Are their any independent local stations anymore?

[IM42A]

You mention the regional status of WXIX in Cincinnati, but there were multiple such stations -- KSTW Tacoma/Seattle was distributed everywhere in Washington state, and KTVT Fort Worth/Dallas was everywhere in Texas and even into Oklahoma, Louisiana, and Arkansas. Indies from NYC and Boston had similar regional status.

I know, but WXIX is just the independent with which I am the most familiar (along with WRET Charlotte).

 

[Y2kTheNewOldies]

In retrospect, the launch of Fox marked the beginning of the end for independent stations. But that was far from obvious at the time, since the schedules for most Fox affiliates pretty much looked the same for the first ten years as the stations had looked when they were independent. Really, the only difference was Fox prime time programming instead of a prime time movie. That changed when Fox got NFL rights and started shopping for stronger affiliates.

That said, I agree with you that the proliferation of cable networks played a part -- a huge part, in my opinion. Absent cable, the independent station model of morning and afternoon kid shows, off-network reruns, movies, and sports would likely have lasted until streaming started dominating TV viewing. But with cable, the kids went to Disney, Nick, and Cartoon Network, the off-network reruns were also on multiple cable channels (notably TBS, which had started out as an independent), movies were on even more cable channels, and the regional sports networks outbid local stations for sports rights.

But for those of us who grew up on these stations in the 70s and 80s, it really has been sad to see stations that are fond memories die. Yeah, the call letters remain but they're empty shells of what they once were. You mention the regional status of WXIX in Cincinnati, but there were multiple such stations -- KSTW Tacoma/Seattle was distributed everywhere in Washington state, and KTVT Fort Worth/Dallas was everywhere in Texas and even into Oklahoma, Louisiana, and Arkansas. Indies from NYC and Boston had similar regional status.

Yes some of the independent TV Stations had at one point had Superstation status like WPCH-TV Atlanta when the Late Ted Turner ran that station as WTCG and WTBS.

 

[Y2kTheNewOldies]

In retrospect, the launch of Fox marked the beginning of the end for independent stations. But that was far from obvious at the time, since the schedules for most Fox affiliates pretty much looked the same for the first ten years as the stations had looked when they were independent. Really, the only difference was Fox prime time programming instead of a prime time movie. That changed when Fox got NFL rights and started shopping for stronger affiliates.

That said, I agree with you that the proliferation of cable networks played a part -- a huge part, in my opinion. Absent cable, the independent station model of morning and afternoon kid shows, off-network reruns, movies, and sports would likely have lasted until streaming started dominating TV viewing. But with cable, the kids went to Disney, Nick, and Cartoon Network, the off-network reruns were also on multiple cable channels (notably TBS, which had started out as an independent), movies were on even more cable channels, and the regional sports networks outbid local stations for sports rights.

But for those of us who grew up on these stations in the 70s and 80s, it really has been sad to see stations that are fond memories die. Yeah, the call letters remain but they're empty shells of what they once were. You mention the regional status of WXIX in Cincinnati, but there were multiple such stations -- KSTW Tacoma/Seattle was distributed everywhere in Washington state, and KTVT Fort Worth/Dallas was everywhere in Texas and even into Oklahoma, Louisiana, and Arkansas. Indies from NYC and Boston had similar regional status.

True when Fox Started it was at one time only "The Late Show" with Joan Rivers and prime time programming when they premiered. Yes by all intensive purposes there were Fox Affiliates that was still classified as independent stations in some parts of the country like what you said the stations changed the prime time movie with Fox Primetime programming and the Late Show with Joan Rivers. Yes the name Big 4 Networks came out around the time Fox formed their sports division and got NFL games.

 

[yeoldeschool]

In retrospect, the launch of Fox marked the beginning of the end for independent stations. But that was far from obvious at the time, since the schedules for most Fox affiliates pretty much looked the same for the first ten years as the stations had looked when they were independent. Really, the only difference was Fox prime time programming instead of a prime time movie.

This reminded me of an early internet site, one that to my surprise is still online, frozen in time since its last update in 2002:

https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~aarong/from-andrew/fox/fox.html

The number of failed and flopped shows documented there is more than you can shake a universal remote at, and sure enough, the skimpy prime time scheduling grids Fox offered its earliest affiliates are exhibited in great detail as well -- and greatly amusing to behold:

https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~aarong/from-andrew/fox/fox-1987to1990.html

But for those of us who grew up on these stations in the 70s and 80s, it really has been sad to see stations that are fond memories die. Yeah, the call letters remain but they're empty shells of what they once were.

This history-rich Wikipedia article makes an enjoyable read for anyone who remembers the superstations fondly:

Superstation - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I still recall being disappointed by my 1980s cable system's lack of channel space, making most superstations pure unobtainium. It seemed only C-band dish owners and subscribers to extremely well-heeled urban cable systems could see more than just the usual WTBS and WGN. I still vividly remember how fascinating it was in those days watching local news and hometown teams from thousands of miles away, when every station still had a unique look and sound, topped off by the cornucopia of accents and cultures unique to their regions. Now you can instantly pull up anyone's news from anywhere on a handheld device, but since every operation has also become a budget-strapped cookie cutter clone of all the others, the magic isn't relivable. At least, unless you stumble across news from really out-of-the-way independents like CJON Newfoundland, which still feel exotic to watch.

Anyone know if there were ever any cable systems that carried more than 3 superstations simultaneously? In the analog days, there were some systems that, despite limited amplifier technology (e.g. 400 MHz), still got up into, or close to, the 100+ channel range on account of dual-coax designs . It would have been novel seeing WTBS, WGN, KWGN, WSBK, WPIX, WWOR, and KTLA all grouped together on the same channel line-up card.

 

[IM42A]

This reminded me of an early internet site, one that to my surprise is still online, frozen in time since its last update in 2002:

https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~aarong/from-andrew/fox/fox.html

The number of failed and flopped shows documented there is more than you can shake a universal remote at, and sure enough, the skimpy prime time scheduling grids Fox offered its earliest affiliates are exhibited in great detail as well -- and greatly amusing to behold:

https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~aarong/from-andrew/fox/fox-1987to1990.html


This history-rich Wikipedia article makes an enjoyable read for anyone who remembers the superstations fondly:

Superstation - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I still recall being disappointed by my 1980s cable system's lack of channel space, making most superstations pure unobtainium. It seemed only C-band dish owners and subscribers to extremely well-heeled urban cable systems could see more than just the usual WTBS and WGN. I still vividly remember how fascinating it was in those days watching local news and hometown teams from thousands of miles away, when every station still had a unique look and sound, topped off by the cornucopia of accents and cultures unique to their regions. Now you can instantly pull up anyone's news from anywhere on a handheld device, but since every operation has also become a budget-strapped cookie cutter clone of all the others, the magic isn't relivable. At least, unless you stumble across news from really out-of-the-way independents like CJON Newfoundland, which still feel exotic to watch.

Anyone know if there were ever any cable systems that carried more than 3 superstations simultaneously? In the analog days, there were allegedly some systems that got up into the 100+ channel range. It would have been novel seeing WTBS, WGN, KWGN, WSBK, WPIX, WWOR, and KTLA all grouped together on the same channel line-up card.

That sounds more like a Canadian cable system. They are very generous in their channel offerings, and often carry channels from throughout the whole of Canada. Add to that, in the early days, many US systems were limited to twelve channels, and to add a satellite channel, a terrestrial channel had to go.

Thankfully, you can now get a diversity of newscasts from throughout the US on services such as NewsOn and Zeam. However, most of the time, it is pretty homogenized product in terms of graphics and presentation. The Tegna stations are so similar, even down to the same beatbox-like bumper music, that you are hard-pressed to tell the difference between them. WUSA news from Washington looks and feels just like WLTX and WCNC. The Gray and Sinclair stations are similar as well. The days of quirky local personalities such as Marty Bass and Mark Mathis (who takes quirky to a whole new level) are largely a thing of the past.

 

[Y2kTheNewOldies]

This reminded me of an early internet site, one that to my surprise is still online, frozen in time since its last update in 2002:

https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~aarong/from-andrew/fox/fox.html

The number of failed and flopped shows documented there is more than you can shake a universal remote at, and sure enough, the skimpy prime time scheduling grids Fox offered its earliest affiliates are exhibited in great detail as well -- and greatly amusing to behold:

https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~aarong/from-andrew/fox/fox-1987to1990.html


This history-rich Wikipedia article makes an enjoyable read for anyone who remembers the superstations fondly:

Superstation - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I still recall being disappointed by my 1980s cable system's lack of channel space, making most superstations pure unobtainium. It seemed only C-band dish owners and subscribers to extremely well-heeled urban cable systems could see more than just the usual WTBS and WGN. I still vividly remember how fascinating it was in those days watching local news and hometown teams from thousands of miles away, when every station still had a unique look and sound, topped off by the cornucopia of accents and cultures unique to their regions. Now you can instantly pull up anyone's news from anywhere on a handheld device, but every station is now a budget-strapped cookie cutter clone of the rest. No magic left at all, unless you stumble across news from really out-of-the-way independents like CJON Newfoundland, which still feel exotic to watch.

Anyone know if there were ever any cable systems that carried more than 3 superstations simultaneously? In the analog days, there were allegedly some systems that got up into the 100+ channel range. It would have been novel seeing WTBS, WGN, KWGN, WSBK, WPIX, WWOR, and KTLA all grouped together on the same channel line-up card.

Wow! That Fox fan page from the late 1990's-Early 2000's was from the era of Geocities, Tripod and Angelfire. Miss those days of the internet but back to this one and also all the shows on that list no longer have ties to Fox given that the owners of the former Fox Primetime shows are either owned by third parties or with Disney back when Fox inc sold 20th Century Fox/now 20th Century Studios in 2019.

True SuperStations used to be big deal until WTBS became WPCH-TV and WGN America became Newsnation and yes the birth of Youtube and multiple TV apps made it a fading memory. The closest thing to what superstations used to be for me is watching TV Newscasts or other TV shows from other countries via Youtube thats as close as we can get to how we enjoyed superstations in the past.

 

[IM42A]

Wow! That Fox fan page from the late 1990's-Early 2000's was from the era of Geocities, Tripod and Angelfire.

Now there's a blast from the past! Those pages were hideous.

 

[yeoldeschool]

That sounds more like a Canadian cable system. They are very generous in their channel offerings, and often carry channels from throughout the whole of Canada.

Were they like this in the 1980s as well? I know they carried American superstations. In the early 1990s, Mark Kriski on KTLA's Morning News often used to say hello to his mother watching "on cable back at home in Canada."

Add to that, in the early days, many US systems were limited to twelve channels, and to add a satellite channel, a terrestrial channel had to go.

Yeah. I edited my post with more details before realizing you had already replied, but in case you don't scroll up again to see it, there were dual-coax cable systems in the early analog days which allowed higher channel counts than was typical. If you had a dual coax 400 MHz system, for example, you could get to about 106 channels ... or to about 72 channels on a 300 MHz dual coax amplifier network.

Thankfully, you can now get a diversity of newscasts from throughout the US on services such as NewsOn and Zeam. However, most of the time, it is pretty homogenized product in terms of graphics and presentation. The Tegna stations are so similar, even down to the same beatbox-like bumper music, that you are hard-pressed to tell the difference between them. WUSA news from Washington looks and feels just like WLTX and WCNC. The Gray and Sinclair stations are similar as well. The days of quirky local personalities such as Marty Bass and Mark Mathis (who takes quirky to a whole new level) are largely a thing of the past.

All that is basically exactly what I was getting at myself.

 

[IM42A]

Were they like this in the 1980s as well? I know they carried American superstations. Mark Kriski on KTLA's Morning News often used to say hello to his mother watching "on cable back at home in Canada."

I do not know. But today, a quick look at TVTV.ca listings for any random Canadian cable system shows a panoply of CBC, CTV, and Global affiliates from one end of Canada to the other.

Yeah. I edited my post with more details before realizing you had already replied, but in case you don't scroll up again to see it, yes, there were in fact dual-coax cable systems in the early analog days which allowed higher channel counts than was typical. If you had a dual coax 400 MHz system, for example, you could get to about 106 channels ... or to about 72 channels on a 300 MHz dual coax amplifier network.

I know we had a system with dual coax and a box with buttons that allowed you to flip from one lineup of twelve channels to another, for a total of 24 channels. That was a kind of stop-gap solution.

 

[vchimpanzee]

I still recall being disappointed by my 1980s cable system's lack of channel space, making most superstations pure unobtainium. It seemed only C-band dish owners and subscribers to extremely well-heeled urban cable systems could see more than just the usual WTBS and WGN. I still vividly remember how fascinating it was in those days watching local news and hometown teams from thousands of miles away, when every station still had a unique look and sound,

Back when WGN America was still called that, I could see their newscast. Really professional.

 

[Y2kTheNewOldies]

KFTY Videos

lizmar.com

KKOG-TV: An experiment in local, live television

www.kmrichards.com

There used to be local independent TV stations that mainly focused on a subset of a DMA region such as WLIG-TV Riverhead/ Now secondary CBS O&O WLNY New York mainly focused on Long Island (Eastern part of the New York TV Market) in 1985. KFTY Santa Rosa, California mainly focused on Mendocino, Napa and Sonoma areas (Northern Parts of the San Francisco DMA) at one point in its history. KDOC-TV Anaheim/Los Angeles at one point only focused on the Orange County part of the LA TV market. KKOG and KADY mainly focused on Ventura county part of the LA TV market at one point. But in all of these cases they either went off the air as in the case of KKOG, changed their COL's to the core city, changed affiliations or became part of a duopoly with the main affiliate.

KFTY-TV Santa Rosa became KEMO-TV San Francisco and mainly affiliate with subchannel diginets.

KDOC Los Angeles became a TCT affiliate.

WLIG is WLNY-TV New York and may carry CBS content whenever WCBS-TV has to air breaking news or CBS Sports programming.

 

[IM42A]

There used to be local independent TV stations that mainly focused on a subset of a DMA region such as WLIG-TV Riverhead/ Now secondary CBS O&O WLNY New York mainly focused on Long Island (Eastern part of the New York TV Market) in 1985.

The original plan was for channel 55 to be an NBC affiliate. This would have worked out nicely, with CBS and ABC coming from Connecticut, which at some points on Long Island would have been easier to receive OTA than NYC stations. Chet Huntley was one of the investors in the proposed station.

 

[Tim from Springfield IL]

The original plan was for channel 55 to be an NBC affiliate. This would have worked out nicely, with CBS and ABC coming from Connecticut, which at some points on Long Island would have been easier to receive OTA than NYC stations. Chet Huntley was one of the investors in the proposed station.

I'm surprised that there weren't also translators of the NYC stations in eastern Long Island during the pre-cable era.

 

[fybush]

In the early 1980s, People's Cable in suburban Rochester NY not only had WTBS, WOR and WPIX but for a few years also carried WNEW, WSBK, plus CJOH (CTV) and CBLFT (Radio-Canada) from across the lake. No WGN - that came later.

And over at my grandmother's apartment complex there was an in-house MATV system that had KTVT, KSTW and WSBK.

 

[IM42A]

I'm surprised that there weren't also translators of the NYC stations in eastern Long Island during the pre-cable era.

You would think so. However, Long Island is so flat, that very likely a watchable, if possibly snowy, picture was available from the NYC stations, as well as spillover from WTIC/WFSB and WTNH (especially the latter).