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560

Am I to understand that 610 no longer has full market coverage? They used to be one of only a few SF stations that penetrated Sacramento!
It does. It's still diplexed with KVTO at Aquatic Park in Berkeley, a longstanding arrangement. Strictly speaking regarding coverage, perhaps whoever was counting didn't take into account the coverage a lower-frequency station can have with 5,000 watts. That said, KEAR is noncommercial, thus not competing the way a commercial station would compete, and its religious format shows up with minimal audience if it shows up at all.

We're past post #560, by the way.
 
We have had many discussions here about the fact that major advertisers tend to ignore consumers over the age of 55.

Yet I see and know many people who work well into their 70's who don't "have the world on a string" but just don't want to sit around all day with the web and Netflix. Again, they are consumers with income but most advertisers ignore them.

Example: the wife of a couple we know works about 30 hours a week during peak days and hours at a retail outlet where she is an "expert" on what is sold there. Her husband spends the same amount of time at a local food bank helping out with the accounting department as he was a "big name" auditing company executive in his career. Both, whether paid or not, have to buy appropriate clothing, take lunches, put miles on their cars, and do other "working" life people do, but major advertisers do not target them.

Those eligible for Social Security that still work get a "double income" which makes them potentially good ad targets. While they may have "downsized" after kids were grown, they use most of the same product categories they have always used

I'll toss in another advertising conundrum: with over 15% of the population being foreign-born (not including undocumented people), those people likely / probably have no brand recognition for most things sold in the United States.

Back to seniors: those between 55 and 65 generally don't get Social Security (or get the reduced SS payment for getting it early) and are usually not eligible for Medicare. So most work to get insurance and to build up SSI payments. Yet those big agency ad agencies and their clients cut them off at 55... or 49 for TV and even for radio for ethnic listeners.

So there are really millions and millions of people who are neither rich not in utter poverty who are not being targeted by most ad campaigns.
Just a thought: How old are the media buyers these days? In my syndication days they were (in many markets) very young and female who bought time on stations they were likely to have the most exposure to. I saw top-40 stations get big buys for things their largely teen audiences would never need to buy while stations with bigger numbers went without.
I wasn't in the ad agency business but always found this curious.
As I said, just a thought.
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Just a thought: How old are the media buyers these days? In my syndication days they were (in many markets) very young and female who bought time on stations they were likely to have the most exposure to. I saw top-40 stations get big buys for things their largely teen audiences would never need to buy while stations with bigger numbers went without.

I don't know how long ago your observation was, but it's nothing like that now. Media buys are dictated by the clients and will often specify specific formats to be included or excluded. There will, more often than not, to go only a specific number of stations deep, based on the ratings in a desired demo. Media buyers don't get a lot of flexibility to override those directives.

In fact, I suspect your observation may have been inadvertently flawed. During much of the era in which top-40 and CHR stations were dominant, buys were probably structured to gain advertiser exposure to people who weren't a specific part of the primary audience, e.g. moms picking up their kids from school, or running errands with the kids' station still on the radio from being dropped off at school that morning.

Remember that "bigger numbers" -- especially the 12+ ones -- do not automatically translate into buys. Trying to find a logical pattern without the demo breakouts is pretty much impossible. And some formats, such as Sports, are purchased without regard to the numbers compared with non-Sports stations.
 
Wrong. It actually has over 30% cume of all adults... and that is after I made a "mental adjustment" for stations listed as "AM" but which have full FM simulcasts.

What AM has is relatively low TSL, but the cume, considering how few full signals there are, is quite high.

I was mainly arguing about the Bay Area and the only stand alone station listed with any numbers has a cume of 121,000 and 1.3 share which to me says longer TSL than most music stations on FM. I guess that wasn't clear. It was to support Michael Haggarty's assertion of Bay Area AM listening and I was comparing it to other markets that have stand alone

As far as KNBR and KCBS go, both have lower cume-to-share ratios than their music counterparts. How much of that is on AM? I think I remember you saying that there is no data split for single-line reporting. Also, wouldn't the most sales demos live on the FM side which has been asserted by

Where do you get the 30 percent AM cume? Is that in the SF Bay Area or nationwide? Do the non-subscribing ethnic AM stations have high cume and low TSL? What kind of audience does KVTO AM and FMT have? KSJO? KLOK? KSQQ?
And there are markets like LA that are over 70% "ethnic" in the sales demos.

And quite a few do very well, from several Spanish specialty formats to the Farsi station to the Vietnamese one.

And it is on a very big signal. The biggest issue with AM is that there are so few stations that cover full market areas. San Francisco, for example, has three (680, 740, 810) and Cleveland has just one.
I wasn't arguing that the ethnic stations in LA have low listening. In fact I was pointing out that on normal terrestrial radio in LA and Sacramento, you have Talk, and Sports without FM simulcasts that get numbers.

The fact of the matter is the Bay Area AM listening has diminished to the point that the most successful AM stations now have simulcasts. If 680 and 740 have large numbers in the sales demos, great!

In Los Angeles, where the FM signals are monsters compared to the mediocre ground conductivity AMs and yet KFI and KLAC are highly successful without FM simulcasts. My point earlier was in LA you can ONLY hear baseball on AM? Same goes for Basketball. Of course, there aren't any FM stations struggling enough in LA to sacrifice.
 
And it is on a very big signal. The biggest issue with AM is that there are so few stations that cover full market areas. San Francisco, for example, has three (680, 740, 810) and Cleveland has just one.
Again, I was speaking about the Bay Area. In fact, few of the San Francisco FM's cover the full market. Less than half cover San Jose with a usable signal on FCC maps and certainly don't even touch Santa Rosa. On the other hand, most the LA FM's are monster's that cover areas well outside of the market. LA Stations cover the IE better signal-wise better than the SF stations cover SJ.

The ground AM conductivity in the Bay Area and Delta is superior in places, but in LA it's mediocre.

I think you mentioned a few years ago that the SF and LA Markets were defined based on AM listening which would lend to why the IE is outside of the LA market and in the SF market, San Jose and Santa Rosa are included.

So the argument about AM listening on KCBS and KNBR probably makes sense in areas like San Jose and Santa Rosa when it comes to sales demos. But again, L-R does paint a better picture for FM coverage in SJ.
 
We haven't paid attention to 610 since it went religious.
Or 106.9 after 1978 or before 2005, lol.

The problem with 610 is that the 15 mv/m contour doesn't go far past San Mateo which according to David's resources, is where most in door listening happens on AM. Of course, with a good car radio and insulated antenna, you can get a decent signal at 2 mv/m which would go beyond Sacramento.
 
Just a thought: How old are the media buyers these days? In my syndication days they were (in many markets) very young and female who bought time on stations they were likely to have the most exposure to. I saw top-40 stations get big buys for things their largely teen audiences would never need to buy while stations with bigger numbers went without.
Media Buyers tend to be in their 20's and 30's and mostly women. The Media Planner allocates funds for each market based on the directives from the Media Director. The buyer requests rates from stations and sometimes will tell a station rep what rate is needed to get on the buy based on the station audience delivery.

A buyer knows the demographics desired, the metric used (Cost Per Point, etc) and specifics like ethnicity, gender, etc.

For example, if a buy is against 25-44 women, the buyer will be told to get equal exposure in 25-34 and 35-44
I wasn't in the ad agency business but always found this curious.
Many if not most agency buys come from agencies directly, although some use buying services to get the best rates and to do the paperwork.

And most buys are not made in the same market as the stations that are bought. Most agencies are in NY, LA, Chicago, Dallas, Atlanta. A few more are in Detroit, San Francisco, Minneapolis. But generally the buyers just look at the delivery and know nothing about the station. Sometimes the supervisors will say "don't buy the same format twice" in a market to avoid cume duplication.

Local agencies can be very different. Often they are small, with one person doing the whole media job. The relationships with local and regional stations can be a major factor. And the client may have "preferred media choices" that have to be considered.
 
Again, I was speaking about the Bay Area. In fact, few of the San Francisco FM's cover the full market. Less than half cover San Jose with a usable signal on FCC maps and certainly don't even touch Santa Rosa. On the other hand, most the LA FM's are monster's that cover areas well outside of the market. LA Stations cover the IE better signal-wise better than the SF stations cover SJ.
Depends on the station and its transmitter location. San Francisco's radio MSA is long and thin, and most FMs start out circularly. So those close to the Oakland/San Francsco "center" are going to be weaker to the south and up north, too.

LA's "biggies" are mostly on Mt Wilson, which looks over much of the Inland Empire metro just as well as LA and Orange Counties.
The ground AM conductivity in the Bay Area and Delta is superior in places, but in LA it's mediocre.
LA has three conductivity zones... the coast which is fairly decent, the basin which is good and the foothills and inland highlands which are fair to poor.
I think you mentioned a few years ago that the SF and LA Markets were defined based on AM listening which would lend to why the IE is outside of the LA market and in the SF market, San Jose and Santa Rosa are included.
The original definitions of the Arbitron markets came out in the 60's. Once a market was defined, changing it is hard as stations in the "old markets" have to agree. LA stations would not want the IE added, and no IE station would want to be absorbed into the LA market. But when Miami and Ft. Lauderdale metros combined, the majority of stations agreed as nearly all the FM covered both counties.
 
Am I to understand that 610 no longer has full market coverage? They used to be one of only a few SF stations that penetrated Sacramento!
I know K.M. and others have made the point that 610 being religious kinda takes it off the radar, and that's true.

It's been religious for 20 years now...and (oh, God---I'm probably creating a tangent here---oh, well, post #810, here we come) the number of stations that came back from religious to commercial is really small (off the top of my head, I can think of 1230 in Phoenix, 107.9 in Phoenix and 1150 in Los Angeles).
 
And to @Hole in your radio --- things have changed. Having time buyers be women in their 20s would actually be a great way to insure a lack of favoritism for a given radio station. Stations don't inspire that level of passion or fandom in that demo anymore.

Plus, anybody caught doing that would be out of a job.
 
I know K.M. and others have made the point that 610 being religious kinda takes it off the radar, and that's true.

It's been off the table for 20 years now...and (oh, God---I'm probably creating a tangent here) the number of stations that came back from religious to commercial is really small (off the top of my head, I can think of 1230 in Phoenix, 107.9 in Phoenix and 1150 in Los Angeles).
Another factor: 610 and 560 were pretty decent to the north and south back when a 3 mV/m to 5 mV/m signal was adequate to overcome background noise. Today, the ITU says 15 mV/m is needed in urban areas; I think that is a bit "European overstated" and think around 10 mV/m is the needed signal.

Whatever your criteria for usable signals may be, neither 560 nor 610 cover the entire MSA adequately. Even 740 is deficient to the north, and 810's null to the east makes some of the "hill country" pretty rough. 680, being n on-directional, tends to be only fair to the farthest north and not always great at night towards Gilroy.
 
I know K.M. and others have made the point that 610 being religious kinda takes it off the radar, and that's true.

It's been religious for 20 years now...and (oh, God---I'm probably creating a tangent here---oh, well, post #810, here we come) the number of stations that came back from religious to commercial is really small (off the top of my head, I can think of 1230 in Phoenix, 107.9 in Phoenix and 1150 in Los Angeles).
106.9 in San Francisco. :sneaky:

I know of one recent example of a religious, um, conversion, which was another swap, in Des Moines, where Iowa Catholic Radio and a Spanish-language broadcaster swapped AM and FM stations, with the commercial broadcaster ending up with 1150, the former KWKY. I could think of a couple of other examples, but I'll hold off because this has been enough of a runaway thread already.

Regarding KCBS's coverage:
Which is amazing given that the stick is in Novato, midway between San Francisco and Santa Rosa.
The directional patterns, whether day or night, favor the SSE, more so at night but daytime coverage also does not go as far north as it does south. You can't get it in Eureka but you can get it in Paso Robles.
 
Media Buyers tend to be in their 20's and 30's and mostly women. The Media Planner allocates funds for each market based on the directives from the Media Director. The buyer requests rates from stations and sometimes will tell a station rep what rate is needed to get on the buy based on the station audience delivery.

A buyer knows the demographics desired, the metric used (Cost Per Point, etc) and specifics like ethnicity, gender, etc.

For example, if a buy is against 25-44 women, the buyer will be told to get equal exposure in 25-34 and 35-44

Many if not most agency buys come from agencies directly, although some use buying services to get the best rates and to do the paperwork.

And most buys are not made in the same market as the stations that are bought. Most agencies are in NY, LA, Chicago, Dallas, Atlanta. A few more are in Detroit, San Francisco, Minneapolis. But generally the buyers just look at the delivery and know nothing about the station. Sometimes the supervisors will say "don't buy the same format twice" in a market to avoid cume duplication.

Local agencies can be very different. Often they are small, with one person doing the whole media job. The relationships with local and regional stations can be a major factor. And the client may have "preferred media choices" that have to be considered.

And between what I posted and David's expansion of what was admittedly the Reader's Digest Condensed Book version, I hope the OP can see why I questioned his observation and conclusion.

Simply put: It is not now, nor ever was, the media buyers' decisions to make. The parameters were pre-dictated higher up the food chain.
 
@adradio was probably referring to KNBR on 680, which, along with (I guess?) KTCT 1050 and KNBR-FM 104.5 is the main SF Giants Radio Network affiliate.

When it comes to sports radio in the SF Bay Area (especially where the Giants are concerned), they are very dominant in the ratings and thus are very difficult to compete against.

It helps that they also have a flamethrower of a signal on 680 (50,000 watts unlimited 24/7). 560's comparatively puny 5,000 watts couldn't compete even if it wanted to.

c

But why compare it to KNBR? I fail to see how listening to Giants' game would conflict with listening to conservative radio. And by the time most Giants' games start, the afternoon drive is well over. I'm just not understanding how KNBR is responsible for KSFO's demise.
 
Which is amazing given that the stick is in Novato, midway between San Francisco and Santa Rosa.
But it protects the Canadian border. It has "sticks" plural.
 


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