50,000 Watt AM Stations - Why do they exist?

[KFodor]

And though I would not suggest getting rid of all lower powered radio stations, if you recall the FCC (or perhaps it was the FRC) did eliminate some stations back in the 20's or early 30's in an attempt to reduce interference.

I just wonder (though I realize it wouldn't be P.C.), if it isn't time to re-examine and consider if it makes sense to have some AM stations on the air at night with power levels like 13 watts...or daytime power levels of 250 watts or so that operates at a loss (or with one foot in bankruptcy court) to continue to stay in business under some pretense that it promotes "diversity in ownership".

Don't misunderstand me. I'm all for minority ownership of radio stations...and there should be more of it.
But, these potential owners should be able to own stations someone might actually listen to. The present situation shows less than 25% of the total radio audience even knows AM is on the air, much less listens to it. Much of the reason is the fact that the FCC through its' rulings has diluted the band to the point that, with the crappy AM receivers being made today, AM is virtually unlistenable, especially at night.

Add to it: the simple fact that there are AM operators out there who are running as renegades at night,
staying at high power when they should power down, staying non-directional at night because they can't
(or won't) fix their arrays thus adding to the interference problem. (You know who you are.) Unfortunately, the FCC has chosen to turn a blind eye to these operators and does absolutely nothing about it. Apparently an "inspector" is an endangered species at the FCC.

Now, the FCC wants to do the same thing to FM with all of these 10 watt "translators" (which I can tell you from experience will only get you about 3 miles or so of "solid" coverage). (Hey, New York...are you ready for about 200 10 watt FM stations making additional clutter to your already busy FM band?)

The question really isn't why 50KW's exist...(though I understand the questioner was asking a legitimate one.), the real question is: do we need so many radio stations no one can exist? Just a few thoughts here. And, I'll be honest: I don't pretend to know the answer, either.

 

[SteveScott]

I have picked up WCBS 880 in northern Iowa at night...after the signal gets away from WLS 890 in Chicago.

I'm told 880 comes in like a local at night in central and southern Illinois.

 

[davideduardo]

I just wonder (though I realize it wouldn't be P.C.), if it isn't time to re-examine and consider if it makes sense to have some AM stations on the air at night with power levels like 13 watts...or daytime power levels of 250 watts or so need so many radio stations no one can exist? Just a few thoughts here. And, I'll be honest: I don't pretend to know the answer, either.

250 watts on a low frequency in the plains can cover many counties. The fallacy is to equate coverage with power, rather than looking at ground conductivity and dial position. The problem stations are the ones that do not put a solid signal over their markets. In LA, 5kw on 570 ranks as one of the top couple of signals, maybe the #3 best. 50 kw on 1540 or 1580 rank as dreadful, useless signals.

need so many radio stations no one can exist? Just a few thoughts here. And, I'll be honest: I don't pretend to know the answer, either.

The present situation shows less than 25% of the total radio audience even knows AM is on the air, much less listens to it.need so many radio stations no one can exist? Just a few thoughts here. And, I'll be honest: I don't pretend to know the answer, either.

That is just not true. 40% of Americans use AM radio, and at any time, about 20% are listening. There are lots of other problems with AM, but let's not overexaggerate to this extent.

need so many radio stations no one can exist? Just a few thoughts here. And, I'll be honest: I don't pretend to know the answer, either.

Much of the reason is the fact that the FCC through its' rulings has diluted the band to the point that, with the crappy AM receivers being made today, AM is virtually unlistenable, especially at night. need so many radio stations no one can exist?

Very little listening is done at night, anyway... so the real point comes back to whether a station can cover its market area, not how many there are.

 

[radioman148]

WCBS 880 comes into the Chicago area just fine almost everynight. I live about 30 miles north of the WLS stick
& WCBS-AM has always had the best signal of any of the NYC stations here. WABC used to be very good in the 60s & 70s, but not nearly as good now. WNBC could be heard back in the day, but WFAN is very weak here & that's before IBOC.

 

[HHH]

These AM "flea power" night licenses are, in some cases, a God-send to not only the station but to the community.

There are many AM stations that are in deep rural areas, or in resort/vacation locations where the community is in a little tight-knit area within sight of the tower. Even 40-50 watts is all you need to hit the majority of the population. Early morning school closings, high-school football games, etc, were all impossible on a daytimer. I know that this change has made a big difference to these kind of isolated or unique communities.

As far as 50KW big stations are concerned, every year it seems the long-distance reception gets worse and worse due to increased interference, more electrical stuff like computers, lights, etc, that are making the band almost unlistenable. When my wife turns on the overhead light in her office, there is a loud buzz over the entire AM band on every radio in the house. Even if I shut down every light, computer and TV in the house, I still get loud buzzes on parts of the AM band from the neighbors.

I suppose it is important for these 50KWs to exist to blast there way through the band crap in their home markets, but as far as long-distance DX goes, it has been a slow fadeout now for many years. And IBOC will pretty much finish it off.

 

[Tom Wells]

Why would you tolerate a light that makes noise?
I have repaired both next-door neighbors' electrical noise problems for free.
One was a bad SCR dimmer, and the other was a damaged TV power supply.

 

[KFodor]

These AM "flea power" night licenses are, in some cases, a God-send to not only the station but to the community.

There are many AM stations that are in deep rural areas, or in resort/vacation locations where the community is in a little tight-knit area within sight of the tower. Even 40-50 watts is all you need to hit the majority of the population. Early morning school closings, high-school football games, etc, were all impossible on a daytimer. I know that this change has made a big difference to these kind of isolated or unique communities.

As far as 50KW big stations are concerned, every year it seems the long-distance reception gets worse and worse due to increased interference, more electrical stuff like computers, lights, etc, that are making the band almost unlistenable. When my wife turns on the overhead light in her office, there is a loud buzz over the entire AM band on every radio in the house. Even if I shut down every light, computer and TV in the house, I still get loud buzzes on parts of the AM band from the neighbors.

I suppose it is important for these 50KWs to exist to blast there way through the band crap in their home markets, but as far as long-distance DX goes, it has been a slow fadeout now for many years. And IBOC will pretty much finish it off.

If there are 40 watt stations that do an adaquate job in serving their community, that's one thing and I commend them.
Unfortunately, I think too many "flea powered" stations are on the air running computer driven programming seguing between satellites with little, if anything local on them. Those are the stations to which I refer...and the ones I question whether there's any reason in having them on the air at all.

 

[KFodor]

I just wonder (though I realize it wouldn't be P.C.), if it isn't time to re-examine and consider if it makes sense to have some AM stations on the air at night with power levels like 13 watts...or daytime power levels of 250 watts or so need so many radio stations no one can exist? Just a few thoughts here. And, I'll be honest: I don't pretend to know the answer, either.

250 watts on a low frequency in the plains can cover many counties. The fallacy is to equate coverage with power, rather than looking at ground conductivity and dial position. The problem stations are the ones that do not put a solid signal over their markets. In LA, 5kw on 570 ranks as one of the top couple of signals, maybe the #3 best. 50 kw on 1540 or 1580 rank as dreadful, useless signals.

need so many radio stations no one can exist? Just a few thoughts here. And, I'll be honest: I don't pretend to know the answer, either.

The present situation shows less than 25% of the total radio audience even knows AM is on the air, much less listens to it.need so many radio stations no one can exist? Just a few thoughts here. And, I'll be honest: I don't pretend to know the answer, either.

That is just not true. 40% of Americans use AM radio, and at any time, about 20% are listening. There are lots of other problems with AM, but let's not overexaggerate to this extent.

need so many radio stations no one can exist? Just a few thoughts here. And, I'll be honest: I don't pretend to know the answer, either.

Much of the reason is the fact that the FCC through its' rulings has diluted the band to the point that, with the crappy AM receivers being made today, AM is virtually unlistenable, especially at night. need so many radio stations no one can exist?

Very little listening is done at night, anyway... so the real point comes back to whether a station can cover its market area, not how many there are.

David:

You are absolutely correct when you talk about the differences between being low on the band and high on the band. However, most of the pea shooters are above 1200 or so on the band. I'll agree, though 250 watts at night can be a decent signal at 640 or so. And, I agree with your statement about the "problem stations."

Ok. 40% of Americans know AM exists. Only 20% actually listen. That means 60-80% couldn't care less about it. It's a fact of life. So, what do we do to improve this? Or, do we just let it die? I don't know the answer here, and don't pretend to. But, I just believe dealing with all the interference could be a big step toward improving things. It's great in L.A. where you have so many 50K signals. Come to Dayton, Ohio and listen to the garbage on the band at night. Now, add HD/IBOC, and the band, at night, is almost unlistenable.

And there might be listening at night if what you didn't get...was so darn much static and interference.

I also contend, there's too many stations that don't cover their market area properly...and that's another of the problems.

By the way, though, I'm hopeful the HD problems can be corrected. I believe in the concept and what could be with HD, but I don't think time is exactly on our side. If the powers that be in this business think radio's got 25 years to let HD pan out, ("just like FM") they're sorely misguided. But, that's another topic.

Again, I don't suggest I have the answers...but AM has a bunch of problems. And I don't think the FCC cares. Neither do many owners who are not keeping up the copper in the ground, nor doing the maintenance that's needed.

 

[davideduardo]

Ok. 40% of Americans know AM exists. Only 20% actually listen. That means 60-80% couldn't care less about it. It's a fact of life.

No, proabably 90% know it exists. 40% cume it weekly at least, and at any given time, 20% are listening to AM. That 40% are regularl listeners. Of course, FM cumes over 90%....

So, what do we do to improve this? Or, do we just let it die? I don't know the answer here, and don't pretend to. But, I just believe dealing with all the interference could be a big step toward improving things. It's great in L.A. where you have so many 50K signals.

Only two of those 50 kw cover the market day and night. 1530 and 1580 are useless. 1150 and 1020 are marginal, but miss lots of the market at night, and some daytime. 830 misses half the market daytime and even more at night. 710 misses the whole OC and some of the SGV at night. 1110 is similarly defective at night.

AM will die due to coverage (only 250 viable AMs in the top 100 markets) and quality. Under age 45 or so, nobody can stand it for long.

Again, I don't suggest I have the answers...but AM has a bunch of problems. And I don't think the FCC cares. Neither do many owners who are not keeping up the copper in the ground, nor doing the maintenance that's needed.

So few AMs are truly profitable, and nobody wants to put money into those... it's just a money pit.

 

[BIG APE]

;D That's the reason WAPE...The Mighty 690" was so successful in the 60's and 70's..Their 50KW signal stretched all the way up the Atlantic Coast from Jax to Myrtle Beach and from Jax Southward to Cocoa Beach. The Salt water was great! WQAM on 560 had their tower stuck out on Biscayne Bay and while they were only 5,000 watts, they could also also be heard up the Florida Coast.

Wasn't WPTF in Raleigh at one time licensed at 250,000 watts? What was the deal with that?

BIG APE!

 

[qtpieislit]

Only two of those 50 kw cover the market day and night. 1530 and 1580 are useless. 1150 and 1020 are marginal, but miss lots of the market at night, and some daytime. 830 misses half the market daytime and even more at night. 710 misses the whole OC and some of the SGV at night. 1110 is similarly defective at night.

Isn’t 1530 in Sacramento? You mean 1540. And if you can’t pick up 1540 in LA city limits, then let me suggest a new receiving device altogether. Of course, you may need a language translator to listen, but that’s another story. The same goes for 1150. Not the translator part, the radio. And KTNQ has got to be one of the best nighttime DA signals. Always was since 1020 first got nighttime authorization. Ten-Q for listening. And you say you have a problem with 1110? What are you using for a reception device, a 15 transistor radio? I mean really.

 

[Tom Wells]

Only two of those 50 kw cover the market day and night. 1530 and 1580 are useless. 1150 and 1020 are marginal, but miss lots of the market at night, and some daytime. 830 misses half the market daytime and even more at night. 710 misses the whole OC and some of the SGV at night. 1110 is similarly defective at night.

Isn’t 1530 in Sacramento? You mean 1540. And if you can’t pick up 1540 in LA city limits, then let me suggest a new receiving device altogether. Of course, you may need a language translator to listen, but that’s another story. The same goes for 1150. Not the translator part, the radio. And KTNQ has got to be one of the best nighttime DA signals. Always was since 1020 first got nighttime authorization. Ten-Q for listening. And you say you have a problem with 1110? What are you using for a reception device, a 15 transistor radio? I mean really.

Good heavens. A 6-transistor car radio from 1966 can be as hot as the boosters on the space shuttle when properly aligned.
15 discrete transistors should be able to really honk!

On the other hand, I have been really amazed at how insenstive all these modern radios are on AM. They have no real tuned RF amp.

 

[davideduardo]

Isn’t 1530 in Sacramento? You mean 1540. And if you can’t pick up 1540 in LA city limits, then let me suggest a new receiving device altogether.

Yes, that was a typo.

However, there is no radio market of the city of Los Angeles. There is a radio market called Los Angeles which is the totality of LA and Orange counties. 1540 covers about 50% of the market with a 10 mV/m signal daytime, and about 30% at night.

Of course, you may need a language translator to listen, but that’s another story.

So? It does cover most of the Korean population well, so it is suited for that purpose, but not for general market radio; it already failed in Spanish, as the coverage is too small to compete.

The same goes for 1150. Not the translator part, the radio.

It gets killed to the north and the south because of its daytime directionality and at night, it is worse. It only puts a truly usable day signal over about 75% of the population.

And KTNQ has got to be one of the best nighttime DA signals. Always was since 1020 first got nighttime authorization. Ten-Q for listening.

KTNQ has a nearly 9 mV/m interference free contour at night, due to mutually accepted interference with Roswell, which is how they got the grant in the 70's. Today, the night signal is not usable in all of Orange County, the far Pomona side of LA County, and the San Fernando Vallet and the "LA North" region as defined by Arbitron, meaning the Antilope Valley and the Santa Clarita area. Daytime it is a bit better, but its so highly directional. When I was PD, we had to avoid doing promotions in lots of areas where there was no signal and no listening.

And you say you have a problem with 1110? What are you using for a reception device, a 15 transistor radio? I mean really.

The night signal, at 20 kw, is very directional and defective in the OC and many other areas. The day signal does not get beyond the city of Orange, and is bad in the West Valley, too... and covers none of the LA North ratings zone.

I have so many radios I could not start listing, ranging from BA receptors (6 of em) to a Drake R8. But the average listener can not use many if not most of the 50 kw stations throughout the market, as all but two have very defective coverage.

Have you ever even been to LA? Your statements about KTNQ show you do not know the real coverage patterns in the market.... "best nighttime signal" is a poor statement to make; we used to dread the early sunsets and late sunrises of fall and winter, as we lost half our drive time listeners when we went to the night pattern.

 

[qtpieislit]

My signal reference was just your basic living quarters in Pacific Palisades, and tooling around Westwood. I never got the chance to take meter reading triangulates in Ventura, or Santa Ana. I don’t think the FCC thought Orange County when allocating these frequency’s. I believe the city of license say’s Los Angeles. But who knows, I could be wrong. When they said the Mighty 10Q, KTNQ/Los Angeles, maybe they just meant Pico. Ya think?

 

[davideduardo]

My signal reference was just your basic living quarters in Pacific Palisades, and tooling around Westwood.

KTNQ puts about 200 kw ERP over the Santa Monica area. That is because it puts about 1 kw towards Pittsburg and Roswell, and has to protect the Mexican border, too. At night, it has accepted interference from Roswell up to the 9 mV/m contour, so it has very, very limited night coverage.

There are no basic quarters in the Palisades, where a one-bedroom condo today goes from $1.5 million and up. Are you trying to impress us?

I never got the chance to take meter reading triangulates in Ventura, or Santa Ana.

Ventura is not in the LA market. KTNQ has no signal there, anyway. And "triangulates" are used for direction findings, not field strength readings. No station does "triangulates" and the FCC does not use them either except to find unknown pirate stations and sources of illegal interference.

I don’t think the FCC thought Orange County when allocating these frequency’s.

The FCC does not allocate AM frequencies... it only has allocations for FM and TV.

I believe the city of license say’s Los Angeles.

And the station serves the community, which is the LA metro. The FCC, when it required community ascertainment, expected applicants and licensees to survey the entire community, meaning the primary coverage area, not just the city of license.

But who knows, I could be wrong. When they said the Mighty 10Q, KTNQ/Los Angeles, maybe they just meant Pico. Ya think?

Actually, the transmitter is in Industry, and has been since it went fulltime from WGBS to KTNQ.

P.S. The station failed, quickly, as top 40; the coverage was so defective it did not reach the non-Hispanic audience well, so it went Spanish where it was very successful for more than two decades. Now, like most AMs, it has minimal ratings.

 

[qtpieislit]

It was a tenement with a shared bathroom, and no street parking, so I only paid a cool mil. I was able to back up my trailer hitch though, complete with my triangulate finder.
KTNQ was almost too awesome to describe. When KTNQ was sold, I guess it was relatively successful enough to put on 97.1/KHTZ, which was co-owned at the time. Incidentally, at the time KFI, KHJ, KRLA, KMPC, were all rockin’. KPOL, & KMPC were MOR, KGFJ & KDAY, were RNB, and KLAC was country (1150/KIIS was also music or something) That’s at least 10, that were in full music radio gear, with real legendary jocks.

 

[davideduardo]

KTNQ was almost too awesome to describe. When KTNQ was sold, I guess it was relatively successful enough to put on 97.1/KHTZ, which was co-owned at the time.

It was hardly successful. The GM at the time, Jeff Williams, says that the Top 40 format was bleading money, and ratings were dismal. Any move of format was to honor AFTRA contracts until the FM was sold, too.

Incidentally, at the time KFI, KHJ, KRLA, KMPC, were all rockin’. KPOL, & KMPC were MOR,

How was KMPC both CHR and MOR?

KGFJ & KDAY, were RNB, and KLAC was country (1150/KIIS was also music or something) That’s at least 10, that were in full music radio gear, with real legendary jocks.

KRKD (1150) was religious. 1430 and 1300 were highly rated Spanish... 1430 was pop and 1300 was regional Mexican 1330 was Classical.

And KTNQ still had a limited signal.

 

[qtpieislit]

And KTNQ still had a limited signal.

It sounded pretty good to me from my tenement, overlooking the pacific ocean.

 

[HHH]

Tom Wells:

Kudos to you for tracking down your neighborhood interference and fixing your neighbors' transformers and TV sets, but most people don't have your tech knowledge and/or live (as I do) in a highly congested area of houses, streetlights, stores, and electric signs.

Plus, in this day and age, if a stranger knocks on the average person's door and says "I would like to go through your house and find the source of interference on my AM radio", they would probably call the police!

 

[Bob E. Nelson]

KTNQ puts about 200 kw ERP over the Santa Monica area. That is because it puts about 1 kw towards Pittsburg and Roswell, and has to protect the Mexican border, too. At night, it has accepted interference from Roswell up to the 9 mV/m contour, so it has very, very limited night coverage.

You probably know this, DE, from your Cleveland days -- Pittsburgh (Pennsylvania) has an 'h' at the end unlike cities of similar names in California, Kansas and Texas.