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A CHALLENGE FOR AIR AMERICA

A

ABQTom

Guest
Great article by Victor Davis Hanson - "All's Fair in Love in Talk Radio." Dr. Hanson is against the fairness doctrine, and states, "Rather than promoting government audit of our opinion media, liberals should master talk radio..."

Jones has mastered it with Bill Press, Ed Schultz, and Stephanie Miller.
Peter. B. Collins and Thom Hartmann have mastered it.
Alan Colmes and Jay Diamond have mastered it.
So this statement is a goal for the struggling Air America folks.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/07/alls_fair_in_love_and_talk_rad.html
 
He leaves out one big thing or maybe you might have left it out. The people you mentioned have no numbers around the country either 12 plus total adults or 25-54 total adults. This is the thing none of these folks want to own up too. With the exception of a few markets (Portland being one) the numbers suck everywhere else. My numbers are not good either. The format is not being done right. Anytime you go to people with an agenda and no entertainment value you lose. Someone should tell Tom Hartman this is not a classroom. Also it's not interesting to hear him debate conservatives who no one knows. And doing day after day is also a drag. I could go on. Non right-wing radio will work if it's done right. And Air America does not do it right. No one keeps an eye on talent. If talent is left to its own it will come a part. Notice how Shawn Hannity's numbers are going down. Someone should clue him in to the fact that carrying water for Bush and the GOP is not working. In fact here in Denver he has a ton of outside media and a TV show, and he still can't beat KOA or my station at times. What does that tell you? Politics everyday every hour is ridding a train to death. Even Limbaugh's numbers are down from what they once were. Their are all kinds of rumors out there Air America is having money trouble again. Most of the American people hate politics. Look at the poll numbers. I'm not saying you can't do it. I'm saying you can't do it all the time. Look at the format of Count Down on MSNBC. That's what talk radio should be like. Get on the air and keep saying Bush is bad, Bush is a member of a crime family or the war in Iraq is about freeing Iraq and people are going to leave.
 
The only way to "master" talk radio is to do talk radio.

If/when the Fairness Doctrine is reinstated, it won't change Darwin's theory of survival of the fittest. Liberal talkers will get on the air in big and small markets. Those who cut it in small markets will move up. Those who cut it in large markets will stay. Those who can't cut it in large or small markets will be replaced.

If Boyce, Parks and the rest have to put liberals on the air, sooner or later they will find (or develop) liberal hosts who have "mastered" liberal talk. Now they have absolutely no incentive to do so (and therefore they don't). Boyce brags about his ability to "develop" conservative hosts. Is he unable to develop liberal hosts (or hasn't he even tried)?

The industry "experts" have painted themselves into a corner by claiming liberal talk can't or won't work. If they tried and made it work, they be wrong. If they tried and failed, they wouldn't be such experts. So they just keep repeating "liberal talk can't work" like a mantra, and blaming "liberals" outside of the radio industry for not being able to do what they themselves are either unwilling or unable to do.

In addition to bringing back the Fairness Doctrine, the administration and congress should:
Restore ownership caps.
Require stations to be local-live at least 50 percent of the time.

More players means a better game. Radio is heading toward extinction because the management and programming gene pool is too limited.
 
Once again Jay Marvin hit the nail right on the head. Jay, I 'll say it again I listened to you all the time when you were in Chicago
and I am a pretty conservative guy. I am also very independent, I do not consider myself republican or democrat anymore. Jay
the reason while you will continue in radio and a lot of others might not is because you don't carry water for anyone. You are
honest and sincere, you drop the politics and shoot from the heart. Whether it is discussing your personal issues and how you
got through them or helping someone else through some of their problems. If there were more hosts like you talkradio would be
much better for it.
 
This may be an utterly naive statement, but I believe the problem is that radio stations are OWNED by agenda-driven corporations. In that situation, it doesn't really matter what's profitable programming, because you have commercial support regardless of whether anyone listens. It is almost as if radio is now more valuable as propaganda space rather than profit space. Corporations pump money into non-profit assets all the time, because they fulfill another purpose for them. Once corporations grow to that size, they can squeeze out businesses that require a profit to exist. This is historically the monopoly stage of capitalism.
 
So if all the "ee-vil" big corporations aere subsidizing conservative talk stations becuase they want to promote right-wing ideology to the uneducated masses, why am I seeing all of these ads about "being green". Allstate now has a "green" insurance policy for gosh sakes. The "green" movenment tends to be on the left side of the political spectrum. Aside from that, the se "big corporations" could certainly find a way to reach more people with a "conservative ideology"..such as buying ads ion "My Name is Earl"
 
Jay Marvin wrote:

"He leaves out one big thing or maybe you might have left it out. The people you mentioned have no numbers around the country either 12 plus total adults or 25-54 total adults. This is the thing none of these folks want to own up too. With the exception of a few markets (Portland being one) the numbers suck everywhere else. My numbers are not good either."

Tom:
Along with Portland (KPOJ), Albuquerque (KABQ) and Seattle (KPTK) are doing well. Progressive talk KABQ Albuquerque has the highest TSL 35+ of any station in the market. The mostly liberal KGO / San Francisco is also doing well. Any ideas of why KABQ is doing so well? 25-54 ratings: http://www.ccnewmexico.com/main.html

Jay continues:

" The format is not being done right. Anytime you go to people with an agenda and no entertainment value you lose."

Tom:
KGO hosts in San Francisco are entertaining and passionate - Karel, Ray, Ronn Owens, Dr. Dean Edell, Gill Gross, etc.
Bernie Ward, John Rothmann, Bob Brinker, are more serious and intellectual.
Dave Ross in Seattle (KIRO) ran as a Democrat, and is left-leaning, but has guests/callers from both sides without getting upset.

Doug Basham/Lydia Cornell, out of both Vegas and Los Angeles, is very critical of the President, but if you listen a few days to Doug and Lydia interact, you'll see that Doug has a tremendous sense of humor. Doug is hilarious and has some of the best guests of any show. This show should go back to syndication like it was 2005-2006 http://bashamandcornell.com

Jay wrote:
Someone should tell Tom Hartman this is not a classroom. Also it's not interesting to hear him debate conservatives who no one knows. And doing day after day is also a drag.

Tom:
Interesting that Hartmann brought numbers UP in Albuquerque AND Seattle. Seems that cities with high "Creative Class Scores" (Richard Florida PhD) LOVE Hartmann - that also includes Santa Fe and all of Northern New Mexico. Albuquerque/Santa Fe/Portland/Seattle/San Francisco - Western US Cities with high creative class scores and highly dedicated progressive activists.

Jay wrote:
I could go on.

Tom:
Please do! Thanks for your insights!


Jay Marvin wrote

Non right-wing radio will work if it's done right. And Air America does not do it right. No one keeps an eye on talent. If talent is left to its own it will come a part. Notice how Shawn Hannity's numbers are going down. Someone should clue him in to the fact that carrying water for Bush and the GOP is not working. In fact here in Denver he has a ton of outside media and a TV show, and he still can't beat KOA or my station at times. What does that tell you? Politics everyday every hour is ridding a train to death. Even Limbaugh's numbers are down from what they once were. Their are all kinds of rumors out there Air America is having money trouble again. Most of the American people hate politics. Look at the poll numbers. I'm not saying you can't do it. I'm saying you can't do it all the time. Look at the format of Count Down on MSNBC. That's what talk radio should be like. Get on the air and keep saying Bush is bad, Bush is a member of a crime family or the war in Iraq is about freeing Iraq and people are going to leave.
 
Jay Marvin says:
Notice how Shawn Hannity's numbers are going down. Someone should clue him in to the fact that carrying water for Bush and the GOP is not working. In fact here in Denver he has a ton of outside media and a TV show, and he still can't beat KOA or my station at times. What does that tell you?

Notice what? Where? You are making that up. Hannity is on 520 radio stations, second only to Rush in national listening. On that many stations, there are always stations that are up and down...but Sean's numbers are not going down nationally.

And as for beating KOA...you fail to point out that Sean is on KNUS, the Salem owned talker there, and is the highest rated show they have. It is unrealistic to think he is going to beat KOA, which is the market leading newstalker Clear Channel owns.

Oh...and learn to spell. It is Sean Hannity.

pb
 
Phil Boyce said:
And as for beating KOA...you fail to point out that Sean is on KNUS, the Salem owned talker there, and is the highest rated show they have. It is unrealistic to think he is going to beat KOA, which is the market leading newstalker Clear Channel owns.

This is one of the reasons so-called lib-talk never had a fighting chnace (among others). They were Johnny-come-latelies bannished to lesser and sometimes even suburban signals.

Gee, imagine that: not being able to make any headway with a brand new format on weaker and/or long-since-forgotten signals. And they couldn't even do it in a year? Wow.

Of course it didn't help that many of their hosts were horrible radio performers.

Let's face it: Libtalk had NOTHING going for it, unless you consider that most Americans would have found something they could've agreed with them on. Had the hosts been showman and had shows on signals people were in the habit of checking out, things may have been different, but not much since the format was lauched based on an ideology rather than an entertainment goal.

This idea, however, that conservatives are the only ones who know how to entertain is ridiculous. There are just as many boring conservative hosts as liberal, maybe even more, what with all those one-trick Limbaugh clones running around.
 
"This is one of the reasons so-called lib-talk never had a fighting chnace (among others). They were Johnny-come-latelies bannished to lesser and sometimes even suburban signals.

Gee, imagine that: not being able to make any headway with a brand new format on weaker and/or long-since-forgotten signals. And they couldn't even do it in a year? Wow."

tom:
Oh really? the 50,000 directonal watts of KGO n/t 810 in San Francisco is a "long since forgotten signal?" The 50,000 watts of WINZ 960 Miami have been forgotten? How about the 50,000 watts of KIRO/Seattle? Or, 50kW KPTK-AM Seattle? Oh...and Clear Channel in Portland raised their liberal station KPOJ to 25,000 watts. As for Jay Marvin, he has 50,000 watts day (less at night) covering much of Colorado and into New Mexico and Arizona on the skywave.
Better watch out, there are big time DX-ers on this board! :)
 
ABQTom said:
Oh really? the 50,000 directonal watts of KGO n/t 810 in San Francisco is a "long since forgotten signal?" The 50,000 watts of WINZ 960 Miami have been forgotten? How about the 50,000 watts of KIRO/Seattle? Or, 50kW KPTK-AM Seattle? Oh...and Clear Channel in Portland raised their liberal station KPOJ to 25,000 watts. As for Jay Marvin, he has 50,000 watts day (less at night) covering much of Colorado and into New Mexico and Arizona on the skywave.
Better watch out, there are big time DX-ers on this board! :)

Last time I checked, KGO has been #1 in the market since 1977. So you've made my point. Thank you.

The point you clearly MISSED, was that the overwhelming majority of signals that failed while carrying that fare, were inferior and/or long since forgotten.

Read it again, it may sink in.
 
No, I'm not making it up. What I saw of the last book in 25-54 Hannity was down in Chicago, LA, NYC, Tampa, and here. He was also down in other markets as well. Could it be I saw the wrong info, but I don't think so. As far as Denver goes no one is going to beat KOA. But KNUS has a good signal and a good spot on the dial. Hannity had more out door than anyone in the market, and couldn't beat my station let alone KHOW. This is not attack on Hannity as a person. He's one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet. As far as Hartman and AAR in the key markets like New York, LA, and others he has no numbers, and if he's doing so great why is AAR having so much money problems? My point in all this is to say talk radio needs to change and like his politics or not people like Glen Beck or any host that is a little left or right of center, and who can talk about other stuff rather than politics 24/7 is the wave of the future.
 
Jay..good to see you on the board. I do remember WLS when you were there, and the hosts did mix it up. Don and Roma with Don being the crotchety curmudgeon, Roe Conn doing all sorts of topics, and Catehrine Jons who could talk about the news of the day and also relationship topics, divorce, and lighter things. I didn't always like your act then, but it definately fit the signal and time slot (radio geek that I am, I loved the show you did after Wolfman Jack passed away). One station had a slogan "We talk about your life"..and maybe there's a market for more talk in that vain. I like Mike McConnell (WLW)'s Friday topics such as "flushes with greatness" (famous people you met in a restroon), customer service hassles, etc.
 
I could even chimed in that even Druggie Limbaugh numbers are down. 16 million to 14 million. (Remember Rush did abuse Oxycontin) I am gald that WVKO AM in Columbus now broadcasting Progressive Talk. This time we would do it right.
 
Well, there were nights I didn't like my act either. I think the best radio I did was when Grant and I use to screw around and have fun. But you're right there was a lot of talk show hosts with all kinds of takes on things. Now WLS is all right-wing and is really down and out. To me talk radio has to go back to the days of all kinds of views and all kinds of hosts or get rid of this right vs left pull. On the subject of KGO I worked in San Fran on KSAN. KGO was number one back then, but they didn't have just liberal talk show hosts. Once again their were all kinds like Lee Rogers and Jim Eastmen. Many fo them were not out and out right or left. Oh, and there is too much syndication. If I'm in Chicago or LA what do I care what someone from New York thinks. KFI is a great station for that very reason.
 
cm454 said:
ABQTom said:
Oh really? the 50,000 directonal watts of KGO n/t 810 in San Francisco is a "long since forgotten signal?" The 50,000 watts of WINZ 960 Miami have been forgotten? How about the 50,000 watts of KIRO/Seattle? Or, 50kW KPTK-AM Seattle? Oh...and Clear Channel in Portland raised their liberal station KPOJ to 25,000 watts. As for Jay Marvin, he has 50,000 watts day (less at night) covering much of Colorado and into New Mexico and Arizona on the skywave.
Better watch out, there are big time DX-ers on this board! :)

Last time I checked, KGO has been #1 in the market since 1977. So you've made my point. Thank you.

The point you clearly MISSED, was that the overwhelming majority of signals that failed while carrying that fare, were inferior and/or long since forgotten.

No, I did NOT miss your point. For ANY given format (liberal, conservative, lifestyle, sports) there will be big signals and smaller signals. The fact is, that Conservative Talkers dominate most Class A signals nationwide, because they got syndications clearances BEFORE the liberals did. When Air America, Ed Schultz, and Steph Miller came along, they were left to choose between class B,C,D signals. But remember, a class B can still go up to 50kW day and night, like KPTK 1090 Seattle and KTLK 1150 L.A., and a class D (like AM 760, Jay Marvin's station in Denver) can go up to 50kW day, but must drop to 1kW or less at night. Even at night, I've picked up KKZN 760 at night in Santa Fe, New Mexico. At sunrise in Feb 2007, I picked up Jay Marvin on AM 760 in Kingman, AZ, presumably they had already powered up to 50,000 watts.
 
Phil Boyce said:
Hannity is on 520 radio stations, second only to Rush in national listening. On that many stations, there are always stations that are up and down...but Sean's numbers are not going down nationally.

If he is not going down, that means that he must be going up. Would you like to share some of this information with us.

And as for beating KOA...you fail to point out that Sean is on KNUS, the Salem owned talker there, and is the highest rated show they have. It is unrealistic to think he is going to beat KOA, which is the market leading newstalker Clear Channel owns.

I love when the top exec at a leading syndication company, speaking on behalf of the second most successful talk host in the country has to complain about weak signals. You sound like a AAR apologist.

Oh...and learn to spell. It is Sean Hannity.

There you go again Phil. It seems that you can't post anything on this board without insulting someone.
 
Gnarlodious said:
This may be an utterly naive statement, but I believe the problem is that radio stations are OWNED by agenda-driven corporations. In that situation, it doesn't really matter what's profitable programming, because you have commercial support regardless of whether anyone listens. It is almost as if radio is now more valuable as propaganda space rather than profit space. Corporations pump money into non-profit assets all the time, because they fulfill another purpose for them. Once corporations grow to that size, they can squeeze out businesses that require a profit to exist. This is historically the monopoly stage of capitalism.

I can't speak for every company, because I haven't worked for them all. However, there is at least one that busts your "agenda-driven" idea. Cox Radio.

Founded by a 3 time former Democratic Ohio Governor (James M. Cox - who ran unsuccessfully for President with FDR as his running mate), a heavily Democrat family (one of his daughters flew to Dayton, Ohio in 2004 to campaign door-to-door for John Kerry), owner of quite a few newspapers whose editorial boards are notoriously left wing...

Yet, all of their news-talk stations are conservative talkers.

You see, if they were all about "agenda", why wouldn't Cox have been first on the air with liberal talk? But, in my opinion, with them, it's about making money. Which, thus far, most liberal talk stations haven't been able to show great strides at.

Jay Marvin makes some great points about some of the liberal talk shows. (And, Jay: I used to listen on WLS when I worked in Champaign-Urbana.) While I think there's hope for some of them, some of these hosts are, well, beltway pundits turned radio people. That's a problem. And radio is both a science and an art when done correctly.

Way back when (in the days of the Fairness Doctrine), I once worked for a talk station that had a mixture of conservative, liberal even libertarian hosts. They were "equal opportunity offenders". If there wasn't a day when we got complaints about one of the hosts, we checked to see if the transmitter was working properly. But, that having been said, it always seemed as though the liberal host, while popular, had, more often that the other hosts, times when he was ratings-challenged. Don't know why...that's just the way it was.

Lastly: a word about "weak signals". Signal is an issue, no doubt. But, what you have to recall is that the Rush Limbaugh program got its' start on a lot of these same signal-challenged radio stations. I worked for one of those that carried him in the early days, too. Rush clearly became the star of the station. When he moved his show to the big talker in town, his ratings doubled. (The effect of a better signal.) But, when the same station did liberal talk some years later, it got half the numbers Rush did. And the station didn't turn a profit.

I still contend, despite all this, there is a market for liberal talk. But, I continue to believe it's about entertainment, not ideology. If you can talk, not just politics, but issues of the day and make it entertaining, you will get an audience. But if all you do is harp day in and day out the same "Bush is the devil", (Or "Clinton is the devil"), and that's your whole act, you're doomed.
 
Jason Roberts said:
But, that having been said, it always seemed as though the liberal host, while popular, had, more often that the other hosts, times when he was ratings-challenged. Don't know why...that's just the way it was.

It might not be obvious, but did your gut tell you something different? A different feel to the conversation? Do you think liberal audiences want different things than conservative ones, or do you think the hosts were different performers?

What was the lineup/time slots?
 
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