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560

Yeah. I can also see a couple of stations in the Bay Area such as KVTO, KEST or KSFB just simply apply to change frequencies to 560. I’m thinking 5kw d, 1kw n, ND.
What about KDFC? Even at 5/1 kw Non-D 560 would do a lot to solve their patchwork coverage problems in commuting cars and since Classical California is non-profit a donation may generate tax advantages to Cumulus. Maybe even go AM HD. Or is mobile streaming seamless enough to make this superfluous?
 
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What about KDFC? Even at 5/1 kw Non-D 560 would do a lot to solve their patchwork coverage problems in commuting cars and since Classical California is non-profit a donation may generate tax advantages to Cumulus. Maybe even go AM HD. Or is mobile streaming seamless enough to make this superfluous?
It’s 2025. Not 1940. Nobody will listen to classical music on AM (or any music for that matter).
 
Trouble is, the new stuff's been tried. Sports Betting should have been profitable for KGO. The fact that Cumulus chose to dump it and move KSFO over to 810 suggests that it wasn't. Most ethnic formats would prefer to be on FM.

I'm stunned that sports bettors weren't tuning into Grampa's former favorite station on the AM dial in droves to get gambling advice instead of using online venues / info sources. Stunned!

Whoever was paying to lease airtime on AM 810 (was it MGM?) clearly figured out they were wasting money.

I think Michael is spot-on regarding 560's fate.
 
I'm stunned that sports bettors weren't tuning into Grampa's former favorite station on the AM dial in droves to get gambling advice instead of using online venues / info sources. Stunned!

As we've discussed here before, sports betting can make money with very few listeners if those listeners are responsive to the built-in advertising (apps, promotions, etc). It's sold on a per-inquiry basis, much like infomercials on TV.

Whoever was paying to lease airtime on AM 810 (was it MGM?) clearly figured out they were wasting money.

More likely, they tried to renew the contract at a lower rate. This, too, is common with per inquiry, where the buyer is continuously grinding down. That's where you suddenly see a TV station add a very early additional hour of its morning newscast on the weekend...they're already paying most of that cost anyway.

The syndicator probably went below Cumulus' break-even number.
 
Trouble is, the new stuff's been tried. Sports Betting should have been profitable for KGO. The fact that Cumulus chose to dump it and move KSFO over to 810 suggests that it wasn't. Most ethnic formats would prefer to be on FM.

"Something new" on AM is kinda like putting a really interesting podcast on CB. Nobody's there to hear it.

I have heard 'the new stuff's been tried' statement several times. The problem is, since the 1986-7 inception of Sports Radio, something that I would classify as something new - bringing new listeners significantly to radio - I am hard pressed to come up with additional examples. Roger Ailes and Rush bringing daytime national talk as a viable programming idea in 1988-9 might be another. But after that... I've heard business radio, podcast radio, standup comedy radio tried but with only varying, usually minimal, effort or results. As I suggested in a post above, anything tried on 560 would not have been the end in itself, but a decently powered laboratory to figure out what would work for radio's future. What could get younger demos listening? If we stick to the argument that nothing will, that they're lost to the internet, commercial radio has an advertiser's expiration date probably close to that of the viability of newsradio. GenZ and below don't get their news via KCBS, apparently, and I am pretty sure they won't get their FM music that way either. A free medium with easy access in millions of cars, millions of phones and millions of clock radios with nothing appealing to listen to will be a weird development. About a week ago, I tuned around my shortwave just to see what was there, and there wasn't anything. This is the future of radio?!?

I think it was "Love Lines" that turned Sunday Night FM listening to a new level when it was on. Are we sure that something like that (with a little bit of promotion) would not have got people figuring out how to tune 560 in? A modern day Dr Ruth would have had no attractive demos following it? Sports Betting had to have been one of the narrowest of narrowcasting there was, especially in a place where betting was illegal. Interpersonal relationships, and the questions surrounding it has to have a much wider audience. And I'll still say that why, whatever that unmentionable station in Orlando is doing, isn't being tried in every market where there's a vacant or poorly performing broadcast channel, amazes me.
 
I think it was "Love Lines" that turned Sunday Night FM listening to a new level when it was on. Are we sure that something like that (with a little bit of promotion) would not have got people figuring out how to tune 560 in? A modern day Dr Ruth would have had no attractive demos following it?

The station that originated the show in the 80s, KROQ, just revived it in its regular Sunday night timeslot. I see the host was just laid off.


You keep ignoring the hardware issue. New audiences aren't seeking programming on AM anymore. The people who listen are the ones who have always listened. They're all getting older. The minute a simulcast is made available, most of them go there. It's not a programming issue. People don't need AM radio to get the programming they want. These radio stations will continue to make the existing programming available as long as there's demand, and when that ends, they will shut the station down.
 
I have heard 'the new stuff's been tried' statement several times. The problem is, since the 1986-7 inception of Sports Radio, something that I would classify as something new - bringing new listeners significantly to radio - I am hard pressed to come up with additional examples. Roger Ailes and Rush bringing daytime national talk as a viable programming idea in 1988-9 might be another. But after that... I've heard business radio, podcast radio, standup comedy radio tried but with only varying, usually minimal, effort or results.

The creators of those formats and the stations that tried them had to make a decision. Do you risk losing a little money or a whole lot of money?

As I suggested in a post above, anything tried on 560 would not have been the end in itself, but a decently powered laboratory to figure out what would work for radio's future. What could get younger demos listening? If we stick to the argument that nothing will, that they're lost to the internet, commercial radio has an advertiser's expiration date probably close to that of the viability of newsradio.

Very likely true.

GenZ and below don't get their news via KCBS, apparently, and I am pretty sure they won't get their FM music that way either. A free medium with easy access in millions of cars, millions of phones and millions of clock radios with nothing appealing to listen to will be a weird development.

First, I think you'd be shocked at the 2025 penetration level of "clock radios". There are probably more of those in antique malls and estate sales than there are in the bedrooms of America these days.

As for cars and phones, yeah---you can get radio on them. But you can get other, better, more appealing stuff there, too.

I can get Law & Order: SVU reruns on ION on my TV---but I'm watching The White Lotus, The Pitt, Severance, and Yellowjackets on MAX, AppleTV+ and Paramount+. And I'm paying for them, when I could watch reruns on ION for free. Because I know what I'd rather see.

About a week ago, I tuned around my shortwave just to see what was there, and there wasn't anything. This is the future of radio?!?

Probably.

I think it was "Love Lines" that turned Sunday Night FM listening to a new level when it was on. Are we sure that something like that (with a little bit of promotion) would not have got people figuring out how to tune 560 in? A modern day Dr Ruth would have had no attractive demos following it?

On AM radio in San Francisco in 2025? When there are (checks notes) a kajillion sex, dating and relationship podcasts out there able to discuss those subjects without FCC indecency rules and commercials?
 
On AM radio in San Francisco in 2025? When there are (checks notes) a kajillion sex, dating and relationship podcasts out there able to discuss those subjects without FCC indecency rules and commercials?

Plus most morning shows deal with relationship issues as part of their regular topics. Even my local sports station discusses relationship issues.

(Brings new meaning to the phrase "put the puck in the goal" or "the ball in the basket.")
 
But after that... I've heard business radio, podcast radio, standup comedy radio tried but with only varying, usually minimal, effort or results.

I'm gonna come back around to this, too---

The revenue available...even for a success...is SO much lower now.

In 1976, 30 seconds on KFRC in morning drive alone was $500. They ran 14 minutes an hour. Let's skip weekends.

That's $14,000 an hour, $42,000 a day, $10,920,000 a year (based on 260 weekdays per year).

For three hours of the broadcast day (6:00-9:00 a.m.).

KSFO on 560 was the highest-rated AM station without an FM simulcast in San Francisco for years (since KFOG flipped to simulcast KNBR in 2019).

I'll bet you lunch KSFO hasn't grossed $10.9 million 24-7-365 in a lot longer than that.

As Bobby Ocean said:

"The trouble with show business is you've gotta put on a show to get the business, but you gotta get the business to be able to afford to put on the show."
 
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I’m a little surprised that nobody is clearing the full ESPN radio schedule or branding. I know it doesn’t get high ratings and that KNBR is a strong brand, but still. It probably doesn’t help that the Bay Area radio audience doesn’t seem to be to keen on on cookie cutter station names like Jack, Cool, Magic, Sunny and Bob.

I do believe KTCT clears some of it.

Probably not enough revenue to go around to cover the cost.
 
I have heard 'the new stuff's been tried' statement several times. The problem is, since the 1986-7 inception of Sports Radio, something that I would classify as something new - bringing new listeners significantly to radio - I am hard pressed to come up with additional examples.

One of the big problems with new and creative is how we define creativity. If you just define it as creating something brand new from nothing, you might be right. Creative and new, however, are more than that. Remember when 80’s stations were tried around 25 years ago? Those weren’t successful, but, by 2007, 80’s based classic hits had replaced 60’s centric oldies. The brain trust behind radio figured out how to update a format it had almost given up on. Jack FM was something new, too. Alternative rock stations took off in the mid-90’s, too. Modification and enhancement are also forms of innovation and creativity. Most people are far more creative than they ever thought they were or have ever been given credit for. We spend our early lives in bureaucracy and are routinely told creativity only comes from a blank slate. The result stifles creativity and fails to acknowledge real progress.

As I suggested in a post above, anything tried on 560 would not have been the end in itself, but a decently powered laboratory to figure out what would work for radio's future. What could get younger demos listening?

If I had some grand new idea, I wouldn’t be doing it on AM radio. Again, it’s 100 year old technology. It had a good run and outlasted the concept of television that was expected to replace it in the 1950’s, but every mode of technology eventually needs to sunset. If AM is in a death spiral (and some broadcasters clearly seem to think it is), the time to get out is now, before throwing away more good money on something that will never have a return.

About a week ago, I tuned around my shortwave just to see what was there, and there wasn't anything. This is the future of radio?!?

The future of radio is not likely over the air. It’s going to be more like Pandora, Spotify, and Apple Music. Again, every technology has a finite lifespan. I wouldn’t say FM is in a death spiral yet, but it will happen at some point. The last person to hold the licenses will be the one to turn out the lights.

Are we sure that something like that (with a little bit of promotion) would not have got people figuring out how to tune 560 in? A modern day Dr Ruth would have had no attractive demos following it?

The time to try that on AM was 30-40 years ago. Remember, the FCC tried to find a way to revitalize AM. It couldn’t find one. Don’t think companies like iHeart, Cumulus, and Audacy haven’t done research of their own to make their AM properties more appealing. They haven’t found a way because it doesn’t exist. Put the whip away. That horse is dead!

Sports Betting had to have been one of the narrowest of narrowcasting there was, especially in a place where betting was illegal.

Agreed, but it paid the bills.

And I'll still say that why, whatever that unmentionable station in Orlando is doing, isn't being tried in every market where there's a vacant or poorly performing broadcast channel, amazes me.

That has been tried multiple times, and it is still being tried. Audacy, for example, runs talk radio focused more on entertainment and local issues on most of its FM talkers while mostly keeping national politics out. It works well. It’s not an exact clone of WTKS, but it’s based on a similar concept. Notice, also, that Audacy does it on its FM’s. You won’t find that programming on many AM’s unless it’s a simulcast. It’s expensive, and Audacy isn’t making an investment like that on a technology that can’t draw the intended audience.
 
The future of radio is not likely over the air. It’s going to be more like Pandora, Spotify, and Apple Music.

They have their own forms of traditional radio, some even with hosts, and none of them move the meters at all. Apple Music has actually scaled their "Apple Radio" down quite a bit in recent months. The real problem is lack of interest in linear real time radio. People use these music services as a replacement for what used to be their personal record collection. People don't mind radio for short periods in the car. But long form listening is being done on services with no hosts or commercials.
 
Most of us who love our current technology, wish it would last forever, but in our heart of hearts we do know that it is indeed finite. There is, however much to be said about "infinity". Einstein posited that there are only two things that are infinite: "the universe and stupidity, but I'm not sure about the universe".
 
Audacy, for example, runs talk radio focused more on entertainment and local issues on most of its FM talkers while mostly keeping national politics out.
This would be in my opinion, great news if it is in fact being tried on a significant scale. However, I tried looking at the top 10 markets and aside from KRLD-FM and WEEI-FM, which are both sports talkers, I couldn't see anything that would resemble an Audacy FM talker. Are there examples in smaller markets? I would not think the Dallas or Boston stations would want to deviate too much from sports to go into general interest WTKS type talk. In fact, if the KEGL failure teaches anything, sports and general interest listeners are two different animals.

The only other things I'll suggest/ask regarding 560 or any other AM as a lab for new programming - 1. Since most GenZ listening is on their phone, why is an app not an idea? I say this only because an internet station without a broadcast outlet is, for an advertiser, just an internet station among 1000 others. A San Francisco radio app with something you can also readily hear in your car is another thing, one of about 50 (is that not significant to an advertiser?). 2. As Mr. Fybush points out, once the license is turned in, it is likely dead. I don't think anyone would advocate for blowing up even a moderately performing FM to experiment. But if you have a decently powered property that is going to get canned otherwise, isn't that an opportunity to see what could play and transferred to an FM when the time is right? I think I heard that WTKS was in fact an AM station originally.
 
Since most GenZ listening is on their phone, why is an app not an idea?

All major radio companies have apps. They promote them actively on-air.



I don't think anyone would advocate for blowing up even a moderately performing FM to experiment. But if you have a decently powered property that is going to get canned otherwise, isn't that an opportunity to see what could play and transferred to an FM when the time is right?

In San Francisco, that's how KNBR and KCBS went to FM. The problem for Cumulus is they own 4 AMs and only 2 FMs. One is already running a simulcast of an AM.
 
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I say this only because an internet station without a broadcast outlet is, for an advertiser, just an internet station among 1000 others.
That is not how ad agencies buy. They buy impressions... the number of measured or estimated people who are likely to listen.

Any internet station selling to significant advertisers must show (or be shown in a measurement service the advertiser uses) the size of the audience.
A San Francisco radio app with something you can also readily hear in your car is another thing, one of about 50 (is that not significant to an advertiser?).
That is not how ad agencies look at media. Even billboards are measured by the count of cars going by each board. ddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd
2. As Mr. Fybush points out, once the license is turned in, it is likely dead. I don't think anyone would advocate for blowing up even a moderately performing FM to experiment. But if you have a decently powered property that is going to get canned otherwise, isn't that an opportunity to see what could play and transferred to an FM when the time is right? I think I heard that WTKS was in fact an AM station originally.
This is not about AM and FM. It is about listeners who want certain content on demand when they are ready for it. AM and FM and even streams that are pre-programmed do not do that.
 


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