A question about the audience

[TheBigA]

I was wondering if there were actually radio listeners who preferred such rigid predictability.

You'd be surprised.

It really goes back to the invention of Top 40 radio in 1951. People picking the same songs over and over on a jukebox.

Rigid predictability.

But a lot of human behavior is fairly predictable. People marry one mate, and most stay with them for a lifetime. They also want that mate to behave in a predictable way. Divert too much from the ways of the past, and you might be having a long discussion with your mate.

The Catholics just elected a new Pope. The press keeps asking what will the Pope do differently? Will he approve gay marriage or abortion? Of course not. The Pope is the conservator of convention. Rigid predictability. You can count on it.

Granted, serious music fans are not like everybody else. The question for radio programmers is: Do you want to attempt to please the very small minority of serious music fans...who will never be pleased no matter how you attempt to wow them with obscure songs and variety...or do you aim at the greater mass of people who just like a small predictable list of favorites? Radio is a medium aimed at the masses, so that's who you aim for. If you think rigid predictability is boring, you should work at one of these radio stations for a few years. Sit behind the console and introduce those same songs. Radio folks aren't doing this for themselves. They're doing it because it's proven that the audience wants it with rigid predictability.

 

[Robert Bass]

People marry one mate, and most stay with them for a lifetime.

Better check your facts. Last time I heard, 50% of marriages fail. That number could be higher by now.

R

 

[TheBigA]

People marry one mate, and most stay with them for a lifetime.

Better check your facts. Last time I heard, 50% of marriages fail. That number could be higher by now.

R

Read the context. If you put my analogy in context, it works. Most people like predictability in mates and music. Regardless of the divorce rate. One of the things that leads to divorce is the divergence of a mate from the predictable. And oldies stations that stick with the hits will be more successful than some marriages.

 

[deltas69]

Ditto Landtuna..Micky D's can play their spots all day..but on the rare occasion I want a prefab burger..I go for Wendy's or Hardee's..not because of the ads..but the product is better..very seldom drink Coke..prefer 7up..can't think of the last time i even saw a 7 up commercial..double ditto on the Bud..just not Christmas til I see the Bud-wagon..and Santa on the Norelco...give it a cheer with much better beer than Budlouser.. ...but again I ask..are people buying Bud, Big Macs etc because they are told to..or because they like it ?? I rather suspect Macdonalds sells because..most people are in a hurry and they know no matter what Macdonalds they pull into..it's gonna taste the same..no surprises..Now I will agree they do have the best fries in fast food.. I realize this thread has taken a wrong turn..sorry...

 

[TheBigA]

Ditto Landtuna..Micky D's can play their spots all day..but on the rare occasion I want a prefab burger..I go for Wendy's or Hardee's..not because of the ads..but the product is better..

And as I've said before, this is why ad agencies don't buy spots aiming at your demo, and why Oldies radio is in trouble.

McD is one of radio's biggest advertisers, but none of their money is spent on Oldies.

but again I ask..are people buying Bud, Big Macs etc because they are told to..or because they like it ??

You can't force people to buy products they don't like. Regardless of age. Go to a bar and watch what people order, and ask them why they buy Bud, and they'll tell you they like it. And they listen to Oldies stations that play the same songs because they like them.

 

[allenv]

Sure you want the greater mass of people but there is a large audience of what I call tweeners..not casual music fans and not super music geeks like me..they are not being served in my opinion..Only the casual music fans who who don't mind a 400 song or less list are bring catered to.I still say the biggest audience in in between and most are sick and tired of being forcefed the same menu of tunes over and over..

 

[TheBigA]

Only the casual music fans who who don't mind a 400 song or less list are bring catered to.I still say the biggest audience in in between and most are sick and tired of being forcefed the same menu of tunes over and over..

There is no oldies station using a 400 song or less library. And radio companies spent millions to find out what people like. The ones who listen don't feel "forcefed." They're very loyal.

 

[Robert Bass]

Only the casual music fans who who don't mind a 400 song or less list are bring catered to.I still say the biggest audience in in between and most are sick and tired of being forcefed the same menu of tunes over and over..

There is no oldies station using a 400 song or less library. And radio companies spent millions to find out what people like. The ones who listen don't feel "forcefed." They're very loyal.

You're out of touch with reality. The average classic hits station uses no more than about 300 songs.

R

 

[davideduardo]

You're out of touch with reality. The average classic hits station uses no more than about 300 songs.

Bbbbrrrrrzzzz. Sorry, but thanks for playing.

If you look at BDS or MediaBase you will find the typical successful Classic Hits station like WCBS-FM or KOOL has 700 to 800 active titles on any given week. If you add in the titles played in specialty shows, many such stations get over 1,000 different cuts detected in any multi-month period.

And it's the same for KRTH or WOGL or KLUV and the rest of 'em.

 

[Robert Bass]

You're out of touch with reality. The average classic hits station uses no more than about 300 songs.

Bbbbrrrrrzzzz. Sorry, but thanks for playing.

If you look at BDS or MediaBase you will find the typical successful Classic Hits station like WCBS-FM or KOOL has 700 to 800 active titles on any given week. If you add in the titles played in specialty shows, many such stations get over 1,000 different cuts detected in any multi-month period.

And it's the same for KRTH or WOGL or KLUV and the rest of 'em.

Well I'm shocked then...

R

 

[davideduardo]

Sure you want the greater mass of people but there is a large audience of what I call tweeners..not casual music fans and not super music geeks like me..they are not being served in my opinion..Only the casual music fans who who don't mind a 400 song or less list are bring catered to.I still say the biggest audience in in between and most are sick and tired of being forcefed the same menu of tunes over and over..

Stations that do music research typically find a couple of percent of the respondents are in the group that seems to score quite high any chart song from the particular era being tested. That group, however, is less than 5% of all respondents.

Keep in mind that stations recruit based on both station usage and affinity to the musical format. So if there were a lot of people who liked those lower charting songs or the burnt-out crispy critters, we would see it in research.

As it is, those couple of percent bring up the average for all songs, so they don't hurt. But when a song is universally negative to 95% or more of a test group, the station will not sacrifice 19 listeners for every one that they might please with some song that has not held up well over time.

 

[Robert Bass]

If you look at BDS or MediaBase you will find the typical successful Classic Hits station like WCBS-FM or KOOL has 700 to 800 active titles on any given week. If you add in the titles played in specialty shows, many such stations get over 1,000 different cuts detected in any multi-month period.

And it's the same for KRTH or WOGL or KLUV and the rest of 'em.

OK then explain this.. An article I read about KLUV a few years ago quoted the PD as saying they used 500 songs. That's less than the 700 or 800 you stated, is it not?

R

 

[davideduardo]

OK then explain this.. An article I read about KLUV a few years ago quoted the PD as saying they used 500 songs. That's less than the 700 or 800 you stated, is it not?

I have no access to data "a few years" old.

The fact is that today and in the last several years since I have been checking. somewhere above 700 songs is the norm for well researched major market classic hits stations.

 

[johndavis]

OK then explain this.. An article I read about KLUV a few years ago quoted the PD as saying they used 500 songs. That's less than the 700 or 800 you stated, is it not?

R

If you're giving an interview and you're not really in the mood to give up the secret sauce, you might generalize or round down.

Heck, I'm not even the PD of the stations I work for, but since I think they're doing something right, I'm not going to tell anyone exactly what we're doing. If you can't figure out why we're doing well, I'm not going to help you acquire a clue. Part of it is people, part of it is tactics, and I don't want the other guys to have either half of the equation.

 

[landtuna]

Thank you, Michael. I'll miss th give and take. It looks like David is just going to have to work harder, to get the word out. Regarding the advertising message: For your whole life, you've heard that Coca Cola or Coke is a soft drink, so when you're in the mood for a soft drink, you can't help but think of Coke. McDonald's is in a similar position with Hamburgers.

Well.....yes and no. An equal advertiser, at least in electronic media, is Pepsi - but I don't like it and no amount of advertising is going to make me like it. So when I think of a soda Pepsi isn't even on the menu. Likewise McD's for hamburgers since there are dozens of better ones being made on almost every street corner in my town. Likewise for Budweiser, who has some of the best commercials anywhere but.....I don't like Bud and would never order it.

If someone had never tasted Pepsi, McD's hamburgers or Budweiser and saw an ad it might convince them to give it a try. Or the ad might try to convince you that drinking Pepsi is to be "cool". Or McD's might try getting the kids to go because their "Happy Meals" are what kids want.

In the last few days I have seen hundreds of commercials for Chevrolet yet I would never, ever buy one. Perhaps if I hadn't yet bought a new car the ad might convince me to go take a look. That's why as people age they get more "resistant" to commercials because they already know what they like and what they don't.

Advertisers generally kick themselves in the butt trying to sell expensive, durable goods due to the disclaimers they put on the bottom of the ad (generally TV ads but also those rapid-fire verbal disclaimers on radio). The "attraction" is in big, easy-to-read print but down below is the "fine print" which generally limits the "attraction" (particularly when someone is advertising on price). Since the fine print cannot usually be read at all and is almost never on screen long enough I discount the entire ad no matter what it is trying to sell.

 

[michael hagerty]

Advertising is only one part of a successful marketing plan.

It tends to work best on the young, but if someone older is engaged with the various messages, it can work for them, too.

I turned 57 last week. I spent the better part of 40 years as a Pepsi drinker before cutting out colas all together for about a year. Recently, I decided to have one once in a while. And now, after a year away, Pepsi tastes like Pine-Sol to me. I poured a Coke instead and it was much better. So now, on the rare occasions that I'll have a soda, I'll have a Coke.

Advertising played no role (other than perhaps a cumulative subliminal one...if I'd been willing to go elsewhere, I could have had an RC or a Shasta...but my brain defaulted to "If not Pepsi, then Coke".), but I switched loyalties.

With things like cars (as an automotive journalist continually driving the new stuff, I have an unfair advantage) I know that the brands (Honda, Chevrolet, Volvo) themselves mean very little. It's really about the executives, engineers and stylists who work for them at any given moment. People. Who move on, retire or die.

In 1983, Honda built fun, light, high quality fuel-efficient small cars. Chevy was pretty much building crap and Volvo was the safest car in the world.

Today, with the exception of the new Accord, Honda has largely lost the plot, building cars no better and no worse than half a dozen others, Chevy's Cruze and Malibu are fine cars and word is the new Impala and SS will be remarkable too (to say nothing of the new Corvette, which is light years ahead of the lounge-lizard '83) and Volvo...well, Volvo's okay, but no more safe than probably a dozen other brands.

Time marches on and stuff changes. Sony TV? In 1983, sure, unless you needed to save $100 and bought an RCA ColorTrak. Today, Samsung (which, if Apple isn't careful, could put that brand in jeopardy too).

About the only 1983 brand I can think of that's as strong today would be Duracell.

Allowing your loyalties to calcify beyond 10 years or so doesn't serve your own interests especially well. It's why grandma was lost when Studebaker went out of business, Montgomery Wards folded and they stopped making Postum.

 

[landtuna]

Advertising is only one part of a successful marketing plan.

Marketing actually begins at the product definition/design stage. It is essential to properly identify the intended end customer long before the clay mold (in the case of autos) is done. Movies routinely do test viewings long before theatrical release to fine tune their products.

It tends to work best on the young, but if someone older is engaged with the various messages, it can work for them, too.

'Engaged' meaning "in the market"? Perhaps. But I have learned it is much better to do your own research than relying upon pure advertising. Matter of fact, the more a product is advertised the less I am likely to buy it (unless it is already on my 'favs' list). The reason is simple: generally, products that are not already selling well have to be heavily advertised (and prices reduced etc.) to give them a boost. Generally, I don't want a product that doesn't sell well. There is likely something wrong with it.

I turned 57 last week.

Happy belated birthday you old coot! ;D

I spent the better part of 40 years as a Pepsi drinker before cutting out colas all together for about a year. Recently, I decided to have one once in a while. And now, after a year away, Pepsi tastes like Pine-Sol to me. I poured a Coke instead and it was much better. So now, on the rare occasions that I'll have a soda, I'll have a Coke.

Something similar happened to me with Coors. Like my father I drank Coors as my favorite beer for years before developing a taste for micro brews and certain Mexican beers. As for soft drinks, my all time favorite as a kid was White Rock Black Cherry but it isn't available in AZ now so I revert to my next best Dr. Pepper. Ads have nothing to do with any of these choices. Taste (and availability) only.

With things like cars (as an automotive journalist continually driving the new stuff, I have an unfair advantage) I know that the brands (Honda, Chevrolet, Volvo) themselves mean very little. It's really about the executives, engineers and stylists who work for them at any given moment. People. Who move on, retire or die.

I would disagree with your "mean very little" comment because there are certain vehicles which are junk today and have always been junkish. While some brands have improved greatly over the years (hello GM) they are still light years behind other brands in certain areas. Over the years I have owned two Corvettes - both junk, one El Camino - constant headaches, one Blazer - OK but nasty MPG and lousy build quality. You can see why GM won't get another purchase from me.

I have owned literally dozens of Honda motorcycles and ATV's but I won't buy a car from Honda. Just don't like them. The fact that they last forever means nothing to me if I hate it every time I get in the damn thing.

Time marches on and stuff changes. Sony TV? In 1983, sure, unless you needed to save $100 and bought an RCA ColorTrak. Today, Samsung (which, if Apple isn't careful, could put that brand in jeopardy too).

I once bought a top of the line RCA console color TV and every year, like clockwork, I had to replace a board in it for $100. It was a beautiful piece of furniture and great when it worked but maintenance costs were too high.

I won't buy anything Apple because I detest proprietary products and their always-too-high prices. You would think Apple would learn their lesson after the Apple vs IBM PC debacle but apparently not.

About the only 1983 brand I can think of that's as strong today would be Duracell.

I'm no marketing genius but given some time I could probably come up a ton of brands which are just as strong today as in 1983. IBM comes to mind immediately.

Allowing your loyalties to calcify beyond 10 years or so doesn't serve your own interests especially well. It's why grandma was lost when Studebaker went out of business...

Ever since I was a kid I've wanted a '53 Studebaker Commander. Had plenty of other cars in the meantime but never my Stude.

 

[ixnay]

Are there really people out there in the radio audience who, upon hearing the announcer say "We've got some Van Morrison for you right after this", breathe a sigh of relief, secure in the knowledge that they are going to hear "Brown-eyed Girl" and are in no danger of being exposed to "Domino", "Moondance", or "Jackie Wilson Said"?

or "Wild Night"?

Or Them's "Gloria"...

ixnay

 

[ixnay]

I can honestly say..I have never bought anything that was pitched over the air either on radio or tv. If I want a fish sandwich..I just go get one..If I want to buy a car (and I have owned more than 200 in my life)..I know what I'm looking for,and go find it..Is the general public so brain dead that commercials influence them to such a large degree that they blindly go spend their money in that way ?? ... I'd really like to know..

Well, last Friday I bought a 1.25L Coke Zero at a Walgreens in celebration of NCAA March Madness, of which Coke Zero is a sponsor. FWIW

Not the same as purchasing, but back when NBC aired the parade from Miami every NYE, I'd reach into the fridge, grab a navel orange, rinse it, peel it, and eat it. Same when watching the Peacock's 'cast of a certain bowl game from Miami the following evening.

ixnay

 

[cd637299]

^ Not sure if this is similar...but

When I was 17, the upstart Denver Broncos (w/Craig Morton) faced the Dallas Cowboys in---lessee---Super Bowl---XIII?

In honor of the "Orange Crush" defense, I was hoping to find Orange Crush to drink, but IIRC it wasn't available down here (south FL) yet. I may have bought an orange soda rip-off. I can't stand orange soda now.

cd