Tibbs, as usual, very well said. I want to key in on this sentence, because people may not know this dirty little secret about conservative talk radio: It has its own advertising system. It exists outside the traditional advertising agency system. It came about more than ten years ago in the wake of Limbaugh's Fluke scandal. All the big advertisers pulled out. Rush used his influence to create a new source for revenue: Advertisers that supported his political views. There are lots of them. The pillow guy was one example. A recent company is Patriot Cellular, a competitor to other cell services. People who listen to conservative talk are unified and loyal. These advertisers know that people who listen to conservative talk listen very intently. They have a captive audience. In a way, they are very much like the sports radio audience. So yes, they are probably making money with this station. They may not be getting any traditional agency business, but they don't need it. The patriot network is filling the void.
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770 WABC Number 1 ?
- Thread starter Always interested
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Tibbs, as usual, very well said. I want to key in on this sentence, because people may not know this dirty little secret about conservative talk radio: It has its own advertising system. It exists outside the traditional advertising agency system. It came about more than ten years ago in the wake of Limbaugh's Fluke scandal. All the big advertisers pulled out. Rush used his influence to create a new source for revenue: Advertisers that supported his political views. There are lots of them. The pillow guy was one example. A recent company is Patriot Cellular, a competitor to other cell services. People who listen to conservative talk are unified and loyal. These advertisers know that people who listen to conservative talk listen very intently. They have a captive audience. In a way, they are very much like the sports radio audience. So yes, they are probably making money with this station. They may not be getting any traditional agency business, but they don't need it. The patriot network is filling the void.
The pharmaceutical ads generally run on TV as they are very, very, very dependent on creating a mood through visuals that can continue to show while they give all the "you can get a stroke from this drug" disclaimers.
On TV, there are easy buys on ad sponsored channels and streams that reach those viewers. There is little or no radio equivalent, and trying to buy 55+ on radio in 50, 100, 150 markets is very tedious. And they don't get the "mood" video.
There seems like a lot of guessing games and back-and-forth here over whether WABC is getting agency buys, local ad business, or MAGA ecosystem sponsors. The answer is presumably hiding in plain sight.
Why don't one of you guys who listen to that station all day make a list of the ads being aired and share it here? It should be pretty easy to figure out what the business model is.
A lot of the paid stuff is local direct and local agency business. As I mentioned, "Cats" relationship with the local business community is strong, and he can even use his supermarket chain relations to get on local distributor and vendor buys, too.
Because of the views of current leading mayoral candidate, I've been told that a number of "new" advertisers are supporting the station as it tries to prevent his election.
This is what I mean. One day you're telling us a radio station can't sell when its demos look like WABC's, the next you're telling us all the reasons it can.
Again, hearsay and speculation while the real answer is being broadcast free to anyone who wishes to log it. So someone post the advertiser list. Then there can be a more fact-based discussion about it.
All of this fanboy fawning over WABC doesn't hide the fact that, programing-wise, the station is just another run-of-the-mill conservative talk and opinion outlet. The only difference is that WABC is locally-owned and almost 100% locally-programed. Is it successful? That depends. Give Catsimatidis credit where it is due for making the station somewhat relevant again...and for propping it up with his own money.
WABC is a station with crap programing appealing only to the lowest-common-denominator of listeners. The only interests being served by the station in its current incarnation are that of the owner, not the general public. And that's the bottom line.
WABC is a station with crap programing appealing only to the lowest-common-denominator of listeners. The only interests being served by the station in its current incarnation are that of the owner, not the general public. And that's the bottom line.
And at least part of what's being propped up with his own money is a show hosted by someone who had no qualms speaking at a white nationalist conference and bragging about it on Twitter/X.
I wonder how people putting money into his station because of the current mayoral candidate feel about that particular philosophy.
I wonder how people putting money into his station because of the current mayoral candidate feel about that particular philosophy.
I have said before that stations that attract just old 55+ demos generally don't do well. Some older leaning ones, like WLW and WSB, sell partly due to their name and tradition and even then, they have a huge percentage of local direct "I grew up with that station" advertisers; they also sell "cheap" and have lots more ads per hour than music stations.
It takes a local sales department that works differently to sell that demo. A good example is WECK in Buffalo: a local "name" broadcaster in a traditional market has parlayed relationships into a successful station... of course, WECK has 3 FM translators. WABC has one FM way out on far eastern LI.
Group broadcasters who want to deal with transactional sales just don't know how to do this well. It is labor intensive, and requires 100% management focus.
Those of us who get data from a paid source can't list it. If anyone wants to log WABC for at least 12 hours (6 AM to 6 PM) M-F on a Thursday or Friday can provide a partial listing that comes close to a subscription monitor.
Their half-million listeners do not think it is crap. And the fact it is doing it nearly all locally is commendable.
Again, a half-million listeners who listen on average a lot think differently.
This isn't hearsay or speculation. Cats is most definitely using all of his resources, influences, and connections to ensure someone other than Zorhan Mamdani–whom he derisively refers to as "The Z Man" because he can't be bothered to pronounce his name properly–wins the election.
As far as an advertiser list, you are better off listening to the station in real time because you aren't going to get one, same as trying to find a listing of Red Apple Audio Network "affiliates" outside of NYC. Good luck with that.
I think not saying the name is sort of theatrical. It intentionally demeans the candidate using a name that is sort of like a cartoon action character. Considering that the candidate proposes a number of things that would directly affect Cats, I am sure he will do everything he can to prevent his election... and leave the City if the Z-Man is elected.
Best done 6 AM to 7PM on Thursday or Friday. That should get about 80% of the accounts, and all the major ones.
It reminded me of when some conservative hosts called the 44th President of the United States by his full name, with extra, exaggerated emphasis placed on his middle name. Bill Cunningham at WLW did this repeatedly. Demeaning, disrespectful, and dishonest.
But you know what's really sad? Catsimatidis can use his unlimited wealth towards some of the things which Mamdani's platform is advocating for. WABC could discuss these topics because they are very relevant–tko some New Yorkers, even more relevant than the constant emphasis placed on crime and public safety.
Instead, Cats sets the tone based on his agenda. It's all about how bad NYC is, how a Democratic Socialist will scare the business community and the wealthy one-percenters into leaving, and everything else in-between. Oh, and praising Trump at every opportunity.
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The format and hosts on WABC do not believe that this particular candidate's platform is realistic, achievable or practical. So they explain why they think that way.
Non radio sidebar: a working wealthy person does not have an "unlimited" amount of cash sitting around with which they can use towards community programs. Nearly all of a wealthy person's money is invested in the businesses they own and operate, and they generally have very little "free cash" to use for anything else. Where you see large donations is among later generation descendants of entrepreneurs who do not run a business they inherited or who have retired and can safely sell their investments before they die. Example: Bill Gates and his ex-wife.
Do you feel that still applies to a station like WABC which, as you very articulately note in posts in this thread, relies less on agency buys and more on direct local ad placements from sources that may place more value on older demos?
Advertising for conservative talk isn't based on agencies or demos. It's based on ideology. Stations that promote the ideology get a share of the ad business. That's all they have to do. They don't even have to get big ratings. As I said, it's similar to sports/talk.
Regular radio doesn't have an agenda. It has a format which attracts customers. The REAL customers are NOT the listeners. The REAL customers are the agencies buying the station format to promote products. So the listener is the target the agency is reaching by buying ads on the station. So, in a sense the radio station the middleman. That is hard for non-radio folks to perceive, because so many feel an almost human connection to the stations.
In WABC's case, Cats is the salesman, the radio station and the intended customer (listener) and seller of the commerical buyers. That's a ton to take in.
A NY/NJ distributor may want him to buy 10,000 cases of Tide detergent. So they entice him by buying ads on his station. Basically, that money would be "free goods" in his store. But that is often illegal. Advertising is not. Tide helps out. The local distributor helps out. Cats makes out inside the store and on the air.
Triple win.
Then add on the political side of the business, Cats plays to his loyal listenership (which, by the way I would think would be a top 10 ranked number of actual listeners listening in the US to a non-religious single owner station) and promotes his agenda too them. The entire concept brings him similarly-minded loyalty, respect and business/revenue, plus the actual ad revenue from the candidates/parties/pacts. <So he brings these "agencies" the format. Only the "agencies" in this case are politicians or local advertisers/friends/entities. And possibly some actual real agency buys, too. Obviously, the political ads come and go.
This is a simplistic approach to help some folks on here see why radio can exist and be very different behind the scenes and come off like just another station when actually listening. I know some above is certainly very general and does not even exactly apply to WABC. I tried to sum it up in a few paragraphs.
A littel off topic - Technically speaking: Cats is somewhat caught in this mayoral election. I find this most fascinating.
He has to stop his new grocery store nemesis. He has to keep Trump happy with Adams. He has to worth with Adams and keep his loyal base shopping. He has to stay friendly with his "part time" air personality who is running still as a Republican (and was staying up there in the polls) and figure out how to handle Cuomo, if he makes a back. All that alone ain't easy too pull off. If he does, he is indeed a master puppetier, politician himself and businessman.
Oh, and another thing. We are talking business here. Not politics. All the chatter about name-calling, Obama references, which side of the politics you come from jades your persepective. And rightly so. But, in this case...erase that you don't like Cats or his politics.. and tell us where you think he has failed in buying WABC. I will suspect we will get dead air on that.
In WABC's case, Cats is the salesman, the radio station and the intended customer (listener) and seller of the commerical buyers. That's a ton to take in.
A NY/NJ distributor may want him to buy 10,000 cases of Tide detergent. So they entice him by buying ads on his station. Basically, that money would be "free goods" in his store. But that is often illegal. Advertising is not. Tide helps out. The local distributor helps out. Cats makes out inside the store and on the air.
Triple win.
Then add on the political side of the business, Cats plays to his loyal listenership (which, by the way I would think would be a top 10 ranked number of actual listeners listening in the US to a non-religious single owner station) and promotes his agenda too them. The entire concept brings him similarly-minded loyalty, respect and business/revenue, plus the actual ad revenue from the candidates/parties/pacts. <So he brings these "agencies" the format. Only the "agencies" in this case are politicians or local advertisers/friends/entities. And possibly some actual real agency buys, too. Obviously, the political ads come and go.
This is a simplistic approach to help some folks on here see why radio can exist and be very different behind the scenes and come off like just another station when actually listening. I know some above is certainly very general and does not even exactly apply to WABC. I tried to sum it up in a few paragraphs.
A littel off topic - Technically speaking: Cats is somewhat caught in this mayoral election. I find this most fascinating.
He has to stop his new grocery store nemesis. He has to keep Trump happy with Adams. He has to worth with Adams and keep his loyal base shopping. He has to stay friendly with his "part time" air personality who is running still as a Republican (and was staying up there in the polls) and figure out how to handle Cuomo, if he makes a back. All that alone ain't easy too pull off. If he does, he is indeed a master puppetier, politician himself and businessman.
Oh, and another thing. We are talking business here. Not politics. All the chatter about name-calling, Obama references, which side of the politics you come from jades your persepective. And rightly so. But, in this case...erase that you don't like Cats or his politics.. and tell us where you think he has failed in buying WABC. I will suspect we will get dead air on that.
You summed what I say up in a few sentences. I am the king of brevity, but only when on the air. Obviously.
Spoken like a true politician!
- Reporter: "Can you give me a specific example?"
- Politician: "Sure, there are many ..." then goes on to change the subject.
My posts were not even exclusively about WABC, but rather, whether or not the 6+ ratings have any value. I tried to make that case. I'm well aware of the conventional wisdom, but even experts sometimes get it wrong.
Wait wait wait wait ... are you actually saying that the guy whose name is CATSIMADITIS can't be bothered learning to pronounce Mamdani????
First, Arbitron/Nielsen did a disservice when they changed 12+ to 6+ with the advent of the PPM. Most 12 year olds are starting to have some agency. They can go to the store by themselves. They have some allowance, or money from relatives like grandparents, or even some kind of part-time work that puts a little money in their pocket. They can buy a candy bar, or a tee shirt or pair of earrings. But you really can't say that about a kindergartner, or even a first or second grader. They're still dependent on mommy or daddy for just about everything. The 12 y/o can pick what station they want to listen to (though these days it's more likely to be Spotify), while the 6 y/o listens to whatever their parents tune to, radio or not.
But more importantly, not everything about radio involves selling listeners to advertisers. So many on RD focus on the ad sales aspect of the medium. But if you're an NPR-affiliate noncom, your ad sales are nonexistent. You "sell" on-air mentions to underwriters, be they corporations, local businesses or foundations. They want to reach ears, and they mostly don't care whether those ears are in the 25-54 demo or 55+. They care if you're open to learning something about them. For them, cume is a much more meaningful statistic. How many people in the listening area will hear your blurb? Not, how many 41 year old females with 2.3 kids and a soccer game in the afternoon.
There is analogous analysis for commercial stations, I think. If your station is getting 0.0% of the ears in your market (or even, trying to be fair, the area you put a clean signal into), you are not operating in the public interest, because you're not broadcasting programming that your market's interested in hearing. Again, not your share of 41 y/o fems (or any other demo metric), but your percentage of total ears in your listening area. If your cume is approaching zero, you're talking to yourself, and that's not in the PICN.
So while the very low end of 6+ (and to be fair, the very upper end too) may indeed be useless, the basic concept of measuring the totality of your listenership as a function of total available ears in your market is not. Which is where any station's cume, and share of total cume comes in.
So basically we're in agreement.