101 CBS FM

[oldies76]

How are they bonus points when the listeners they represent would only hurt KRTH's billing power? The advertisers that go through agencies want as few 55+ listeners as possible. What part of "boat anchor" don't you understand? I love oldies just as much as the next old guy, but what David said -- and has been saying for years on this board -- makes perfect sense to me.

Well maybe advertisers and the whole process should change their ways and methodologies and find ways to accept them more. I am 50, so in 5 years, I will be "shunned" for most classic hits formats? Sounds absurd if you ask me or most people.

Bonus points, yes siree! Otherwise, they are just being left on the table.

 

[davideduardo]

I certainly remember this time. But better yet was an earlier time under Mr. Hamilton and Phil Hall, where the playlist seemed endless (over 1200 songs at least), huge specials and personal DJ's and even a Saturday night request show. Listeners had fun and the station was a huge draw. But that was 30-40 years ago! Where has the time gone ATSF?

For most of the 80's, the station was stuck in the mid to low 3-share range. A couple of times it broke to a 4.0, but then there was the 1990 year when it averaged about a 2.3 for the four books. The best period, prior to recent years, was 1986 when it had a 4.0 in two books; however in the Spring 1986 book they were 9th and did not even make the top 10 in 25-54 or 35-64!

You can track KRTH yourself from 1976 to 2002 at http://www.americanradiohistory.com/Duncan-Market-by-Market-History.htm where you can pull up the Los Angeles ratings history for a quarter of a century!

 

[davideduardo]

I call them bonus points.

Have you ever sold to national agency accounts?

I have, including being a national sales manager, and being too top-heavy is the equivalent of a yellow card in soccer. Even if you deliver part of 25-54 well, there is a tendency to be classified as "too old leaning" if those 55+ numbers are too big on a music station.

 

[oldies76]

For most of the 80's, the station was stuck in the mid to low 3-share range. A couple of times it broke to a 4.0, but then there was the 1990 year when it averaged about a 2.3 for the four books. The best period, prior to recent years, was 1986 when it had a 4.0 in two books; however in the Spring 1986 book they were 9th and did not even make the top 10 in 25-54 or 35-64!

You can track KRTH yourself from 1976 to 2002 at http://www.americanradiohistory.com/Duncan-Market-by-Market-History.htm where you can pull up the Los Angeles ratings history for a quarter of a century!

I remember a sizable change to their music and presentations in 1990 and the elimination and reductions of certain programming. I wonder if that had something to do with that 2.3 that year, Thanks for that link, much appreciated.

 

[davideduardo]

Wouldn't you agree most listeners to oldie formats would rather hear a broad variety of music, instead of hearing sugar pie honey bunch every day wouldn't do the freddie be more refreshing. I still think PD's have it wrong, listeners want more variety not the same stale repetition. I know a broad format 55 to 85 year span would have huge numbers but everyone thinks listeners my age don't spend like the young people, I don't BUY (PUN) it, I spend as much, maybe even more then the youngsters, and so do many of my friends.

You make several points here.

First, if you play songs from 1955 to 1985, you are essentially trying to cover 3 "musical generations". You have the 50's and early 60's fans, who were either the first boomers or the last of the "Great Generation". They are all over 70 now. Then you have the British Invasion up to the disco era group, most of whom are in their late 50's and 60's. Then there is the late 70's to 1990 group, which is in its late 30's to mid-50's for the most part.

None of these groups has compatible likes and dislikes. Play that wide range of songs, and nobody will be happy.

As to "variety"... the term does not mean "more songs" to the average listener. It means "only songs I like". I've given the example of a major market classic rock station I programmed some years back. It had a list of roughly 500 songs, and those were the only ones that everybody liked or, at least, accepted, among over 2500 titles we tested. The station debuted with a 22 share at #1 in a market with over 100 radio stations in the metro (metro population: 18,000,000). About a year later, a competitor came on, playing 1800 of those same songs we tested; that meant they had 1300 songs that did not pass our test. They never got over a 1.8 share, and flipped within 18 months. Listener research showed that they were perceived to have much less variety than our 500 song list... because variety is about every song being a favorite, and not about playing lots of bad songs.

As to advertising, the clients who buy through agencies have considerable research on their consumers. They know that a consumer is harder and harder to sell the older they are. This is due to long-standing brand preferences, less of a tendency to experiment with the unknown and greater skepticism towards advertising. The cost of making a sale is often too high to be cost effective. So those clients tell their agency to buy in younger demos where advertising gets better results.

 

[davideduardo]

I remember a sizable change to their music and presentations in 1990 and the elimination and reductions of certain programming. I wonder if that had something to do with that 2.3 that year, Thanks for that link, much appreciated.

While the 12+ declined, they actually did better in 25-54. They were getting really old demographically.

By 1993, with the changes, they were up to 4th in 25-54 and 7th in 12+. The freshening worked, but they did not institute a policy of updating the music often enough and were, mostly, driven by the power of Robert W and Steele.

 

[davideduardo]

I also remember WMOD in DC around 72 to 75 they had a super large playlist that included many "oh wow" cuts that were never played since their original air date ex. reperata and the delrons-whenever a teenager cries. It seems the oldie signals of the 70's had very large playlists. I know KFXM boasts 10,000 titles, I was listening to them for two straight weeks and never heard a repeat song, I know big signals would frown on not playing the same cuts over and over but some listeners may find this very refreshing. WFAT and WKCE also have deep lists, they must use the same service, they sound the same with liners and the music is the same tunes at the same time.

Barry Richard's WMOD was arguably the first all-oldies FM, debuting in 1968 with a "if it was a hit, ever, we play it." It never got significant ratings, and got blown away around '77 in favor of country (which was not an easy to sell format in a major northern market).

When I was working with EZ Communications in DC around 1970, I used to listen fairly often to WMOD, in part because it had nearly no commercials!

 

[davideduardo]

So the actual "playlist" is in the 600s, with about 250 of them played less than once a week? Interesting. Are the "every so often" songs scattered equally around the days and dayparts as playlist "spice" or do they get played only on weekends, overnight, and other low-listening periods?

Some seem to be random across all dayparts, but most play only in overnights or in 7 PM to Midnight. It appears that they add a couple of songs an hour to fill in light commercial hours so that the main library does not have its rotations messed up.

If you do a 6 AM to 7 PM Monday to Friday, there are 340 songs that played in the last 6 weeks. Adding Saturday and Sunday, also 6 AM to 7 PM, gets you up another 120 songs. So most of those "extras" are playing at night and in overnights.

 

[oldies76]

First, if you play songs from 1955 to 1985, you are essentially trying to cover 3 "musical generations". You have the 50's and early 60's fans, who were either the first boomers or the last of the "Great Generation". They are all over 70 now. Then you have the British Invasion up to the disco era group, most of whom are in their late 50's and 60's. Then there is the late 70's to 1990 group, which is in its late 30's to mid-50's for the most part.

None of these groups has compatible likes and dislikes. Play that wide range of songs, and nobody will be happy.

In this case, is where you have to be smart on how to program 30 years of oldies music. The main presentation can be late 60's thru mid 80's music (like many classic hits stations did successfully not too long ago, KRTH, WOGL, WCBS and others). Then you can have a weekend night, like a sock-hop for the 1955-63 period. And the rest (64-66) can be slotted in once an hour. All bases are covered.

It's the same today with classic hits playing three decades. 70's, 80's and some 90's. Disco Sat. nights for your groovin' 70's. The rest of the 70's and 80's would be your main and something like 90's at nine for your newest songs. Again, all bases filled.

 

[ATSFGuy]

For stations like KRTH, the Program Director could write out a new playlist at least 2-3 weeks out. Songs are placed in different parts of the day from the time we get up in the morning to when we go to bed at night. A few of those that are rotated lightly/seldom played might show up in the evening or overnight slots depending on the way the daily logbook is set up.

 

[TheBigA]

It's the same today with classic hits playing three decades. 70's, 80's and some 90's. Disco Sat. nights for your groovin' 70's. The rest of the 70's and 80's would be your main and something like 90's at nine for your newest songs. Again, all bases filled.

You're not thinking like someone who actually listens to the station. Read the data on how long and when people listen. That will determine how you program. They're not listening 24/7 any more, and you're not programming to people in their 60s.

 

[oldies76]

You're not thinking like someone who actually listens to the station. Read the data on how long and when people listen. That will determine how you program. They're not listening 24/7 any more, and you're not programming to people in their 60s.

Right....my station would be geared to people who enjoy music and would love to relive the great times, with great classics. They don't need to listen 24/7. An hour or two every now and then would suffice to my target, people who lived the day. My target audience is not yours. My target would enjoy and rarely, if ever complain. It's a concept that needs to return to the airwaves and if I had the money, I'd do it in a heartbeat, even as a small 50 watter.

 

[DOB]

""The extreme danger of intercept research (where people are "intercepted" on the street) is that the appearance of the interviewer, the situation and the phrasing of the question introduce unconquerable bias and, generally, make such a survey totally inaccurate.""

Totally agree with you here and would like to add that it is happening to your music tests as well, just that you are not intentionally destroying the validity of the test.
Anyone who has dj'ed a large event live where you get real time results from your eyes witnessing the on going reaction, know of a huge factor radio music testing is ignorant of, MOMENTUM. I can't make you love a song you hate but I can make a song you think is "ehh ok" become one you thoroughly enjoy based on the songs that I have played before it. I can create a mood by playing a set of upbeat songs you love and sing along with which will allow me to place a lesser song into that strong set and thus make it out perform. I can make a power song become an "ehh ok" song too if I play it among the lesser songs and or create a drag through tempo or crappy song selection.

I'm not discounting music tests, I think they are very important. However, it is a just a tool, not the be all end all, and it most certainly can give you flawed results if you don't set it up perfectly. And this is me being a total hypocrite I guess but it is true, there is a sort of sample correction bias that will make the music test more perfect. Bias injected to reduce bias. At the end of the day, just like with pollsters in politics, this science will never be exact.

 

[TheBigA]

Right....my station would be geared to people who enjoy music and would love to relive the great times, with great classics.

Great...lots of those "stations" online. Be sure to contribute to them because it costs a lot to do that.

 

[Tibbs4]

Right....my station would be geared to people who enjoy music and would love to relive the great times, with great classics. They don't need to listen 24/7. An hour or two every now and then would suffice to my target, people who lived the day. My target audience is not yours. My target would enjoy and rarely, if ever complain. It's a concept that needs to return to the airwaves and if I had the money, I'd do it in a heartbeat, even as a small 50 watter.

Gotta couple of million dollars in your pocket, Oldies? I might know of a station right up your music alley.

In all seriousness, this is a great thread. David - keep this kind of info coming and BigA alluded to research on today's listener. Any research that you can share is always appreciated.

Today, I encountered a female server is a restaurant who was in her mid-20's. She loves listening to Nashville's Hippie Radio, and she spotted my shirt, and proceeded to tell me she loves the Eagles. She doesn't listen to much of today's music and she mostly creates her own music online and mentioned Pandora, so her time spent listening to Nashville radio is Hippie (70%), and equal remaining parts WNRQ (Classic Rock) and WCJK (Jack-FM). The majority of robust comments about the station, that I get from the general public are from that exact age group or those over 60. The 40-55 demo actually seems pretty silent.

I know CBS-FM was the station of major discussion on this thread and I find that station's billing and rating success, strategy and viability in the diverse NYC market to be really interesting. I also think that they have nailed the music and have managed to keep the "older demo" engaged, but not at the stations expense with agency buyers, while drawing a nice younger demo that spends some impressive TSL. David, how would you be formatting a station(in today's environment) to reach the 25-54 demographic with this "format" compared to that 22 share?

Also, I find it interesting that CBS-FM takes some serious shots on this board, but has managed to do a nice job of keeping the old days of engaging air personalities alive, despite the changing beliefs of how these jocks should sound. Shannon, Broadway Bill Lee, Joe Causi, etc. All quite different presentations.

 

[davideduardo]

For stations like KRTH, the Program Director could write out a new playlist at least 2-3 weeks out. Songs are placed in different parts of the day from the time we get up in the morning to when we go to bed at night. A few of those that are rotated lightly/seldom played might show up in the evening or overnight slots depending on the way the daily logbook is set up.

Stations that program their music locally use music scheduling software. The major players in this area are MusicMaster and Selector. Both have websites.

Briefly, the software stores a database of songs, and each song has codes that indicate things like category, year, mood, tempo, vocal style, gender, genre, research scores and artist codes.

Another part of the database stores "clocks" which are the grid for individual hours, with place for songs, liner, promos, commercials, etc. The clocks have "blanks" with specifications for the insertion of songs.

There are also rule sets, with things like "no two slows in a row" or "no two very old songs back to back" or "average sweep tempo 5" or "minimum rest" that guide the program in scheduling.

To do a daily music log, the software looks at the clocks, the rules and the songs and fills in the appropriate song in each position. Then the PD will look at the log and do some fine tuning to add the human touch.

 

[TheBigA]

She doesn't listen to much of today's music and she mostly creates her own music online and mentioned Pandora, so her time spent listening to Nashville radio is Hippie (70%), and equal remaining parts WNRQ (Classic Rock) and WCJK (Jack-FM).

My question to you Tibbs is what does she get from Hippie or OTA radio in general that she doesn't get from Pandora or other streaming sources? Is it convenience?

 

[oldies76]

Gotta couple of million dollars in your pocket, Oldies? I might know of a station right up your music alley.

I haven't checked my powerball tickets from Saturday.......yet. I think 300 million is more than enough.

 

[davideduardo]

Anyone who has dj'ed a large event live where you get real time results from your eyes witnessing the on going reaction, know of a huge factor radio music testing is ignorant of, MOMENTUM. I can't make you love a song you hate but I can make a song you think is "ehh ok" become one you thoroughly enjoy based on the songs that I have played before it. I can create a mood by playing a set of upbeat songs you love and sing along with which will allow me to place a lesser song into that strong set and thus make it out perform. I can make a power song become an "ehh ok" song too if I play it among the lesser songs and or create a drag through tempo or crappy song selection.

I've done or managed well over 1000 music tests over the last 30 years. One of the things that I was able to do was study "position bias" based on song scores being influenced by the prior song or songs.

This is easy to test in one of several ways. First is to put a few duplicate songs on the same test in different positions.. Another way is to use the computer to scramble song positions between various sessions of a test (I never did tests with one single session).

In all cases, the songs generally scored very little variance (on the order of 1% to 2% at the most) with different sorts or in duplicate positions on the test. I always used the dial method of registering response, so the scale was 1 to 100, allowing for very precise scoring. And, quite amazingly, respondents gave near identical scores to each play of a repeated song or to the same song in different positions for different groups.

While a DJ may create a mood, a music test is a formal group occasion with a moderator who gives exact instructions or it is an individualized online experience where the person is instructed what the purpose of the project is.

In fact, average scores are more likely influenced by either very good or very bad weather outside than by position in the test. Fortunately, "room temperature" affects all songs alike, so it is still conclusive based on song rank and subset differences.

I'm not discounting music tests, I think they are very important. However, it is a just a tool, not the be all end all, and it most certainly can give you flawed results if you don't set it up perfectly. And this is me being a total hypocrite I guess but it is true, there is a sort of sample correction bias that will make the music test more perfect. Bias injected to reduce bias. At the end of the day, just like with pollsters in politics, this science will never be exact.

Agreed that tests are a tool. And like carpenter's tools or a mechanic's tool set, they are only as good as the person who uses them. Skillful interpretation of the test is something that not all programmers do well, but most of the research companies give lots of guidance about how to implement a test. Still, if all the test is used for is to eliminate bad songs, it is worth the expense!

Fortunately, a music test does not have to be exact. You want to find out which songs to play a lot, which to play a little less and so on down to the ones that are dangerous and the ones that are poisonous.

The hardest decisions are about looking at songs on the borderline between two different rotations... knowing what to look at as far as demographics (younger respondents vs. older ones), respondent station usage, etc... are all tie breakers.

 

[davideduardo]

In this case, is where you have to be smart on how to program 30 years of oldies music.

"Smart" and "30 years of oldies" are direct contradictions.

For a station based on ephemeral pop music, you can't do it.

The Jack type stations do cover multiple decades, but they are highly selective in what they play from each era or trend set. And they program for mood, not just individual songs.

The main presentation can be late 60's thru mid 80's music (like many classic hits stations did successfully not too long ago, KRTH, WOGL, WCBS and others). Then you can have a weekend night, like a sock-hop for the 1955-63 period. And the rest (64-66) can be slotted in once an hour. All bases are covered.

You are going to alienate all the listeners in the ages advertisers want, and they won't come back after being disgusted a couple of times.

It's the same today with classic hits playing three decades. 70's, 80's and some 90's.

Classic Hits plays basically late 70's to late 80's, with just a few "before their time" or "after their time" songs from a few years earlier or later that sound like a perfect fit and which research very well. The window for 90% to 95% of the songs is 1977 to 1989, or about 12 years.

Disco Sat. nights for your groovin' 70's.

I can't wait to hear Village People, Patrick Hernandez and Lipps, Inc. again.

The rest of the 70's and 80's would be your main and something like 90's at nine for your newest songs. Again, all bases filled.

Nothing better to drive away huge segments of your core listeners than a specialty show that plays 12 or 13 songs in a row that they hate.