2007 Format changes?

[CHRles]

So you mean to tell me in a metro close to about 20 million people, there isn't a format hole for country music? I find that hard to believe, I don't care if it is New York. With that many types of people, the audience would be there somewhere. I just think corporate entities just don't know how to promote country music in an Urban Market like NYC.

Yes! It won't work.
50 percent of that 20 million are non whites. Hispanics, blacks, Asians, and those of mixed races make up a substantial portion of the NYC metro area.
Of the remaining 50 percent, many of the whites belong to the upper class and upper middle class. Furthermore, Most of the NYC area are LIBERALS, or at least moderate Democrats. Most Country listeners are conservative.
There are 2 million Jews living in metro NYC.
There's at least a million Arabs and Muslims.
Metro NYC has a HUGE and I mean HUUUUUGE Italian-American and Greek-American population.
There's a growing Indian (as in the Country of India) living in metro NYC, especially in Jersey.
Metro NYC has a HUGE growing Russian born population, especially in Brooklyn. Think they listen to Country much?

Even if you find 100,000 people besides you and Sean Hannity who like Country music, the format still won't work. 100 K listeners is chump change in market #1.

Atlanta on the other hand is a market that (sadly) voted overwhelmingly to George W. Bush in the last elections. They also have a Christian/AC station that at times cracks the Top 10, while a GOSPEL station is consistently in their Top 5. Ever seen those formats work that well in NYC??
As others have mentioned, Atlanta (which I think is a pretty nice city) is in Georgia and is therefore much more Country friendly. While it may have a substantial gay community (Elton John anyone?), a growing Hispanic population, a huge black population, an ivy league university (Emory), and one of the highest median incomes in the south, you can't compare it to NYC. Even though metro Atlanta stood at around 4 million in 2000 and is now almost up to 5 million (!!!) you still can't compare it to NYC.
New York City is much more of a real city than anywhere else in the country, with the exception perhaps of San Francisco or Miami Beach. Manhattan is a relatively small island with a HUGE population that is 4 times bigger than that of the city of Atlanta (only about 400 K people live in Atlanta proper, which is much bigger in size than Manhattan). There is a true city lifestyle and atmosphere in New York, on par with cities in Europe.

Oldies can definitely attract a huge audience, but as others have pointed out that audience is sadly seen as too old for advertisers who are hoping to draw a large impressionale (ie 18-34 or 25-54) audience.

 

[AlvaJr]

Country Music Format will now be seen on 102.7, but we don't need oldies in NYC because I listen to every Saturday Nights is called Saturday Night Oldies with Mark Simone on 77WABC.

 

[briancraig]

All of you who are negative about country seem to forget that WYNY at the time they switched to WKTU had more listners (based on Arbitron) than WFNY, WNEW, WCAA or WCBS have right now.

I won't get in to advertiser bias, but the argument that no one will listen to country in NYC is not valid.

Even though I don't think it is relevant in 2006, I do want to correct those that say WHN was not successful. They were top 5 at least once and almost always in the top 10.

 

[JustinCase]

All of you who are negative about country seem to forget that WYNY at the time they switched to WKTU had more listners (based on Arbitron) than WFNY, WNEW, WCAA or WCBS have right now.

I won't get in to advertiser bias, but the argument that no one will listen to country in NYC is not valid.

Even though I don't think it is relevant in 2006, I do want to correct those that say WHN was not successful. They were top 5 at least once and almost always in the top 10.

New York is a much different city now than it was then. There have been sweeping demographic changes and let's not forget popular culture is in a completely different place now in NYC and it hasn't gotten closer to country.

 

[NJMike]

There have been sweeping demographic changes and let's not forget popular culture is in a completely different place now in NYC and it hasn't gotten closer to country.

Yes and no. While the demo in NYC proper has changed since 10 years ago (when the last country station, WYNY, existed), the demographic has not changed all that much in the suburbs. People tend to forget that NYC stations do serve the suburbs. In fact, here in Morris Co. (NJ) all we have to listen to are NYC stations - and we have the demos to support a full-time country station. The same can apply to Rockland/Westchester and Long Island.

In addition, country is more mainstream and popular than it was 10 years ago. Just look at artists like Faith Hill, Shainia Twain, Keith Urban, and Rascal Flatts, just to mention a few. Country cross-over hits are played constantly on WPLJ and Lite FM. Country wouldn't work? I'd look closer at the possibilities.

 

[Jeffrey]

Country Music Format will now be seen on 102.7, but we don't need oldies in NYC because I listen to every Saturday Nights is called Saturday Night Oldies with Mark Simone on 77WABC.

First of all it's, "country music will be heard (not seen) on 1027", incorrect information by the way.

Secondly thanks for your second comment.

Very interesting post.

 

[Jeffrey]

There have been sweeping demographic changes and let's not forget popular culture is in a completely different place now in NYC and it hasn't gotten closer to country.

Yes and no. While the demo in NYC proper has changed since 10 years ago (when the last country station, WYNY, existed), the demographic has not changed all that much in the suburbs. People tend to forget that NYC stations do serve the suburbs. In fact, here in Morris Co. (NJ) all we have to listen to are NYC stations - and we have the demos to support a full-time country station. The same can apply to Rockland/Westchester and Long Island.

In addition, country is more mainstream and popular than it was 10 years ago. Just look at artists like Faith Hill, Shainia Twain, Keith Urban, and Rascal Flatts, just to mention a few. Country cross-over hits are played constantly on WPLJ and Lite FM. Country wouldn't work? I'd look closer at the possibilities.

I completely agree that the demographics of potential country listeners are there in the suburbs, ie. Jersey and Long Island but the last country station way out on Eastern Long Island WBAZ, 102.5 fm failed miserably. NJ, on the other hand could probably support a successful, money making country station but my question is then why doesn't NJ format one? There are local NJ stations NJ101 for example in addition to numerous am frequencies....yet nothing.
As far as the city is concerned, as stated prior, I don't see country coming anytime soon to a city that has more in common with Europe than the rest of the country...and let's not forget that market number 2 just recently lost their fm country station making the LA area pretty much "countryless".
San Francisco has also been without a country station for several years now. If it doesn't even bill well in California's top cities you can forget New York!

 

[Hamp]

So you mean to tell me in a metro close to about 20 million people, there isn't a format hole for country music? I find that hard to believe, I don't care if it is New York. With that many types of people, the audience would be there somewhere. I just think corporate entities just don't know how to promote country music in an Urban Market like NYC.

Yes! It won't work.
50 percent of that 20 million are non whites. Hispanics, blacks, Asians, and those of mixed races make up a substantial portion of the NYC metro area.
Of the remaining 50 percent, many of the whites belong to the upper class and upper middle class. Furthermore, Most of the NYC area are LIBERALS, or at least moderate Democrats. Most Country listeners are conservative.
There are 2 million Jews living in metro NYC.
There's at least a million Arabs and Muslims.
Metro NYC has a HUGE and I mean HUUUUUGE Italian-American and Greek-American population.
There's a growing Indian (as in the Country of India) living in metro NYC, especially in Jersey.
Metro NYC has a HUGE growing Russian born population, especially in Brooklyn. Think they listen to Country much?

Even if you find 100,000 people besides you and Sean Hannity who like Country music, the format still won't work. 100 K listeners is chump change in market #1.

Atlanta on the other hand is a market that (sadly) voted overwhelmingly to George W. Bush in the last elections. They also have a Christian/AC station that at times cracks the Top 10, while a GOSPEL station is consistently in their Top 5. Ever seen those formats work that well in NYC??
As others have mentioned, Atlanta (which I think is a pretty nice city) is in Georgia and is therefore much more Country friendly. While it may have a substantial gay community (Elton John anyone?), a growing Hispanic population, a huge black population, an ivy league university (Emory), and one of the highest median incomes in the south, you can't compare it to NYC. Even though metro Atlanta stood at around 4 million in 2000 and is now almost up to 5 million (!!!) you still can't compare it to NYC.
New York City is much more of a real city than anywhere else in the country, with the exception perhaps of San Francisco or Miami Beach. Manhattan is a relatively small island with a HUGE population that is 4 times bigger than that of the city of Atlanta (only about 400 K people live in Atlanta proper, which is much bigger in size than Manhattan). There is a true city lifestyle and atmosphere in New York, on par with cities in Europe.

Oldies can definitely attract a huge audience, but as others have pointed out that audience is sadly seen as too old for advertisers who are hoping to draw a large impressionale (ie 18-34 or 25-54) audience.

Sorry, I just don't buy that argument. You are somewhat stereotyping listeners by their ethnic backgrounds. How do you know that some of these people are not country fans? Does every Country fan
live in a trailer park, pick a banjo or go to the tractor pull? No, not necessarily.
Even Chicago has a country station and there is a great amount of diversity there as well. Almost as much as New York. I mean please, spare me the "New York snobbery" that country music just isn't New York attitude. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE NYC, but sometimes they need to get over themselves when it comes to certain things.

 

[kws31a]

I don't believe that a mainstream country station will not bill well on a NYC signal. Definetly will not be a #1, but Top-10...I believe the right programmer could pull it off. With great on air talents and a "Big City" sound it would work. (such as WUSN in Chicago) Again, it will certainly take a "large market" programmer and promotions department. Also, as previous posts have indicated, NYC broadcasters must target the surrounding suburbs as much as the city. The former Y107 had great on air talent and projected a local flavor to the areas that it served. (unfortunately with poor signals in many areas including in NYC proper) Y107 did it's job well from on air to promotions and was the unfortunate victim of greed on the part of it's owners, who found out the hard way that the country format was the best bet. The format did not "fail". A suburban signal may be the "best" bet, but certain areas such as Bergen County are swamped by NYC signals.

 

[Jeffrey]

So you mean to tell me in a metro close to about 20 million people, there isn't a format hole for country music? I find that hard to believe, I don't care if it is New York. With that many types of people, the audience would be there somewhere. I just think corporate entities just don't know how to promote country music in an Urban Market like NYC.

Yes! It won't work.
50 percent of that 20 million are non whites. Hispanics, blacks, Asians, and those of mixed races make up a substantial portion of the NYC metro area.
Of the remaining 50 percent, many of the whites belong to the upper class and upper middle class. Furthermore, Most of the NYC area are LIBERALS, or at least moderate Democrats. Most Country listeners are conservative.
There are 2 million Jews living in metro NYC.
There's at least a million Arabs and Muslims.
Metro NYC has a HUGE and I mean HUUUUUGE Italian-American and Greek-American population.
There's a growing Indian (as in the Country of India) living in metro NYC, especially in Jersey.
Metro NYC has a HUGE growing Russian born population, especially in Brooklyn. Think they listen to Country much?

Even if you find 100,000 people besides you and Sean Hannity who like Country music, the format still won't work. 100 K listeners is chump change in market #1.

Atlanta on the other hand is a market that (sadly) voted overwhelmingly to George W. Bush in the last elections. They also have a Christian/AC station that at times cracks the Top 10, while a GOSPEL station is consistently in their Top 5. Ever seen those formats work that well in NYC??
As others have mentioned, Atlanta (which I think is a pretty nice city) is in Georgia and is therefore much more Country friendly. While it may have a substantial gay community (Elton John anyone?), a growing Hispanic population, a huge black population, an ivy league university (Emory), and one of the highest median incomes in the south, you can't compare it to NYC. Even though metro Atlanta stood at around 4 million in 2000 and is now almost up to 5 million (!!!) you still can't compare it to NYC.
New York City is much more of a real city than anywhere else in the country, with the exception perhaps of San Francisco or Miami Beach. Manhattan is a relatively small island with a HUGE population that is 4 times bigger than that of the city of Atlanta (only about 400 K people live in Atlanta proper, which is much bigger in size than Manhattan). There is a true city lifestyle and atmosphere in New York, on par with cities in Europe.

Oldies can definitely attract a huge audience, but as others have pointed out that audience is sadly seen as too old for advertisers who are hoping to draw a large impressionale (ie 18-34 or 25-54) audience.

Sorry, I just don't buy that argument. You are somewhat stereotyping listeners by their ethnic backgrounds. How do you know that some of these people are not country fans? Does every Country fan
live in a trailer park, pick a banjo or go to the tractor pull? No, not necessarily.
Even Chicago has a country station and there is a great amount of diversity there as well. Almost as much as New York. I mean please, spare me the "New York snobbery" that country music just isn't New York attitude. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE NYC, but sometimes they need to get over themselves when it comes to certain things.

so in other words you think immigrants from Puerto Rico, Malaysia, Pakistan and the like listen to country music?

Chicago-NY, hmmmm no comparison in demographics at all. Go to http://www.census.gov/main/www/cen2000.html
if you would like to see the stastical differences.
Not to mention Chicago is midwest and New York is northeast. Does that not speak for itself?

Mentallity is something not measured by demographics but the point you make about the "new York snobbery" is EXACTLY the reason advertisers here are biast against the format and that it doesn't make money here so ineffect you've stated the reason at hand.

 

[Jeffrey]

I don't believe that a mainstream country station will not bill well on a NYC signal. Definetly will not be a #1, but Top-10...I believe the right programmer could pull it off. With great on air talents and a "Big City" sound it would work. (such as WUSN in Chicago) Again, it will certainly take a "large market" programmer and promotions department. Also, as previous posts have indicated, NYC broadcasters must target the surrounding suburbs as much as the city. The former Y107 had great on air talent and projected a local flavor to the areas that it served. (unfortunately with poor signals in many areas including in NYC proper) Y107 did it's job well from on air to promotions and was the unfortunate victim of greed on the part of it's owners, who found out the hard way that the country format was the best bet. The format did not "fail". A suburban signal may be the "best" bet, but certain areas such as Bergen County are swamped by NYC signals.

so if the Y107 made so much money has no one jumped on the band wagon in over 10 years?
I'll repeat it....LA just lost it's country station and SF. hasn't had one for several years. If it doesn't work in "western" Californian cities...land of gold rush and cowboys you can forget NYC!

 

[jiminCT]

I think the country format can work in the NY METRO AREA. There are two country stations doing well in Connecticut. While WWYZ is about 75 miles from NYC...the demographics are not that different in our state than in NY. I think the core 5 borough NYC area may not have a place for country music..but Long Island, Jersey, Rockland County, Connecticut? Absolutely...like classic rock, there is a market.

 

[CHRles]

Forget it Jeffrey, it seems to me some of these people are just in denial.
It's not stereotyping to say that most blacks, Puerto Ricans, Chinese, Indians, and Arabs don't listen to Country music. The only part of the country where a lot of Hispanics listen to Country is in southern Texas. Those Hispanics are Mexicans who oftentimes comes from rural parts of Mexico where they enjoy listening to the Country equivalent of Ranchera.

Back to this board. I guess people just don't understand that parts of northern Jersey or Long island, are in many ways more big city like than downtown Oklahoma City. Yes, even the suburbs are very multi-racial/multi-ethnic/multi-cultural, and have way more in common with a big city attitude than a typical suburb of even Washington D.C.
It's funny that people try to compare nearby Hartford to NYC. Have you people ever been to the suburbs of Hartford? They're not nearly as condensed as Long Island or the suburbs near Newark and Jersey City.
Do you really want to compare Hackensack with Farmington??
Everyone's pretty much abandoned the actual city of Hartford, which barely has over a 100 K (similar story over in New Haven and Bridgeport). NYC on the other hand is more populated than ever before.
Country is also number one in Providence, but then again those ratings cover not only the entire small state of Rhode Island, but also parts of CT and Mass.
Country is also tied for second place in nearby Poughkeepsie, but the metro population there is SMALLER THAN NEWARK!!!

So, comparing the success of Country in nearby markets means absolutely nothing.

 

[jiminCT]

It's quite evident you didnt read my post properly. The concept of country music works in CT...which would probably work in NJ or Long Island. Population density is entirely irrelevent...you have suburban folks (yes..they are similar to the Hartford burbs in ehtnic makeup) who may want country. There are stations not far up the road in the Hudson Valley. As an ex-NYC native living in the Hartford area, i think your opinions are quite typical of the NYC mindset.

 

[CHRles]

It didn't work before with Y107, which had signals in both Jersey and Long Island.
Population density is relevant and I guess YOU didn't read MY reply properly. The Hudson Valley's population is small, very small by comparison to even some of the suburbs and counties in NYC. Country may have some, and I emphasize some, Country fans in the exurbs that are further out of NYC, but the FM stations have to first and foremost cater to the most densely populated counties and cities in the metro area.
You also really need to stop trying to compare Hartford to NYC. Even if the suburbs in CT are ethnically diverse they're just not as diverse as those of NYC. There's also no big city mentality in Hartford b/c there isn't a true big central city. Merely 120 K people live in Hartford, while over 8 million people live in NYC. People in Jersey and Long Island feel like they're part of the NYC area, and are heavily influenced by what goes on in the Big Apple. Can you say the same about folks in CT with Hartford?
Don't get me wrong, Connecticut has some of the loveliest and wealthiest counties in the world, and is a great state to live in. However, comparing it to New York is less relevant than comparing Hartford to New England.

Atlanta is another truly bad comparison, and again you've got to take into account the central city. While Atlanta has some of the tallest skyscrapers in the South, the population of Atlanta proper is about the same as States Island, the LEAST populated borough in NYC. The entire county in which Atlanta is situated has less than a million people. There are well over 1 million people not just in Manhattan, but also Brooklyn, Queens, The Bronx, as well as Nassau and Suffolk counties. While the Atlanta metro area has grown by leaps and bounds over the past 6 years from 4 to around 5 million people, this metropolitan area in GEORGIA (the deep South) includes something like 18 counties (or more). It's very spread out, and it's easy to see why Country music would do well in many of the outlying areas. In fact, most of metro Atlanta already had 3 Country stations to pick up on the FM dial even before The Bull debuted - almost every part of metro Atlanta was able to pick up an out-of-metro smalltown Country station.

 

[MoldaMania182]

I think the country format can work in the NY METRO AREA. There are two country stations doing well in Connecticut. While WWYZ is about 75 miles from NYC...the demographics are not that different in our state than in NY. I think the core 5 borough NYC area may not have a place for country music..but Long Island, Jersey, Rockland County, Connecticut? Absolutely...like classic rock, there is a market.

WRWD does very well NORTH of the city in the Hudson Valley, where the demos are obviously more country friendly.

 

[Jeffrey]

As an ex-NYC native living in the Hartford area, i think your opinions are quite typical of the NYC mindset.

Your last statement is 100% correct and that is exactly why the advertisers in New York are biast towards the country format and why there is no country music station in New York! Basically the reason country in market no. 1 doesn't work.....the "typical New York mindset" biast towards country.

 

[p_herring]

It didn't work before with Y107, which had signals in both Jersey and Long Island.
Population density is relevant and I guess YOU didn't read MY reply properly. The Hudson Valley's population is small, very small by comparison to even some of the suburbs and counties in NYC. Country may have some, and I emphasize some, Country fans in the exurbs that are further out of NYC, but the FM stations have to first and foremost cater to the most densely populated counties and cities in the metro area.
You also really need to stop trying to compare Hartford to NYC. Even if the suburbs in CT are ethnically diverse they're just not as diverse as those of NYC. There's also no big city mentality in Hartford b/c there isn't a true big central city. Merely 120 K people live in Hartford, while over 8 million people live in NYC. People in Jersey and Long Island feel like they're part of the NYC area, and are heavily influenced by what goes on in the Big Apple. Can you say the same about folks in CT with Hartford?
Don't get me wrong, Connecticut has some of the loveliest and wealthiest counties in the world, and is a great state to live in. However, comparing it to New York is less relevant than comparing Hartford to New England.

Atlanta is another truly bad comparison, and again you've got to take into account the central city. While Atlanta has some of the tallest skyscrapers in the South, the population of Atlanta proper is about the same as States Island, the LEAST populated borough in NYC. The entire county in which Atlanta is situated has less than a million people. There are well over 1 million people not just in Manhattan, but also Brooklyn, Queens, The Bronx, as well as Nassau and Suffolk counties. While the Atlanta metro area has grown by leaps and bounds over the past 6 years from 4 to around 5 million people, this metropolitan area in GEORGIA (the deep South) includes something like 18 counties (or more). It's very spread out, and it's easy to see why Country music would do well in many of the outlying areas. In fact, most of metro Atlanta already had 3 Country stations to pick up on the FM dial even before The Bull debuted - almost every part of metro Atlanta was able to pick up an out-of-metro smalltown Country station.

Just a small complaint. People always leave out Fairfield County in CT when talking about the tri-state area. We're just as influenced by what goes on in the big apple as well. However, I agree, I don't see a large country fanbase in Fairfield county either, further implenting this idea that country will just not work.

Now, can we talk about something more worthwhile. Like how there's no alternative/current rock outlet in NYC? THAT's a much bigger question.

 

[surfdude]

Jeffrey...check San Diego's Country ratings and re-think your
Country doesn't work in Western CA cities statement.

 

[Jeffrey]

Jeffrey...check San Diego's Country ratings and re-think your
Country doesn't work in Western CA cities statement.

I was in no way was implying that country doesn't work in CA, infact it's huge but the demographics of LA and SF are quite different to San Diego hence the reason for the lack of country stations in those markets.