A Plea to Omnia, Tieline, Broadcast Tools and Anyone Else Using Java

[cgould]

Considering the DSP-Xtra costs a small fraction of what I paid for my 11, I have to say I'm disappointed with my purchase, if for no other reason than the user interface.

1) If the software happens to run on your OS, great...if you are using an OS that is not supported by the software engineers, then you are screwed, so to speak. We want to avoid that.

2) Many of these processors do not change much as they are what they are. As you see with our Omnia.One processor (for example), we like to build in future flexibility, and feature / function enhancements over time to give more value to your purchase...even if you've owned the unit for 5 years. If we can still fit in an enhancement, then you can use it...many are free of charge. The problem in dedicated remote software is not only the issue I brought up in point #1, but also in making sure users are using the correct version of software with the appropriate hardware firmware, etc.

This vision may not be immediately noticed when a box is sitting on your desk, especially if you are unfamiliar with how we work, but that's what is going on. Believe me, this is not something we just pulled out of our booties with no thought behind it. A LOT of options were examined before we settled on the current choice.

Regards,

Cornelius Gould

 

[Chuck]

Thought the reason you purchased an audio processor, was for audio performance. The UI is a utility to the device.

Of course it is, but having a user interface that is easy to use goes a long way in getting the box do what would like it to do. If you have to fight the interface every time you want to update something, it takes a lot of the fun out of it. The good news is once you get a processor set, you don't usually have to access it very often (or at all). In the case of the 11 though, unless you just go with one of the pre-sets, it takes a lot of time and experimentation to get it to do all that it is capable of. You will be spending some time with the device.

Maybe our remote controls would be a better example. They too use Java. I look at them every day. All of the things others have posted about Java are true. It is a real pain to have Java decide to rearrange the deck chairs in your computer when you just want to see if the tower lights are on.

 

[PaulyBoy]

Of course it is, but having a user interface that is easy to use goes a long way in getting the box do what would like it to do. If you have to fight the interface every time you want to update something, it takes a lot of the fun out of it. The good news is once you get a processor set, you don't usually have to access it very often (or at all). In the case of the 11 though, unless you just go with one of the pre-sets, it takes a lot of time and experimentation to get it to do all that it is capable of. You will be spending some time with the device.

Maybe our remote controls would be a better example. They too use Java. I look at them every day. All of the things others have posted about Java are true. It is a real pain to have Java decide to rearrange the deck chairs in your computer when you just want to see if the tower lights are on.

Java was not always a headache, and long before these issues began, it was used successfully in many products. Just because there are challenges now, it's not fair to ping on companies that have invested time and resources in using java. I'm sure if there was a viable alternative, these guys would go for it.

Not much different than using many microsoft applications. Lots of annoyances there, but the world seems to find ways around those.

 

[Chuck]

Just because there are challenges now, it's not fair to ping on companies that have invested time and resources in using java. I'm sure if there was a viable alternative, these guys would go for it.

Sure it is fair. I paid a lot of money for these products. (My own money, incidentally - not someone else's.) I think I'm entitled to join in and express my opinion along with others who find these products awkward to use. It seems I'm not the only one who frustrated by Java. There are other alternatives which work well, and some manufacturer's choose to do it.

While I have learned to work around Java, it would be nice if future updates to these devices use some other interface. It is meant as constructive criticism. I've found that most successful manufacturers really do care what their customers think.

 

[PaulyBoy]

While I have learned to work around Java, it would be nice if future updates to these devices use some other interface. It is meant as constructive criticism. I've found that most successful manufacturers really do care what their customers think.

I'd bet that if an acceptable alternative to java were to become available, these companies would all use it. Not much different than millions of people who own computers and are saddled with microsoft OS. The same claim applies there too.

 

[The F Mister]

Considering the DSP-Xtra costs a small fraction of what I paid for my 11, I have to say I'm disappointed with my purchase, if for no other reason than the user interface.

1) If the software happens to run on your OS, great...if you are using an OS that is not supported by the software engineers, then you are screwed, so to speak. We want to avoid that.

Regards,

Cornelius Gould

That's exactly what going wrong with the DSPX remote (in my case the Xtreme). It ran fine on XP but on Vista and now on Windows 7 it crashes continuously. I tried lots of backward compatibility settings but nothing seems to solve the problem. Like you said you probably don't change settings very much in a production environment but I use it at home and like to play with it from time to time. So native software that goes on the pc is not much better either.

 

[stha]

Yes. I agree with all of the above.

As someone pointed out, there isn't much out there in the form of alternatives that are cross-platform.

When the Omnia.11 came out, there weren't as many issues with Java. These days we have a Java exploit every week (literally).

One of the advantages Java gives is to do away with an issue that was quite a pain with Omnia.6, and that was end users having trouble keeping the remote software versions matched with the correct versions of O6 front panel versions. Users who accidentally tried adjusting the processor with the wrong version of software ended up with all kinds of unpredictable results.

We are actively looking for any alternatives that can give the same rich user experience remotely as you have sitting in front of the box, and can operate across many platforms...Windows, Mac, Linux, etc. In the meantime, this Java issue is a pain for all of us...

Yes! That ASK tool bar install request is VERY annoying!!!!

In any case, we are looking into the situation. As soon as we have an answer that addresses our goals, we will be on it, for sure!

For those of you experiencing extreme slowdowns, what OS / PC / Browsers are you using? We have noticed that lately some of the MAC OS versions run Java extremely slow. Browsers running on Linux / Windows seem to not have this issue. I'm curious as to any other OS / Browser combinations that are less than optimal these days.

Thanks!

-Cornelius Gould
Omnia Audio

I agree. It was a nightmare since Java 7 (extreme slowdowns), I had to restore to Java 6.
Mac 10.8.1/Firefox
Omnia v1.2

 

[WNTIRadio]

Another update. Trying to get on to the Tielines yet again, just watching the Java loading "wheel" go round and round.

Tieline, please make a simple HTML page that can be ported to besides the Java page. All I need to do is check status and connections. Don't need fancy meters.

What good is a "universal platform" when it rarely works???

I'd rather have to download a new application each time the firmware changes. Which isn't that big of a deal. For example, the Omnia.9 has a separate HTML page on a different port that allows you to download the updated control application right from the box after you update it. And that's only if there's a change in the front panel.

I've got 4 Tielines out there. 2 of them will load after about 2 minutes. The other 2 won't load at all. Just gets stuck on "preparing to load the G5 Toolbox". All are on the latest firmware. All are on external IP addresses.

 

[Kmagrill]

What good is a "universal platform" when it rarely works???

A platform that is neither universal nor reliable may be problematic. Javascript could be one answer. It's a universal platform that is not really related to Java. While not as powerful and complex as Java, Javascript is supported by Windows, Apple, Unix/Linux and Android browsers. If carefully designed and tested, functions written is it seem to work on almost everything.

Despite the similar names, Java was invented by Sun while Javascript was invented by Netscape and later renamed Javascript.

There are other, less well supported, but more powerful browser scripting languages like J-Query which we use in a few places. J-query is also cross platform and we have used it successfully to interface with Windows, Apple and Android based browsers.

Use of any of the tools, including browser based scripting languages, depends upon if the necessary functionality is available to perform the desired tasks. If not, then it doesn't matter how cross-platform or reliable a tool is.

 

[rrsounds]

HTML5 with Javascript includes almost every interface-manipulation capability of both Java and Flash, and looks like a long-term, platform-independent solution to their security, resource-demand and speed limitations.

All of the latest browsers support most if not all of the features of HTML5.

Kind Regards,
David Reaves
Recklinghausen, Germany

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

HTML5 with Javascript includes almost every interface-manipulation capability of both Java and Flash, and looks like a long-term, platform-independent solution to their security, resource-demand and speed limitations.

All of the latest browsers support most if not all of the features of HTML5.

This thread has been two conversations in one. I feel a bit embarrassed about my earlier post asking about using Javascript withing web pages. But as I have followed the thread, I realize I am not the only one who is "mentally strained" in keeping Java and Javascript in totally separate parts of the brain since the are not that related.

Here is part of the dilemma we are facing here in The States. The bookstore industry is on hard times. I used to go to Borders or Barnes & Noble, find 9 to 15 books on the topic I wanted to explore, sit down in a chair and read through the index in each book, and narrow down to two or three books that might cover the topic I want to get up-to-speed on and buy the one that looks like the best fit. (Or throw up my hands and declare: "Maybe this isn't a topic I want to know about after all!"

I spent some time last week in my nearest big-box book store and came to the realization that maybe Javascript is something that can't be learned from a book! I am building a website to display my offerings and talent in the area of producing Voice Over and maybe some audio editing. I have come to realize that HTML 5 appears to be ripe now and so my new web site will be HTML 5 and I am converting a couple of other sites that I have to HTML 5. All the books I find in the bookstore of the library give a tiny, minicule bit of info on how to put flash into play, but so far you have to assume people using IE are going to need a different player, or they have to be willing to click and give IE permission to do something risky before it will run Flash. The books assume anyone building his/her own website is a rock bank wanting to put their latest tune on a website. The idea I might want a choice of 6 or 8 different audio cuts available and they I would like to know what they are going to look like on various browsers does not seem to be on the mind of any of the book authors.

So where does one go in search of good tutorial material to learn Javascript as used in web site applications? Or in learning how to control some device that carries audio to a transmitter site? Who has a favorite book they can recommend to me? Or a favorite web site with tutorials and/or forum discussion on javascript.

SIDE NOTE:

There are two stand-alone applications that are useful to those of us who are "civilian" web builders and maintainers. Microsoft has Expression Web 4 (which I use) and Adobe has DreamWeaver. I am trying to be sharing the maintenance of one web site with another person and I was explaining to them that they might need to acquire software of that nature so he asked: "How Much"... as in dollars. Microsoft has discontinued development of Wxpression Web. They assume everybody maintaining a web site should move up the Visual Studio or something like that. I'm sorry, at my age I am not about to move into that level of the stratosphere!

Visual Basic of a few years ago was something we civilians could. Today if you can't take off a couple of times a year and attend these five-day seminars, (travel and tuition probable in the $2,500 range each time?) I'm not sure you can keep up with Visual Studio. Yes, I can build simple web sites with a text editor and raw HTML... but if you want to have a dynamic template and CSS and other similar bells and whistles, You need something like EW4 or DW.

Last thought: Expression Web 4 is now available for FREE DOWNLOAD at Microsoft. They won't support it going forward. This one is a keeper for now.

 

[DudeFan]

For the web, almost everyone is moving to CMS systems like Wordpress and Joomla which do not require something like Dreamweaver or the like. To custom extend these, you do need php programming knowledge and some javascript knowledge. But to maintain them, you just need access to the backend.

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

Yes, I am kind of blown away with the power of WordPress. It allows people who are not real "gear heads" to operate a useful and impressive web site. But I can almost "smell" the WordPress when I come to the site for the first time.

One of the book writers that I find writing in ways that are helpful to me and my needs touts Expression Web4 as THE WAY to take a WordPress site and super-charge it. Even using the standard interface to WordPress is powerful.... IF you have a good "gear head" understanding of current web building tools and methods. Since I read his claim about using EW4 as a lever to squeeze even more out of WordPress, I haven't slowed down long enough to even refresh my relationship with WP and figure out how that would work.

But to even use WordPress (hosted on your own server... not the WP hosted version) it would be nice to walk into a book store and be able to browse through some books on WP and be able to select the one that is "written in YOUR style" and purchase it. When the book stores are gone, we are stuck with trying to select a book based on the smoke-and-mirrors merchandising by Amazon. ;D

 

[WNTIRadio]

What's a book?

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

What's a book?

It is a tangible, physical object which for centuries distinguised the difference between men and apes.

We have apparently moved into an era where we will have to identify some new methodology to make sure we are attending the correct and appropriate family reunions. :

 

[WNTIRadio]

That was sarcasm, by the way...

There are plenty of resources on the web about web programming, Wordpress etc. that are completely free.

The only thing I really still like hard copies of are manuals, but only to study at my leisure. When I'm out at stations, it's a lot easier to have my whole manual library in PDF form on the laptop, with them all arranged in folders by manufacturer and product. A searchable PDF has made my life so much easier!!

Back to Java for a minute, just did yet another update. Still can't get one of the Tielines to work, yet the other 3 do. I don't get it.

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

That was sarcasm, by the way...

I suspected it was. (In these forums we sometimes have to guess which is sarcasm and which is .... whatever.)

I make use of the Internet when possible. But when attacking a new topic, a new subject, we are at the mercy of Google and it's imitators. And you get 90% flotsam and 10% valuable material. And telling which is which is hard... particularly on a topic that is new to you.

Books on the other hand tend to be vetted and edited and proof-read and quality-controlled by a publisher who is investing in the project. And books usually cover multiple aspects of the topic. You can read chapters that cover what you already know and decide if this author knows what he/she is talking about so you know whether to trust the chapter that is on the topic that is new to you.

On the Internet, the tripe and the gold all look alike until you do your own vetting and editing and proof-reading and quality control. But it has become "the best we've got" so we learn to use the web in a way that works for us.

Where would I EVER find a book that teaches me what I have learned in these forums? ;D

When you figure out why 3 work with Java and one doesn't, come back and share with us. (Or, write a book if you like.)