Saving AM Radio

[Mark Roberts]

Post #961. If this thread reaches a thousand, can it be renamed "Shaving AM Radio"?

 

[radiofan2023]

Post #961. If this thread reaches a thousand, can it be renamed "Shaving AM Radio"?

Only if the ghost of Sean Connery shows up

 

[yeoldeschool]

We have to find the solution to saving AM by post 1710, or we'll have to give up and change the conversation to saving shortwave.

 

[wadio]

Post #961. If this thread reaches a thousand, can it be renamed "Shaving AM Radio"?

I think Post #950 might be the longest post I've ever seen!

 

[BruceB]

This thread might last longer than AM Radio

 

[kwthom]

This thread might last longer than AM Radio

Hand-wringing and pearl-clutching will save it.

 

[davideduardo]

The issue here is whether a cell phone manufacturer will voluntarily direct users to AM radio. Given that prior experience, I have no reason to believe those companies have any interest in directing users of their phones to AM radio or any other service.

As has been suggested, this would have to be part of the EAS / government system, requiring either an FCC ruling or legislation. This is not a "selling point" for telephone manufacturers as it does not have immediate added value to most consumers.

This is more like putting a "don't drink this" on a bottle of toilet bowl cleaner.

 

[davideduardo]

It does not matter whether or not there are others like yourself who will listen "if the music is there". Radio is still in the advertising business and -- as has been pointed out over and over in hundreds of threads across RD -- the audience for music from the Big Band era is not one that is saleable.

And it is not a genre of music that could generate support for listener supported stations, either.

And before you claim that I am motivated by personal taste, I also like music from the Swing era. I just can't make a living programming it.

Nor can any of us.

 

[Kelly A]

I get it, Kelly, but in the immediate timeframe, there are still enough people living without smartphones (primarily elderly) to make it worth one person per shift's time to have training in manning a basic booth at one emergency office per county in the event of turbo-emergencies.

Radio stations nor EMS services can staff some form of Medic Alert exclusively for seniors who might be sitting in front of the radio. As I mentioned; EMS services can't always come up with a plan to broadcast for an unexpected event. Most times it takes a while for a plan, and usually that plan is deployed at the site of the incident. You ignored my Hawaii example, but that's an excellent and recent one.

When the cable system and the copper landline go out to someone's grandmother's rural home and she's sitting in her wingchair with a battery radio trying to find information, and can only get George Noory and automated classic country stations, that's a problem.

That's the reality, and why emergency management sends alerts via cell phone or Sherrif vehicle's PA systems rather than activate EAS. It covers more people than radio.

 

[yeoldeschool]

Radio stations nor EMS services can staff some form of Medic Alert exclusively for seniors who might be sitting in front of the radio. As I mentioned; EMS services can't always come up with a plan to broadcast for an unexpected event. Most times it takes a while for a plan, and usually that plan is deployed at the site of the incident. You ignored my Hawaii example, but that's an excellent and recent one.

I didn't respond to the Hawaii example because I just didn't agree that it was a good one. For one, that firestorm was a highly unique circumstance, a virtual flashover event at its outset, and most emergencies don't unfold so fast that they force civil servants to scramble faster than they can issue alerts. (Those fires spread so fast initially, the officials didn't even activate the local siren network. And those don't take any planning -- just someone slamming their palm down on a big red button when they see SHTF.) So on the first point, I don't think Hawaii is representative of most scenarios, because in most scenarios, there actually is time. Second, and this being the most important, as the fires continued, the cellular service did begin going FUBAR, unbeknownst to the civil responders, which were, by then, sending alerts -- alerts never received by many cellular users because, as myself, David, and others were saying earlier, cell networks go to hell in disasters. Sources:

https://www.npr.org/2023/08/14/1193...-difference-it-could-have-made-against-maui-f

During natural disasters — including wildfires — Maui County said the sirens are designed to blast a steady three-minute tone to inform the public to seek further instructions on their local radio or television station. But ahead of the historic fires last week, the sirens were silent. The Hawaii Emergency Management Agency's spokesman, Adam Weintraub, confirmed to NPR that local officials did not activate the siren system. He was not able to give a reason as to why but emphasized that three other warning systems were used, such as alerts to cellphones and through TV and radio stations. Weintraub added the speed and size of the catastrophe was unforeseeable. [...] But some residents say they did not receive any alerts on the first day of the fires and argue that the sirens could have made a difference. [...] Maui sent emergency alerts to cellphones, TVs and radio stations ahead of the wildfires but some residents say they never received any alerts because of poor service or lack of cable TV — which is why DeYoung argues for a multi-tiered warning system. "It's better to give people more information than not enough," DeYoung said.

https://apnews.com/article/hawaii-maui-wildfire-cell-phones-lawsuit-7133f9c5aa956f7f9c5f40084b94491b

HONOLULU (AP) — Had emergency responders known about widespread cellphone outages during the height of last summer’s deadly Maui wildfires, they would have used other methods to warn about the disaster, county officials said in a lawsuit. Alerts the county sent to cellphones warning people to immediately evacuate were never received, unbeknownst to the county, the lawsuit said. Maui officials failed to activate sirens that would have warned the entire population of the approaching flames. That has raised questions about whether everything was done to alert the public in a state that possesses an elaborate emergency warning system for a variety of dangers including wars, volcanoes, hurricanes and wildfires. Major cellular carriers were negligent in failing to properly inform Maui police of widespread service outages, county officials said in the lawsuit filed Wednesday in state court against Verizon Wireless, T-Mobile USA, Spectrum Mobile and AT&T.

Anyway, I mean no hostility, but you're characterizing EAS almost like an outmoded crutch for a pesky geriatric fringe being provided as an undeserved luxury at the expense of those who have more dire things to attend. I finished my last post by reiterating that alerts by radio become relevant to all people when radio becomes the last man standing. Despite Hawaii's civil people failing to issue any warnings at the firestorm's outset, alerts eventually were issued, and by the time they were going out, this exact last man standing scenario was taking place, with the alternatives -- cell towers and cable lines -- now melting in the blaze. Just one old fogey living on a road with no working cable and zero bars, glued to "Rat Pack 1360" and hearing an EAS activation, could've shuffled outside and pounded on a single neighbor's door, starting a cascade of neighbors door-knocking each other to evacuate.

[...] Sherrif vehicle's PA systems rather than activate EAS. It covers more people than radio.

Fair enough example versus radio, but only on streets squad cars are available to drive the lengths of. On streets they don't have the manpower to cover, when the cable and cell towers are dead, Gramps toe-tapping along to 1360 kilocycles or Ma Kettle watching her stories on "MeTV" are who end up saving the rest of the street's life.

 

[Kelly A]

I didn't respond to the Hawaii example because I just didn't agree that it was a good one. For one, that firestorm was a highly unique circumstance, a virtual flashover event at its outset, and most emergencies don't unfold so fast that they force civil servants to scramble faster than they can issue alerts. (Those fires spread so fast initially, the officials didn't even activate the local siren network. And those don't take any planning -- just someone slamming their palm down on a big red button when they see SHTF.) So on the first point, I don't think Hawaii is representative of most scenarios, because in most scenarios, there actually is time.

Unlike you, since I own a condo in Hawaii, I'm familiar with the situation and know several folks who lost their homes because of the fires. I'm not sure how one could disagree with a recent example like what happened in Lahaina, HI. Most natural or man-made disasters are a complete surprise, catching EMS services off guard. What, you think a train derailment when it happens is expected? I suspect you only disagree because it conflicts with your narrative of how EAS should work.
Regarding the siren issue in Maui; Those sirens are for residents to alert in case of a potential Tsunami to follow evacuation routes to higher ground. Had local authorities sounded the sirens during the fire, even more residents would have followed those routes straight into the flames. Radio stations were on the air at the time, but no information was coming out of local authorities, because they literally didn't know what to tell people.

Anyway, I mean no hostility, but you're characterizing EAS almost like an outmoded crutch for a pesky geriatric fringe being provided as an undeserved luxury at the expense of those who have more dire things to attend.

I'm just telling you the reality of the situation. Radio stations aren't staffed 24/7, and as BigA already pointed out, stations aren't the ones who activate EAS anyway. Local and state authorities do. Even if there were someone on duty at a radio or TV station, they need to wait until information is fed to them. Anything else would be making things up and putting members of the general public at risk. Local municipalities and EMS services don't focus on any one demographic. Their job is to assess the situation and guide the general public toward the safest course of action when one becomes available. Mostly that guidance is done from a command post closest to the situation, not from the dispatch center where EAS encoding would happen. And as Scott and I already mentioned, activating EAS in a stressful and safety-threatening situation is way down the priority list for most EMS services. Just because you and a few radio nerds think it's important, doesn't mean it is. Most municipalities have long stopped training and testing EAS in their operations.

I finished my last post by reiterating that alerts by radio become relevant to all people when radio becomes the last man standing. Despite Hawaii's civil people failing to issue any warnings at the firestorm's outset, alerts eventually were issued, and by the time they were going out, this exact last man standing scenario was taking place, with the alternatives -- cell towers and cable lines -- now melting in the blaze. Just one old fogey living on a road with no working cable and zero bars, glued to "Rat Pack 1360" and hearing an EAS activation, could've shuffled outside and pounded on a single neighbor's door, starting a cascade of neighbors door-knocking each other to evacuate.

But that's typical. If a senior is listening to Rat Pack 360 but EAS isn't being activated by the City/County/State, then they won't hear it, will they?

Fair enough example versus radio, but only on streets squad cars are available to drive the lengths of. On streets they don't have the manpower to cover, when the cable and cell towers are dead, Gramps toe-tapping along to 1360 kilocycles or Ma Kettle watching her stories on "MeTV" are who end up saving the rest of the street's life.

And again like in Lahaina, several older folks ended up burning to death in their homes or cars trying the escape via the only two roads out. Cell service was diminished but working from the adjacent hilltops, but 911 operators could only recommend residents go toward the Pacific and jump in. Sure, you could come up with infinite scenarios of how radio and EAS might be used, but the reality is it's an outdated, outmoded, and unreliable form of alerting that should not be relied on during immediate crises.

 

[yeoldeschool]

I'm not sure how one could disagree with a recent example like what happened in Lahaina, HI.

I did my best to explain how in my last post.

Most natural or man-made disasters are a complete surprise, catching EMS services off guard. What, you think a train derailment when it happens is expected?

This is tortured logic. Responders aren't required to be clairvoyant and therefore neither are their EAS alerts required to be to have merit. EAS exists to forewarn people about predictable imminent dangers (i.e. tornado weather) as much as about events that have already occurred so people not already harmed at their epicenters can still get out of the paths of their wakes and not be "next." In your train derailment example, for instance, EAS would save lives by telling people if a toxic aerosol plume was slowly drifting across the city from the direction of the mangled rail cars.

Should ShakeAlert be scrapped because it only warns people who're distant from an earthquake's epicenter, and because it's useless to anyone sitting right on top of it?

I suspect you only disagree because it conflicts with your narrative of how EAS should work.

I'm not the EAS Defense Force and am not pushing a narrative. I see ways EAS can save people from harm, even over radio and linear TV, and am describing them since you were posting about your conviction that it's of little value on those mediums.

Regarding the siren issue in Maui; Those sirens are for residents to alert in case of a potential Tsunami to follow evacuation routes to higher ground. Had local authorities sounded the sirens during the fire, even more residents would have followed those routes straight into the flames.

That I didn't know. One of the articles I quoted for you said they were specifically also for "wildfires." So I concluded the sirens must have worked like the kind in the tornado prone midwest (loud attention siren sound effects interspersed with bullhorned voice announcements). You know, like "a firestorm is coming, go toward the ocean immediately."

I'm just telling you the reality of the situation. Radio stations aren't staffed 24/7, and as BigA already pointed out, stations aren't the ones who activate EAS anyway. Local and state authorities do. Even if there were someone on duty at a radio or TV station, they need to wait until information is fed to them. Anything else would be making things up and putting members of the general public at risk.

That's why I chimed into this subject in the first place with the idea of augmenting EAS so automated stations could be taken over when a type of emergency was happening where that would benefit people. Said type being when failures were occurring with alternate (better) channels of communication like the cellular network and people would be predictably falling back to searching radio for ongoing updates. Because I agree with your last two sentences, and if those alternate (better) channels were down in an entirely automated radio/TV market, that EAS augmentation would become the only way people could keep abreast of things the local civil people wanted them to know.

Local municipalities and EMS services don't focus on any one demographic.

I keep saying EAS would benefit everybody, not just one demographic (fossilized linear media exclusivists), the minute the alternatives went down and radio became the last man standing. Most people keep emergency kits in their homes and portable solar/battery/crank radios are almost always in them. And if not there, an old table radio or car radio is usually close at hand. There's a social expectation that when the other avenues of communication are down, radio will be the conduit for emergency what-to-do "play by play" narratives from officials, and in fully automated markets, a long-form remote takeover capacity is the only way that expectation could be fulfilled. (If every market had at keast one 24/7-staffed KNX and the regular EAS messages could all just end with "tune to 1070 for more updates on this unfolding emergency if you can't get them by other means," my idea would be unnecessary.)

Mostly that guidance is done from a command post closest to the situation, not from the dispatch center where EAS encoding would happen. And as Scott and I already mentioned, activating EAS in a stressful and safety-threatening situation is way down the priority list for most EMS services.

In the initial timeframes of disasters like the Hawaii firestorm, yes, but I'd say that's not true whatsoever in many other cases -- like the toxic plume one from your example train derailment.

Most municipalities have long stopped training and testing EAS in their operations.

I think that should be reversed.

But that's typical. If a senior is listening to Rat Pack 360 but EAS isn't being activated by the City/County/State, then they won't hear it, will they?

Which is why they should always activate it so they always will. Especially if the popular venues for warnings are suffering full or partial outages and more than seniors are searching for info.. And even more so than that, when, as the officials in one of those articles attested, they couldn't tell that cell outages were happening. We need redundancy even on a presumptive basis.

Sure, you could come up with infinite scenarios of how radio and EAS might be used, but the reality is it's an outdated, outmoded, and unreliable form of alerting that should not be relied on during immediate crises.

We should rely on at least one method of communication managing to reach every person possible. To maximize that outcome, EAS alerts are needed on radio and lienar TV and station takeover should be possible in fully automated markets for certain types of emergencies.

 

[davideduardo]

We should rely on at least one method of communication managing to reach every person possible. To maximize that outcome, EAS alerts are needed on radio and lienar TV and station takeover should be possible in fully automated markets for certain types of emergencies.

EAS is, by definition, a take-over system. The activation seizes content on all stations and broadcasts alerts.

Perhaps one of the folks involved in the technical side today can give further details of how it works, as I have been mostly in programming and management for the last several decades.

 

[yeoldeschool]

EAS is, by definition, a take-over system. The activation seizes content on all stations and broadcasts alerts.

My wording wasn't clear there. It should have read:

To maximize that outcome, EAS alerts are needed on radio and lienar TV and long-form station takeover should be possible in fully automated markets for certain types of emergencies.

Perhaps one of the folks involved in the technical side today can give further details of how it works, as I have been mostly in programming and management for the last several decades.

I welcome that too. My EAS inner workings knowledge dates to the days of Yahoo groups, Usenet, and listservs.

 

[K.M. Richards]

My wording wasn't clear there. It should have read:

To maximize that outcome, EAS alerts are needed on radio and lienar TV and long-form station takeover should be possible in fully automated markets for certain types of emergencies.

An "actual emergency" activation of EAS stays in effect until either the local station overrides it or the activating authority issues the tone sequence that ends it, automatically restoring station programming feeds.

 

[boombox4]

Well, right now we have just experienced a hurricane hitting a major state with a fairly large storm surge. How effective were the emergency communication systems (cell, radio, etc.)?

 

[K.M. Richards]

Well, right now we have just experienced a hurricane hitting a major state with a fairly large storm surge. How effective were the emergency communication systems (cell, radio, etc.)?

After any such emergency, the FCC requires stations in the affected areas to report such things. But you aren't going to get that in real time because the Commission realizes that filling out reports cannot be a priority while the emergency is in progress.

 

[Kelly A]

This is tortured logic. Responders aren't required to be clairvoyant and therefore neither are their EAS alerts required to be to have merit. EAS exists to forewarn people about predictable imminent dangers (i.e. tornado weather) as much as about events that have already occurred so people not already harmed at their epicenters can still get out of the paths of their wakes and not be "next."

But EAS does exactly that with NOAA weather alerts via unmanned radio stations all the time. I also get NOAA EAS alerts via my smartphone. What you're talking about isn't different than what already happens.

In your train derailment example, for instance, EAS would save lives by telling people if a toxic aerosol plume was slowly drifting across the city from the direction of the mangled rail cars.

But again, the reality is: The train derails, local EMS evaluates the spill or danger, and then evacuates the affected, or potentially affected area in the actual area. All this preparing a script to be relayed via EAS using some dispatcher who was either never trained, or has forgotten how to activate via what code, is a huge waste of time. Meanwhile, the dispatcher is swamped with 911 calls and messages from the field. With all that multitasking, the wrong code could be sent, or they flub the activation. Time is of the essence. You may as well stick someone with a bullhorn on horseback to relay the message because it would be faster and more effective than trying to activate EAS.

Should ShakeAlert be scrapped because it only warns people who're distant from an earthquake's epicenter, and because it's useless to anyone sitting right on top of it?

If it already works in the community and can be automated, why would I recommend scrapping it? I've never called to scrap any messaging. I'm just saying that this fallacy of some radio nerds and senior citizens that Les Nessman is waiting by the mic to jump into action telling the general public what to do, is a false narrative that does not apply in the real world.

I'm not the EAS Defense Force and am not pushing a narrative. I see ways EAS can save people from harm, even over radio and linear TV, and am describing them since you were posting about your conviction that it's of little value on those mediums.

You and about six other folks on this site who likely haven't been to meetings with municipalities or EMS services on how emergency planning is being done.

That I didn't know. One of the articles I quoted for you said they were specifically also for "wildfires." So I concluded the sirens must have worked like the kind in the tornado prone midwest (loud attention siren sound effects interspersed with bullhorned voice announcements). You know, like "a firestorm is coming, go toward the ocean immediately."

So, the siren goes off. Does that mean I should follow the tsunami evacuation route per the signs all over town? Or does it mean grassfires are sending embers supercharged by hurricane-force winds spreading all over the tarpaper roofs on downtown buildings? Hmm... Eeenie, meenie, miney, mo.
I mean, come on dude...

That's why I chimed into this subject in the first place with the idea of augmenting EAS so automated stations could be taken over when a type of emergency was happening where that would benefit people.

That's great. Who's going to be waiting for the local authorities to specifically write an appropriate script, set the correct alert code, and then read the script via interruptions to local stations? Are you going to pay for that?

Said type being when failures were occurring with alternate (better) channels of communication like the cellular network and people would be predictably falling back to searching radio for ongoing updates. Because I agree with your last two sentences, and if those alternate (better) channels were down in an entirely automated radio/TV market, that EAS augmentation would become the only way people could keep abreast of things the local civil people wanted them to know.

As has been discussed many times with some who share your optimism: Typical media consumers don't have portable radios sitting around with batteries anymore. That stopped being a thing twenty or more years ago. Most normal folks rely on smartphones, not radio.

I keep saying EAS would benefit everybody, not just one demographic (fossilized linear media exclusivists), the minute the alternatives went down and radio became the last man standing. Most people keep emergency kits in their homes and portable solar/battery/crank radios are almost always in them.

Not to be unkind, but what world do you live in? I'll guarantee the vast majority of U.S. citizens don't have any of those things. None. People have their cell phones. If the phone stops working, they crawl up into a fetal position and wait for it to start working again. Portable crank-up radios? Emergency kits??
I hope you're kidding.

And if not there, an old table radio or car radio is usually close at hand.

No, that's not the reality of today. Cold War thinking ended thirty years ago.

There's a social expectation that when the other avenues of communication are down, radio will be the conduit for emergency what-to-do "play by play" narratives from officials, and in fully automated markets, a long-form remote takeover capacity is the only way that expectation could be fulfilled. (If every market had at keast one 24/7-staffed KNX and the regular EAS messages could all just end with "tune to 1070 for more updates on this unfolding emergency if you can't get them by other means," my idea would be unnecessary.)

That's the way EAS is set up now, but if Local/State/or City services aren't sending a message, there is nothing to broadcast.
Why is it I feel like I'm trying to explain reality to another Kirk?

 

[boombox4]

I think Kelly makes some good points here. Even in regions where the emergency is somewhat expected -- where, as in the location where I live, it's not a matter of if but when -- like volcano / earthquake / tsunami territory, probably the majority of people don't have any sort of emergency supplies, be it food, medicine, grab-and-go-bag, radio, spare flashlights, anything.

Periodically, at least up to a year ago, I'd hear PSA's on the radio about preparedness for disasters, with 'have a plan, have a grab-and-go bag with supplies' etc., but I haven't heard one of those in well over a year, and whether any of those PSA spots made a dent in the consciousness of the average radio listener I have no idea. And if someone isn't a radio listener, they obviously didn't hear them.

I don't watch TV, so I don't know if those sorts of PSA's (or the TV equivalent) were ever on there, but I never see them on the internet. Some YT vids might have a preparedness guy selling emergency food or something. Basically selling stuff to preppers, who are a small minority of people. That's about it.

I doubt anyone on my street has any of those things, although a couple may have radios in their houses, and most probably have radios in their cars. The two hams in the neighborhood may or may not have 2 Meter handhelds, which are probably next to useless in an emergency. It's cellphone or nothing, unless the individual decides to stock ahead and/or prepare.

 

[vchimpanzee]

EAS is, by definition, a take-over system. The activation seizes content on all stations and broadcasts alerts.

Perhaps one of the folks involved in the technical side today can give further details of how it works, as I have been mostly in programming and management for the last several decades.

Even if I am watching a recorded program on a TiVo, an emergency alert can take over my TV if the TV gets its programming from cable.