99.9 ANNOUNCING A FLIP

[Wimmmex]

The FCC has authorized the use of HD2s and 3s as originators for translators.

I think the FCC wording allows HD2's, 3's, etc...to feed a translator....not originate.

Somewhat ambiguous and unclear.

To add to the vagueness....can the HD feed come from an translator signal of a different license? In this case WNNW.

I believe Scott Fybush once said here the situation is of questionable legality.

 

[Deleted User]

I will check the HD's of the Eagle Costa stations today to see if they are the same as the 98.9 translator

 

[SteveThomas]

From what I can see, that Valley 98.9 translator was once attached to WCCM when it was operating at 1110 AM between 2017-2021. Then 1110AM became WMVX, and WCCM went to 1490. I can't see where Valley 98.9 is originating, unless it's from an HD2 somewhere. The FCC has authorized the use of HD2s and 3s as originators for translators.

But the question that is stuck in my mind is can an FM translator, granted to serve an AM station license, be permitted to broadcast anything else other than the same audio programming of the AM station it was intended to support?

 

[TheBigA]

But the question that is stuck in my mind is can an FM translator, granted to serve an AM station license, be permitted to broadcast anything else other than the same audio programming of the AM station it was intended to support?

Which AM station was it intended to support? What I saw was that for four years, it supported 1110AM. At that time, 1110AM was programming Valley 98.9. The format of that AM station then changed. I don't know where they Valley format is coming from now.

This issue came up in another thread last year:

https://www.radiodiscussions.com/threads/wror-hd-1.749642/page-2

I also saw somewhere that Costa is in the process of selling one or more of their stations.

 

[davideduardo]

But the question that is stuck in my mind is can an FM translator, granted to serve an AM station license, be permitted to broadcast anything else other than the same audio programming of the AM station it was intended to support?

Only certain translators were linked to specific AMs and only for a certain period of time. Michi is the expert here, but in many cases a translator can change its origination source.

 

[fybush]

The translators that are permanently or semi-permanently bound to specific AM stations were granted in several filing windows in 2016-2017.

This translator is not one of those.

It's been operating at or just beyond the edge of the FCC rules for a while now. All translators are considered secondary services that may not originate their own programming. There's broad leeway these days about what they can rebroadcast - the program feed can come from a primary FM signal (the original rule for translators allowed only FMs to originate), or from an AM station, or from an HD subchannel of an FM station. But it has to come from SOMEWHERE.

FCC enforcement is understaffed and overworked, and won't just go out finding these situations on their own. But if they catch wind of it, there can and will be consequences.

And there are plenty of these around the country. There's one very well known medium sized broadcaster (whose late CEO was vicious about filing complaints about his competitors) that's been operating at least three translators in a market near me with no parent signal feeding them... and this has gone on since at least 2019.

They're supposed to be fed by HD subchannels of full power FMs, but one of those FMs hasn't operated in HD for years.

 

[jlehmann]

Valley 98.9’s “primary” is the HD2 of the 102.9 translator. Is that legal? I have no idea

 

[Wimmmex]

I will check the HD's of the Eagle Costa stations today to see if they are the same as the 98.9 translator

102.9 HD2 is running the “Valley” programming…..but 102.9 is attached to WNNW (800AM)

Valley 98.9 is attached to WMVX(1110AM) which is running separate programming.

 

[fybush]

FCC records show that the 98.9 translator is attached to WCCM 1490 in Haverhill, the old WHAV. Translators are required to notify the FCC when they change primary stations, and they can't just pick any primary station - if you're relaying an AM, the 60 dBu of the translator has to be contained within either the 2 mV/m daytime AM contour or a 25 mile radius of the AM site, whichever is larger.

Even if the 98.9 translator could somehow claim the 102.9 translator as its "primary," there's a problem there, too - the 98.9 signal extends beyond the 60 dBu of the 102.9 signal, and so it can't legally operate as a 250-watt "fill-in" translator.

 

[Tired Of It All]

Speaking of "flipping", Talk1200 has been airing a "smiley face braces" spot in SPANISH for the last two days. Smiley Face Braces is in Orlando FL.

 

[Deleted User]

102.9 HD2 is RDS'ing as "Valley 98.9"

the funny thing is that on 102.9 HD3 there is "Big FM Boston" which has a great playlist ( as does 98.9) for old geezers like me, to the point it got a preset on my radio

 

[Wimmmex]

FCC records show that the 98.9 translator is attached to WCCM 1490 in Haverhill

Valley identifies as WMVX as a legal ID. (along with mention of the translator calls.)

And the Radio-Locator data show 98.9 as running a LatinX format (since it is supposed to be connected to WCCM 1490 Haverhill. Whatever the deal is with the lack of AM originating station for Valley, they don't even seem to correspond to what the FCC has on file.

 

[davideduardo]

The translators that are permanently or semi-permanently bound to specific AM stations were granted in several filing windows in 2016-2017.

I did not realize that some bonds to AMs by translators are permanent; I thought they were all temporary. How does one tell what the status of a translator is in this regard?

It's been operating at or just beyond the edge of the FCC rules for a while now. All translators are considered secondary services that may not originate their own programming. There's broad leeway these days about what they can rebroadcast - the program feed can come from a primary FM signal (the original rule for translators allowed only FMs to originate), or from an AM station, or from an HD subchannel of an FM station. But it has to come from SOMEWHERE.

This is why Nielsen does not list listening to translators independently in ratings: It lists the originating source AM, FM or HD channel and combines the translator listening with it.

FCC enforcement is understaffed and overworked, and won't just go out finding these situations on their own. But if they catch wind of it, there can and will be consequences.

Please, tell someone to visit Houston. There is enough work there to make using one of those "long stay" motel locations practical.

A friend called the operator of one of the scofflaws in HOU and the response was, "oh, you are one of those people" as if insistence on compliance was mean and nasty.

 

[Wimmmex]

It's been operating at or just beyond the edge of the FCC rules for a while now. All translators are considered secondary services that may not originate their own programming. There's broad leeway these days about what they can rebroadcast - the program feed can come from a primary FM signal (the original rule for translators allowed only FMs to originate), or from an AM station, or from an HD sub-channel of an FM station. But it has to come from SOMEWHERE

The question is....can an HD sub channel be the originator (of the programming)...or is it only allowed to be a method of feeding/transmitting (i.e...getting it to there from here) of the originator's programming to the translator.

 

[fybush]

The question is....can an HD sub channel be the originator (of the programming)...or is it only allowed to be a method of feeding/transmitting (i.e...getting it to there from here) of the originator's programming to the translator.

The FCC's position is this: a translator of a full-power FM station can translate any portion of that station's signal, including an HD subchannel. So, yes, it's perfectly legal to originate programming on an HD2 and use a translator to rebroadcast that program on an analog FM signal, as long as all the other translator rules are followed properly.

That's still not what's happening here, though. There's a huge gray area about whether you can originate programming on an HD sub *of a translator that is itself operating in HD*, and even if that turns out to be legal, you still can't just throw that programming on another translator that is licensed to be relaying a different AM station.

 

[fybush]

I did not realize that some bonds to AMs by translators are permanent; I thought they were all temporary. How does one tell what the status of a translator is in this regard?

It's a condition on the license authorization.

It depends when the translator was authorized, and you can look back at the application history for that. Translators that were moved in the 250-mile window in 2016 were locked to their new AM parent for four years of continuous operation from the time they were moved. Most of those are now free to be changed to new parent stations.

The ones that were granted as brand new authorizations out of the 2017 window are permanently locked to their AM parents, for as long as the FCC doesn't change those rules.

 

[gr8oldies]

Only certain translators were linked to specific AMs and only for a certain period of time. Michi is the expert here, but in many cases a translator can change its origination source.

I'm aware of at least a couple AMs that signed off after the minimum amount of time the translator had to be tied to the FN, opting for an HD2/3 whatever as the originating station

 

[VoiceofWayne]

The question is....can an HD sub channel be the originator (of the programming)...or is it only allowed to be a method of feeding/transmitting (i.e...getting it to there from here) of the originator's programming to the translator.

All that is needed is to originate programming on the HD2 or 3 or HDx.. The translator does not need to relay the actual subchannel but can be fed by other means such as stl or internet. In theory one could use a low bandwidth crappy sounding HDx but feed the translator with a high quality direct link, similar to how AM translators are fed.

 

[Wimmmex]

All that is needed is to originate programming on the HD2 or 3 or HDx..

I am not certain the HD2 or 3 signal can be considered the originator.

I think the FCC rules say "feed"....which is a method of getting it from here to there.

It doesn't say that the HD signal can "originate"...and in this case, the HD2., 3 signal is that of another license, which again is fuzzy.

Scott seems to believe that they are on the edge of legality...maybe he can shed some light as to why they might be on this side of the law or that side of the law.

I'm aware of at least a couple AMs that signed off after the minimum amount of time the translator had to be tied to the FN, opting for an HD2/3 whatever as the originating station

Some have petitioned the FCC to turn off the AM....but I don't think any have and been able to keep their translator on.

 

[fybush]

All that is needed is to originate programming on the HD2 or 3 or HDx.. The translator does not need to relay the actual subchannel but can be fed by other means such as stl or internet. In theory one could use a low bandwidth crappy sounding HDx but feed the translator with a high quality direct link, similar to how AM translators are fed.

Right, which brings up another issue with this 98.9 signal.

The translator rules allow you to use "any means" of delivery, but only if the translator is licensed as a "fill-in" translator, meaning its 60 dBu contour is entirely encompassed by the 60 dBu of the primary FM station (or by the 2 mV/m daytime AM contour or 25 mile radius from the parent AM site.)

If 98.9's "parent" station is W275BH on 102.9, it can't be a fill-in for 102.9, because it covers a lot of area in NH beyond 102.9's contour.

There are other rules for non-fill-in translators that are much more restrictive: they do have to be fed off the air if they're commercial, they are limited to much lower power levels (not the 250 watts 98.9 runs), and if they're commercial they have to be owned by a completely separate entity from the parent FM station.