The point isn't the programming. It's the sales. The sales teams for these companies target the boroughs, not the suburbs. That's what killed NashFM.
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Emmis Hires a Manager For La Exitosa 98.7
- Thread starter Barry
- Start date
The point isn't the programming. It's the sales. The sales teams for these companies target the boroughs, not the suburbs. That's what killed NashFM.
First AAA as a startup today would only work on a non-commercial station as the demos are too old for sales in a mostly agency business market like NYC.
Second, the market is over 50% Black and Hispanic; groups that enormously under index with AAA formats. Then the other half is about 50% immigrant, ranging from Russians to Asia s and Persians. Those are not groups that are at all likely to listen to the AAA formats.
That leaves a tiny segment where the sales demo percentage of the market is too small to “work”.
That was nearly six decades ago. It’s not relevant to today’s markets. Besides the changes in population, cultures and ethnicity, back in the 60’s Arbitron was not established and the radio market was, for Pulse and Hooper, basically the area where toll free calls could be made from Manhattan.
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K.M. Richards
Program Director, The Eighties Channel™
As David pretty much said, that was then and this is now. How many formats has WNEW-FM had since its peak as a prog rocker?
It took quite a while after dropping rock to find something that worked for them though. The talk format was messy, to put it mildly, although they did find success with Opie & Anthony (but seemingly no other daypart.) Then it was Blink, Mix, and New - which finally stabilized. Not saying staying with classic rock was a certainty, but their experiments after left them wandering the wilderness for longer than one would think or hope.
You forgot Fresh. I will say they are successful good for them.
With all due deference to you and David, I understand all that. But you're missing my point. In this era of mega-consolidation, the fear of trying something new that might fail stops broadcasters from trying something that might succeed. WOR-FM, all those years ago, was one such experiment. It was unexpectedly successful for an FM in 1966 with a format that had never been tried in a major market, and FM penetration a tiny fraction of AM. Had the palace intrigue not killed off this experiment, it might have gone on to evolve into what WNEW-FM did. I Am Not Saying This Particular Scenario Would Work In 2025. But if you never try anything except what's already been done, you lock yourself into a small box which, over time, withers and dies. And I've just described today's radio industry. At least Emmis is trying something. If it succeeds, even within the limited parameters they have over there at 98.7, props to them. If not, damn it, try something else, even if it is some variation of AAA. (I'll bet someone could invent a 2025 version of AAA, with current-day artists and some hosts that connect with the target demo, that would get traction. For lack of a better handle, a 2025 version of WOR-FM.)
@Andy Travis and @XCountry285 mentioned all the iterations of NEW-FM. You're right, but at least they kept trying something until something started to get traction. They didn't just curl up into a ball and die when the rock stopped rolling, or when Opie and Anthony blew up the talk format with their inane stunt. I might not like what they tried, but at least they kept trying.
Keep in mind that consolidation itself was trying something new. It hadn't been done before because it was illegal. So they tried it, took the risks, incurred all the debt, and paid the price. It wasn't required. ABC didn't buy radio stations because Disney didn't believe in radio. By the late 90s, they were looking to sell. So they didn't buy radio. They also didn't do anything really innovative with the stations they owned. Just Radio Disney, which we know wasn't successful.
Where do you see companies trying something new? In areas where they aren't burdened by regulation. In fact, that's part of the reason why there hasn't been any regulation in the internet. They don't want to stifle innovation. Meanwhile, there are lots of regulations on broadcasters, and you see the result. Broadcasters are trying out new things online or with podcasts, where there are no regulations or limits.
The reason why there was format innovation during that brief period in the early 70s was because FM was a new frontier. It was a band that wasn't used much before, and had very little listenership. The minute people discovered it, the money interests took over, and the innovative formats were replaced with more popular formats. We're way past that point in broadcast radio. Placing limits on stations with ownership laws won't inspire creativity or innovation. Instead it's the complete opposite.
K.M. Richards
Program Director, The Eighties Channel™
If I was a betting person (which I am not), I'd take the "against" position on that, for all the reasons given both in this thread and others on the same subject.
AAA is a format which is proving to work well only on non-comms, and it's been that way for a few decades now. It certainly isn't a major market commercial success (and last time I checked, there was no market more "major" than NYC).
Which incarnation are you talking about? The one that ran a simulcast of Rambling With Gambling in morning drive? The one that had a staff of all female DJs? The one with Murray The K? This was a station that was format of the month, that changed all the time because they didn't know what they were doing. WABC-FM was the same thing. They tried giving their AM jocks "other shows." So you had Bob Lewis playing album cuts. Then they did the Love format with Brother John. They kept throwing spaghetti at the wall because they didn't know what would stick. Is this the kind of innovation you want? Really?
K.M. Richards
Program Director, The Eighties Channel™
"98.7 WOR-FM New York ... welcome to the wheel of formats!"
I love the AAA format. It's refreshing to me and can be very well done.
It's also being done in New York at 90.7 with a very respected staff and a consultant I respect whose firm helped revamp them from the era of "City Folk" into what it is today.
And that station gets poor ratings. And just had to let staff go. And neither of those things are really their fault. To a lot of us, NYC is CBGBs, Lou Reed, the Ramones, and Lennon and Springsteen dropping by WNEW. WRXP thought they had an in with that, when you had a renewal of the indie scene with The Strokes and such, it was exciting.
And then came recessions, social media, and the demographics changed and the artists get priced out and go further underground. One of my favorite movies is Whit Stilman's "Last Days of Disco." At the end, a group of friends has lived through a cultural moment centered around a New York City club. And they reflect on having lived through something that just ceased to exist as a culturally dominant force, or ideal. Sure, there's some hope it will live again in some form, but it'll never be the same.
I try to not grow stereotypically old as I age. Or be resentful. I cringe at current politics, social media's abuses, and the devaluing of hard working local radio people who I respect and consider friends. One of the things I find most distasteful is greed, and I seek contentment in my career and life. So, I look at what's being done at WFUV, and WNYU - which plays new music, cutting edge, independent, unique stuff every single afternoon. Or WFMU which, though inaccessible to a lot of people, has managed to create a very loyal and passionate group of supporters. It's not just a preset - it's a club. People fund it, interact with the DJs, rave about the station, explore the archives.
That spirit is still out there. It's just not in places where most people look, or to their tastes. But I try to support it and enjoy it where I find it, because that's where that sort of radio still lives (to borrow from a WNEW slogan.)
Look, I have five ideas on my hard drive that I think sound great as "mixes" or formats. Maybe 2 at best could be sustained on local radio, under very specific circumstances. The others, would make great streams. I'm from a radio background, so they wouldn't be haphazard either. And I think even companies like iHeart could fill some interesting niches on streaming that they're not bothering with. Taking risks? I don't see them hiring young upstarts and doing the "format labs" like they briefly did with HD. But they're not in the risk business. They're in the business of extracting the max payout for people up top, just like most other businesses of their size.
All that to say, if I had won the lottery, I'd probably buy 98.7 and make it the next Indie 103.1 or WPIX (in the new wave/punk/soul era.) And it'd be a blast. But I've stopped expecting commercial radio with that much at stake to excite me. There's few benevolent billionaires or rock stars saving good old FM, and for some of us, it's reached the point of 57 Channels and (next to) Nothin' On, and that's the reality of our times. I'll just seek out the few bright stars in a dimming dial while they're there. Cause we seem to lose one every week.
Oh, and support 90.7 WFUV if Triple A is your jam. They could probably use it right about now.
It's also being done in New York at 90.7 with a very respected staff and a consultant I respect whose firm helped revamp them from the era of "City Folk" into what it is today.
And that station gets poor ratings. And just had to let staff go. And neither of those things are really their fault. To a lot of us, NYC is CBGBs, Lou Reed, the Ramones, and Lennon and Springsteen dropping by WNEW. WRXP thought they had an in with that, when you had a renewal of the indie scene with The Strokes and such, it was exciting.
And then came recessions, social media, and the demographics changed and the artists get priced out and go further underground. One of my favorite movies is Whit Stilman's "Last Days of Disco." At the end, a group of friends has lived through a cultural moment centered around a New York City club. And they reflect on having lived through something that just ceased to exist as a culturally dominant force, or ideal. Sure, there's some hope it will live again in some form, but it'll never be the same.
I try to not grow stereotypically old as I age. Or be resentful. I cringe at current politics, social media's abuses, and the devaluing of hard working local radio people who I respect and consider friends. One of the things I find most distasteful is greed, and I seek contentment in my career and life. So, I look at what's being done at WFUV, and WNYU - which plays new music, cutting edge, independent, unique stuff every single afternoon. Or WFMU which, though inaccessible to a lot of people, has managed to create a very loyal and passionate group of supporters. It's not just a preset - it's a club. People fund it, interact with the DJs, rave about the station, explore the archives.
That spirit is still out there. It's just not in places where most people look, or to their tastes. But I try to support it and enjoy it where I find it, because that's where that sort of radio still lives (to borrow from a WNEW slogan.)
Look, I have five ideas on my hard drive that I think sound great as "mixes" or formats. Maybe 2 at best could be sustained on local radio, under very specific circumstances. The others, would make great streams. I'm from a radio background, so they wouldn't be haphazard either. And I think even companies like iHeart could fill some interesting niches on streaming that they're not bothering with. Taking risks? I don't see them hiring young upstarts and doing the "format labs" like they briefly did with HD. But they're not in the risk business. They're in the business of extracting the max payout for people up top, just like most other businesses of their size.
All that to say, if I had won the lottery, I'd probably buy 98.7 and make it the next Indie 103.1 or WPIX (in the new wave/punk/soul era.) And it'd be a blast. But I've stopped expecting commercial radio with that much at stake to excite me. There's few benevolent billionaires or rock stars saving good old FM, and for some of us, it's reached the point of 57 Channels and (next to) Nothin' On, and that's the reality of our times. I'll just seek out the few bright stars in a dimming dial while they're there. Cause we seem to lose one every week.
Oh, and support 90.7 WFUV if Triple A is your jam. They could probably use it right about now.
The format was successful because it met a need. However, the original execution was "a bunch of hippies in the back-of-the-building playing album cuts. When Abrams showed with "Superstars" that hit-based harder rock that those free-form stations were totally vulnerable, we saw nearly all of those station change over or change format.
A lot of what you are pointing to is done on college stations. For years they had their own "trade magazines" just like FMQB and Hamilton and Gavin, but they played deeper and wider. Many had and have decent signals, but they did not get big audiences unless they sounded a lot like a commercial rock statioin.
They did not do anything original. That "format" has existed on FM in Latin America since the 70's and in the US since the early 80's on WFID in San Juan. But only when the former PD of WFID put it on a Miami FM did we get it on the mainland. Again, not original in NYC.
When each person can create their own "AAA" format using online services, why would anyone in the younger demos... who is not listening a lot to radio anyway... come back to the 14 minutes of commercials, the traffic reports and chatter on an FM?
Yet, since you mention Opie & Anthony, you should recognized that most of the station listening was to them and for them, not for the music.
Yet "consolidation had existed for decades before it was allowed in the U.S. There was evidence from many countries that consolidation generated more revenue for the industry as it made buying more "consolidated" and simple.
Actually, as a marketing tool, Radio Disney was a success for a while. But with all AM stations and many terrible signals, it did not work in the U.S. But Disney knew how well it worked in Latin America, but, for reasons we don't and won't know, they never tried the same approch on full signal FMs in the U.S..
There is another reason for not trying "something new" which is the fact that research does not show new ways into listeners' radios. All kinds of music blends and formats have been tested; the fact that we don't see anything novel or unique is that those doors seem to be closed.
The "innovative" formats were generally improvised and spontaneous creations with no research. Most were blown away when better playlists with jocks who did not pick their own music were put in place.
The most successful format when FM was pushed into separate programming was Beautiful Music, which in most cases was syndicated and delivered to stations on reels of tape.
Album rock was codified and developed within a few years of those late 60's free form stations coming on the scene.
Top 40 started beating AM Top 40's in a few cases in the late 60's, but with a major influx of new stations starting in 1972.
So those "innovative formats" were actually just unorganized and unresearched manifestations of the concept, but they were not to be survivors.
If you look at the variety of formats in most markets after 1995, you find fewer format duplications on multiple stations and quite a lot more additional options that fit in each cluster's overall plan to sell its package of stations to advertisers.
It’s interesting that commercial AAA station WXPK “The Peak” 107.1, broadcasting to the suburbs just north of New York, has been on the air for over 20 years.
They must be doing something right.
The few successful commercial AAA stations were founded decades ago. The one issue they have is that their audience is aging with them. And they seem to have slowly decreasing revenue.
I also have to believe that many of our commenters (including me) are in that age range and may not understand that we are no one's target demographic any more.
Yeah, but I specifically said "...try something else, even if it is some variation of AAA. (I'll bet someone could invent a 2025 version of AAA, with current-day artists and some hosts that connect with the target demo, that would get traction. For lack of a better handle, a 2025 version of WOR-FM.)" Aim it at 25-35's, or whatever demo you think might give it a shot. The point is, learn from history, but don't repeat it verbatim. (Damn, I'm sounding like Stuart again.)I also have to believe that many of our commenters (including me) are in that age range and may not understand that we are no one's target demographic any more.
Would you take property worth $20 million and take risks with it if it was your money? Just throw spaghetti at the wall? They were willing to do that in 1970 because nobody cared about FM. It was a throwaway. But now is a different story. That's kind of what Emmis is doing now with 98.7. But they're a bit more organized than what you're proposing.
Shareholders are unlikely to agree to a buyout based on the stock’s current market value. At the time of the article, the stock was trading at $4.60 per share following the buyback announcement. If you review the historical price it shows the stock was trading around similar levels to today before that announcement. You offer premiums to entice the shareholders.Here's the article about the deal.
Stockholders OK Jeff Smulyan’s Plan To Take Emmis Private.
Shareholders of Emmis Corp. have given CEO Jeff Smulyan the greenlight to achieve his long-desired goal of taking the company private. During its annual meeting Tuesday in Indianapolis, stockholders votedwww.insideradio.com
The sale of the station was intended to fund the purchase of stockholder shares to take the company private. So that's the connection, and why he needs the $50 million sale price. Once the deal expires, he can offer current market value for the stock. Which may be more in line with the current value of 98.7.