually no overnight gigs available, there are very few places where you can start in the business and learn so you will actually know what to do when you get to the majors, because as you point out, nobody sends you to talent school, they just throw you behind a mic and tell you to "follow the book, follow the log, and don't f--- up." (those were the instructions given to me on my first air shift)

When we stopped filling those non-prime hours with live bodies, we stopped investing in talent.

As a result, we now have people on the air in major markets in morning drive who frankly suck at radio, and PDs are having to coach them on the fundamentals that you used to have to coach the overnight jock on before they were good enough to get a daylight gig somewhere else.

That's sacrificing your product because you're not investing in talent. We reap what we sow.

 

[TheBigA]

Here's what I mean by investing in talent:

You need to suck before you learn to be great. You don't just walk into Morning Show Boot Camp and walk out as BJ Shea or Dave Ryan. You have to do the work, and the more you do it the better you get.

You realize people can practice at home? I know a well-known sportscaster who, as a kid, brought a tape recorder to high school basketball games and practiced his play by play. Invest in yourself. Radio stations are not sandboxes. You need to have your act together BEFORE you get hired, not after.

 

[johndavis]

You realize people can practice at home? I know a well-known sportscaster who, as a kid, brought a tape recorder to high school basketball games and practiced his play by play. Invest in yourself. Radio stations are not sandboxes. You need to have your act together BEFORE you get hired, not after.

Sure. Pretty much anyone who has done pxp does that.
Then they get a job calling high school sports. Then they take that and call college games. Then they can take a crack at the minors or majors.

They don't get from calling a game into a recorder for themselves to LA without doing the work, and they were coached along the way.

An athlete can do all the workouts on their own if they want, but without someone to correct their form when they are wrong, they'll just reinforce bad habits. And even in major markets, good PDs aircheck their talent and coach them. It's part of the gig.

When we automated weekends and overnights, we took away opportunities to develop talent.

 

[gr8oldies]

You realize people can practice at home? I know a well-known sportscaster who, as a kid, brought a tape recorder to high school basketball games and practiced his play by play. Invest in yourself. Radio stations are not sandboxes. You need to have your act together BEFORE you get hired, not after.

There is YouTube, tiktok, Instagram, the Improv stage (under-utilized), podcasts and many more ways to develop your act. No one is going to hire you to play the hits on the all-night show in Fargo, however.

 

[davideduardo]

Revenues falling off a cliff is exactly why we are here: we're not investing in developing talent (of note, Kevin and Bean became a team after hosting that Saturday night show, leading Kevin Weatherly to bring them with him to LA.) because we barely have the budget to staff the station during "prime" hours.

Radio’s decline began well before the advent of the smartphone. National billing was declining from around 2000 and 2001 just due to the rise of portable MP3 devices and the Internet in general. But around 2008 we had a big recession, the advent of the smartphone and the PPM (which showed average AQH listening levels about 30% lower than the diary) .

So radio had much less income to deal with and that was 15 years ago. Add in inflation since then and increases in costs of operation and we have over a 60% decline in revenue.

But I think it also starts to be a chicken/egg kind of question. Is the public not using media outside of prime because they don't want to use media, or are they not using media because the programming sucks outside of prime?

Actually, the PPM showed higher night and weekend usage of radio…but not enough for advertisers to complicate buys looking for those stations with a big evening audience. One of radio’s biggest sales problems is it is hard to buy… local stations, each different and a need to negotiate one by one the buys.

And with less talent being developed in the non-prime hours because we're running canned stuff, where do we find the next generation talent as the old folks retire?

Do what most of the rest of the world does…national sets of simulcast stations with prime talent.

I can't answer these questions, just as I can't answer the 'how do you fix revenue' question. But this is the state of the industry right now.

That is the state of all advertising supported media. Radio, TV, newspapers, magazines all are suffering from a weak ad market due to the pandemic and a mini-recession that has people having less discretionary incomes.