HD subchannels with high ratings

[yeoldeschool]

In cities like Los Angeles and New York, HD subchannels never seem to get more than a 0.1.

What explains markets like these (especially the second one), where they are rating astonishingly well? Aren't HD radios themselves supposed to be so scarce, these kinds of numbers would be impossible?

https://ratings.****************/cgi-bin/rol.exe/arb135
https://ratings.****************/cgi-bin/rol.exe/arb257

 

[fybush]

We have had this same conversation more times than I can count, and the answers are always the same:

1. When you see an HD subchannel with high numbers, you're seeing listening happening on translators as well as the HD2/3.

2. HD radios are not scarce. It's 2024. They're standard equipment in many new car brands and by most estimates there's now at least 1 in 4 cars on the road (maybe even 1 in 3) equipped with HD.

Is there anything else new to add to this same old same old?

 

[XMportable]

I don't listen to FM radio at all locally. I stream music in my car or stream my favorite stations that aren't even in my current location.

 

[boombox4]

We have had this same conversation more times than I can count, and the answers are always the same:

1. When you see an HD subchannel with high numbers, you're seeing listening happening on translators as well as the HD2/3.

2. HD radios are not scarce. It's 2024. They're standard equipment in many new car brands and by most estimates there's now at least 1 in 4 cars on the road (maybe even 1 in 3) equipped with HD.

Is there anything else new to add to this same old same old?

FWIW, this is the first time I've seen these explanations, or seen a thread where such high numbers were shown for HD2's & HD3's.

 

[K.M. Richards]

When you see an HD subchannel with high numbers, you're seeing listening happening on translators as well as the HD2/3.

Case in point, Scott. Albuquerque is obviously a market I know well, as I have been programming Don Davis' KRKE for two years as of tomorrow.

Here are the HD stations that show up in the 12+ numbers, and the associated analog translators:
KBQI-HD2 (K251AU, "98.1 The Bull")
KABG-HD2 (K275AO, repeater for KJFA-FM Santa Fe, "Fuego 102.9")
KZRR-HD2 (K265CA, "Power 100.9")
KANW-HD2 (K298BY, part of a trimulcast -- translators in ABQ, Grants, and Española -- of a news/talk format which they refer to simply as "KANW-2")

Hope that serves as a good real-world example.

 

[Wolfie770]

Pride Radio (KDWB-HD2) is a 0.2 sometimes here, and they have no translator. Neither does "The Ice" on KMOJ-HD2.

KQQL HD-2 BIN (W227BF, 93.3) and KQQL-HD3 KFAN+ (K224FE, 96.7) and KTCZ-HD3 Hot 102.5 (K273BH, 102.5) show up higher sometimes, but, like was said, more ppl are probably listening to the 93.3, 96.7 & 102.5 translators than the HD-2 or HD-3 Signals of these subchannels.

 

[Huff]

HD subchannels with high ratings is a mutually exclusive term - at least HD subchannels that aren't simulcast on a translator.
In 14+ years of PPM data across 48 markets (nearly 10,000 surveys), no HD-only channel has registered any higher than a 0.8 share, anything more than a low tenths is exceedingly rare.

 

[K6JHU]

Case in point, Scott. Albuquerque is obviously a market I know well, as I have been programming Don Davis' KRKE for two years as of tomorrow.

Here are the HD stations that show up in the 12+ numbers, and the associated analog translators:
KBQI-HD2 (K251AU, "98.1 The Bull")
KABG-HD2 (K275AO, repeater for KJFA-FM Santa Fe, "Fuego 102.9")
KZRR-HD2 (K265CA, "Power 100.9")
KANW-HD2 (K298BY, part of a trimulcast -- translators in ABQ, Grants, and Española -- of a news/talk format which they refer to simply as "KANW-2")

Hope that serves as a good real-world example.

Now if only KABG-HD3 would show up in the ratings

 

[PTBoardOp93]

What explains markets like these (especially the second one), where they are rating astonishingly well? Aren't HD radios themselves supposed to be so scarce, these kinds of numbers would be impossible?

Austin TX has 3.8 shares total for all -HD2 and HD3. Disregarding the analog rebroadcasts....

No, it is not impossible for a medium with a limited number of receivers to have 3.8 shares. Xperi claims more than 100 million vehicles have been sold with HD Radio technology. While not a ton of HD tuners have been sold not attached to four wheels, 100 million is somewhere around 25-30% of all cars on the road, as Fybush alluded to. That means there are plenty of receivers to make 3.8% plausible, even in the absence of analog translators.

HD Radio's In-Car Growth Hits New Benchmark, Reports Xperi - Radio Ink

It's another major milestone for radio in the dash as Xperi announced HD Radio receivers are now in more than 100 million vehicles, as reported alongside their 2023 Q3 financial earnings. The company saw a revenue increase to $130.4 million.

radioink.com

 

[davideduardo]

Austin TX has 3.8 shares total for all -HD2 and HD3. Disregarding the analog rebroadcasts....

Nielsen does not separate translators from the station or HD channel they rebroadcast. Translators are considered by Nielsen to be a 100% simulcast of the licensed facility and are never shown separately.

No, it is not impossible for a medium with a limited number of receivers to have 3.8 shares. Xperi claims more than 100 million vehicles have been sold with HD Radio technology. While not a ton of HD tuners have been sold not attached to four wheels, 100 million is somewhere around 25-30% of all cars on the road, as Fybush alluded to. That means there are plenty of receivers to make 3.8% plausible, even in the absence of analog translators.

HD channels that do not have a translator are shown separately if they meet the minimum reporting standards. As Huff mentioned in post #7 of this thread, few stand-alone HD channels without associated translators have ever shown up in the Nielsen reports and the highest ever for one was a 0.8 while most are in the 0.1 to 0.3 if they ever show up.

 

[Huff]

Austin TX has 3.8 shares total for all -HD2 and HD3. Disregarding the analog rebroadcasts....

Those HD2s and HD3s are all total simulcasts on translators. Translators do not show up separately in Nielsen, but if they are simulcasting an HD, the credit will go to that HD channel, regardless of whether someone is listening to the HD or the translator.

1.3... KBPA-HD2 simulcasts on K274AX and is branded as "ESPN 102.7"
0.8... KKMJ-HD3 simulcasts on K240EL and is branded as "95.9 Texas Country"
0.6... KGSR-HD2 simulcasts on K246BD and is branded as "Latino 97.1"
0.4... KASE-HD2 simulcasts on K248CU and is branded as "Alt 97.5"
0.3... KHFI-HD2 simulcasts on K276EL and is branded as "103.1 Austin's 80s Station"

These HD channels are all focused on their translators, as indicated by their branding. They may receive some incidental listening from the HD channels, but the vast majority of their listening comes from the translators. If you turned the translator off on those stations, they would likely disappear from the ratings.

 

[Mark Roberts]

KANW-HD2 (K298BY, part of a trimulcast -- translators in ABQ, Grants, and Española -- of a news/talk format which they refer to simply as "KANW-2")

Hope that serves as a good real-world example.

KANW-2 is actually a little more complicated. KANM (90.3) is on Mt. Taylor, is a full-power C2, and relays KANW-2. I have heard it in Albuquerque, though it requires a good location* and a sensitive receiver to do so.

(* in my case, what could be considered the north edge of Nob Hill, near Our Lady of Fatima church. When I heard KANM in that area last year, I noted that the audio quality was rather bad, coming through what sounded to be a bit-starved digital connection.)

The station in Española at 91.1 that’s going to replace the KANW-2 translator there may also end up replaying KANW-2. That translator’s coverage in Santa Fe is somewhat hit-and-miss at the current time.

K298BY is owned by Carl Brasher. KANW’s longtime general manager is Michael Brasher. Interesting similarity there. K298BY solicits donations of its own in the top-of-hour window allowed to translators for such purposes. The translator seems to cover Albuquerque well. I think it runs in mono…there’s no reason for it to be in stereo…but I don’t remember right now.

 

[K.M. Richards]

Austin TX has 3.8 shares total for all -HD2 and HD3. Disregarding the analog rebroadcasts....

Nielsen does not separate translators from the station or HD channel they rebroadcast. Translators are considered by Nielsen to be a 100% simulcast of the licensed facility and are never shown separately.

Just when I thought everyone here knew that, someone has to prove me wrong.

Now I wonder how the OP thinks they could find the "analog rebroadcasts" to "disregard" them. I have never, ever, EVER seen a translator listed separately in the Nielsens.

 

[K.M. Richards]

KANW-2 is actually a little more complicated. KANM (90.3) is on Mt. Taylor, is a full-power C2, and relays KANW-2.

But it's still listed as KANW-H2 in the Nielsens. The actual station configurations are of no consequence for that.

 

[Mark Roberts]

But it's still listed as KANW-H2 in the Nielsens. The actual station configurations are of no consequence for that.

I wasn’t addressing that point.

 

[Huff]

Now I wonder how the OP thinks they could find the "analog rebroadcasts" to "disregard" them. I have never, ever, EVER seen a translator listed separately in the Nielsens.

Nielsen's policy on what types of stations are eligible to be included in the ratings:

 

[davideduardo]

Nielsen's policy on what types of stations are eligible to be included in the ratings:

Save your screen capture. You will likely have to post it again somewhere in the next 90 days.

 

[K.M. Richards]

I wasn’t addressing that point.

Well, yeah, but in the context of a thread about HD subchannels and ratings ...

 

[PTBoardOp93]

Just when I thought everyone here knew that, someone has to prove me wrong.

Now I wonder how the OP thinks they could find the "analog rebroadcasts" to "disregard" them.

I don't appreciate your tone, K.M. I am perfectly aware of how Nielsen rates stations.

I disregard the analog rebroadcasts in a theoretical illustration, to point out that HD tuner penetration is sufficient to create a 3.8 share combined across all stations.

Otherwise known as refuting precisely the point I quoted in the post which you attacked.

 

[davideduardo]

OK, kids, let's not get out of bounds here or I will remove my radio geek hat and put the ugly moderator one on.

The point of this argument / discussion is that there is no way to know the audience of a translator as they are not measured separately by Nielsen and there is no basis on which to project translator audience as there is not a single reference point. Therefore, we can't separate the listed HD audience from the translator.

We do know that HD-2 and beyond channels without translators seldom get ratings, and even then they are not significant. So we are left with assumptions based on experience and market knowledge.