A Suggestion to the Dance Music fanatics...

[TonySantiago]

Re: A Suggestion to the Dance Music FANS!

It's also kinda curious to how you havent replied to the questions I asked you. And you tell me where I can find a dance station broadcasting from a mental instituion. Now back to what I wanted to say earlier, but was too focused on the past post I did yesterday......

That is the "modus operandi" of MarcR. Which is why I didn't even bother responding d21 because once you give a solid answer, he never replies back to it. He still wants to go on an attack on people but when confronted with facts that hold solid, nothing! At least we all know where Jimi Lalumia stands with this! We've always accepted him with his opinions, love 'em or hate 'em, add to the fact that Party 105 did play "Dance Floor" a couple of years ago. Mental institution? I'm trying to think which station but I think deep down, they all are and staff will admit it!

I don't mind if someone "attacks" me with a question. There are times that I have been wrong and I will be the first person to admit on that. But when you start attacking people as "fanatics" or other derogatory "rants" on folks, that's where the line is crossed and heck, I'm fighting back! But sometimes fights are better won by just backing away since a person may have their own "agenda" and despite what you or anyone else says, they're still "close minded" to their own facts and do not have the decency to respect other opinions, right or wrong.

Yes, so Pulse as a .8, understood. Yet the station continually grows each book. There are STILL people out there that don't know a Pulse 87 exists! But seriously, a .8 for a station that did this with NO advertising, a bare bottom position on the dial, and a 3,000 watt signal (so I've found out) is pretty dang good! I will always stand by my statement that if a Pulse was above 92 with the strong signal, it would be in the TOP 5 in the market. No doubt.

Is that fanaticism talking? No. It would be a fact once proven. Oh and 'KTU, when it had more current dance, really didn't prove that theory because they didn't do ENOUGH for currents. It was frustrating to hear a current track, only to be followed by the Bee Gees, Donna Summer or Gloria Gaynor. That was my argument back then. It was more 30% currents/70% older. Whereas Pulse (and for those of us "fanatics", have you noticed a RAISE in current dance in the format?) is more on a 80% currents / 20% older (the older because classic freestyle from the 80's and early 90's - STILL very popular here amongst us "fanatics") :

And St. Louis? Maybe a rhythmic A/C but no dance station as we'd brand it.

 

[davideduardo]

Re: A Suggestion to the Dance Music FANS!

Yes, so Pulse as a .8, understood. Yet the station continually grows each book.

It's not growing. Stations near the bottom wobble a lot, and the AQH persons range has been (with statistical smoothing) 8000 to 12000 persons for every week that it has been in the ratings. And the rating has been a 0.1 with no variation. Flat, in other words.

I will always stand by my statement that if a Pulse was above 92 with the strong signal, it would be in the TOP 5 in the market. No doubt.

It might get to a 1.5. Stations used by a fanatical core, such as classical, get usage way beyond where the signal would seem to indiacte they shuldn't... so much of the listener base will not expand.

 

[oaktree]

Here's the point ... and like it or not, David's not only right ... he's absolutely right. Tony has a loving, dedicated passion for dance, a does many of the supporting "fan base" here. But ... there are some realities to keep in mind.

Growth ... is relative, especially when you have less than 1% of the listening audience that potentially listens to your station exclusively. Those P1's, as we call them, are not the 750,000 "estimated" cume. The people who really listen to Pulse 87 a lot are, in sad actuality, as a .8 shows, are really far far less.

Secondly, we need to stop mixing apples and oranges, here. Yes, you can blame consultants, weak signals, a bad antenna, a blue roof on the building, management, bad equipment, etc. etc. etc. There is, however, only one real basis of fact:

The station isn't popular enough to warrant advertisers looking to make an impression on millions of people, to buy the little station that could because their "return on investment (ROI)" is slim. They tell the ad agency what demo they want and they pay to get a lot of that demo ... not a piece of it or the most loyal of a station with a .8 share and a rating of not much higher. Stations with a 2 share, as you know, have the same difficulty. Here, we're talking about a station that is, for all intents and purposes, low power TV ... on a frequency that a great number of people can't even tune in if they wanted to. The fact that they cant isn't Pulse's fault. It just isn't to be in the consumer marketplace. Just like HD radio ... you may have it, but if only a few do, it doesn't mean it's worth the time, investment or promotion to do it. And so far, that's way been proven not only in New York, but across the country.

The fact is this: It's a business ... not a dream. Businesses are created to do one thing: Make money. Radio does this by not "serving the public." They do it by selling advertising that gets results for sponsors paying money to get the ears of a LOT of people on a regular, frequent basis who will respond to their messages. Radio stations do this by running mass appeal formats on signals that have the ability to reach as many people in homes, apartments, offices, cars, trucks, cabs, busses, etc. as possible.

Not the fewest. Niche's work in certain forms. It didn't work with smooth jazz, it didn't with with "rock" on RXP and it's not growing with dance on Pulse. It's about the Benjamins, not about likes, dislikes or a few thousand loyal listenrs. It has to be a few hundred verifiable true core listeners, not estimates of five minutes at a time listeners.

Or ... radio fans on a message board.

There has been some incredible love shown here for Pulse. Unfortunately, there has been some incredible reality about business here, too, from David and others that really tells the tale ... outside of those who "think" they know what it's like to run or manage a radio station ... who's sole function is to do one thing: Make money. Money to pay bills, pay people, pay for the power, pay for the promotions, pay to exist. Without it ... you have no radio station. With the knowledge of how to do it, you have a bunch of people who really don't know how to do it who end up saying things that won't matter because it's just not true.

Just because banks exist, doesn't mean you can whip out the ATM card and pay for a radio station. They don't "lend" money out of want, they lend money out of a chance to make money on that investment. Without a core of being able to pay that debt, you have no credit and that's why Pulse doesn't have any. It's chance of paying back a debt is null and void. Dreaming doesn't pay the bills.

So, enjoy Pulse while you can. The time has come to stop speculating on why or how it can work. The point is, it isn't as much as many would like to see it work. There's a lot of factors involved. Unfortunately, success isn't one of them. So, again, just enjoy it while you can and be thankful that someone was gutsy enough to make it happen, even when it didn't have the capital to do it.

And don't attack the messenger. David didn't invent the rules. He just lived them with a lot of investment and undertaking -- as several of us have. Radio's not an easy business. But it is, however, still ... a business.

 

[neo11]

Forget about attacking the messenger, how about attacking an entire format, as is done with astonishing consistency on this board?

Everyone knows Mega Media is in terrible financial shape (though how much of that has to do with Pulse versus its other business ventures rarely gets mentioned). Everyone talks about Pulse's 0.8 as if it's broadcasting on equal footing from the Empire State Building with all the "big" and "legitimate" stations, or argues that the 0.8 is really an 0.1. If that's the case, then I'd love to see the numbers for RXP and Now. Are they "really" at, say, 0.5? Or are they still where they are and only Pulse somehow and magically goes from an 0.8 to an 0.1?

Everyone brushes off the 750,000 cume as if it's a statistical anomaly, or that those 750,000 aren't all "P1's" (as if the statistical anomalies only apply to Pulse and as if the other stations' cumes consist largely of P1's, unlike Pulse's).

Very few people seem willing to lay the same level of criticism, however, to other formats and stations that are failing. To entire companies, even, that are failing. I mean, Citadel's stock was valued at three cents a few days ago. Are we supposed to feel better because PLJ still bills well? What about the parent company?

How about a station like WCAA, which can't break out of the 2's, despite having the most marquee morning man in Spanish-language radio? A bad signal is blamed for their troubles, but somehow, when that is used as one explanation for Pulse not getting higher than an 0.8, it's seen as merely an "excuse."

What about a station like WRXP, which yes, has seen its share of criticism on this board, but never with the same outright venom that Pulse has faced. That station has been on the air for almost two full years with a full-powered signal and still hasn't come close to a 2 share, or success within its target demos.

How about 92.3 Now, which after all these months on the air, still can't even get a morning show on the air, or jocks that don't sound like they just came from the minor leagues? They're barely at a 1.5 with a full-powered signal and even some promotion. Yet, while there is some criticism thrown their way on these boards, again it's lacking the punch and venom that Pulse has faced.

The "haters" are the self-proclaimed realists on this board, and some do make very valid points about Pulse and Mega Media. But then there are the others, the ones who talk about mental institutions or others who only seem to appear on this board to kick Pulse when it's down. I won't mention names, we all know who they are. How can I take these "realists" seriously if they have nothing else to contribute to the conversation other than their hate, disguised as "realism"? This doesn't apply to everyone who isn't...enthusiastic about Pulse, but certainly to many.

We're told that radio is a business and as such the "failures" of the dance format amount to..."it's only business." But the same people don't admit that radio as it stands today is a dying business. At best, we'll here the usual corporate-speak about how the total number of listeners is up, blah blah blah, but the deeper reality is ignored. Where's the venom from these same "haters" for the failures of Citadel, for the failures of so many "legitimate" stations and companies?

Some of the Pulse backers here are accused of being "fanatics" and are accused of seeing things in a one-sided and biased way, but until many of the detractors can bring something to the table other than criticism and venom towards one particular station, they're just as "fanatic" and biased as the most fervent dance fans. And until then, the "hater" label fits them perfectly.

Yes, radio is a business. A business that is dying...and the death isn't limited to a small station facing long odds like Pulse.

 

[JustinCase]

Over the last couple months, there has been plenty of discussion about the failures of NOW and RXP and what will happen with them; right now, everyone's discussing Pulse, because well... THEY BEGGED THE PUBLIC FOR MONEY... Thats kind of a big deal and has dominated the topics..

As for NOW, it is a mess and will be a mess and minor in the ratings because it's a mess going up against the GOLD STANDARD of CHR's Z100... and RXP doesn't know what it should be and the ratings show that confusion.

 

[neo11]

Over the last couple months, there has been plenty of discussion about the failures of NOW and RXP and what will happen with them; right now, everyone's discussing Pulse, because well... THEY BEGGED THE PUBLIC FOR MONEY... Thats kind of a big deal and has dominated the topics..

As for NOW, it is a mess and will be a mess and minor in the ratings because it's a mess going up against the GOLD STANDARD of CHR's Z100... and RXP doesn't know what it should be and the ratings show that confusion.

Discussion about the failures of NOW and RXP, yes. I've been a part of those discussions. Venom, however? Not quite. The unbridled hate that some people seem to exhibit towards Pulse is unmatched. It's the truth, just as it's the truth that the discussion (hatefest) about Pulse has gone far beyond their begging for money. Nor did it begin when they began their radiothon.

Your comments about Now and RXP are absolutely correct, but they also reflect more or less the style of criticism that has been levied against those stations...in other words, criticism lacking any of the "hate" that many of the critics of Pulse have demonstrated for months now.

 

[d21ofnj]

First, do you know for certain a consultant was even involved? It looks like the station had a bad power ratio, and that indicates that the format was a tough sell. Moving to a CHR generally gets a lot more 18-34 women, which is very salable.

It's just funny that all of a sudden these stations are flipping to a certain format that you can hear everywhere else. And the station was actually simulcasting on 105.5 in Cape May County, therefore, more revenue and ratings for people in the Wildwood/Ocean City area.

That is a very recent change. Do we know whether that lower share may be more salable than the previous alternative format?

Have you ever sampled G-Rock throughout the years when it first came on in 2000? It took 7.5 years for somebody to finally get that station right on track. Constant format tweaks will turn people away. You also gotta look at how that company treated G-Rock. They barely advertised their simulcast on 106.5, hardly done any effort with billboard ads, as compared to Pulse which started with "word of mouth" on a limited signal and got HALF of what G-Rock got and you can hear them from Newark to Atlantic City. If they wanted a CHR so bad, why not leave B98.5 the way it was? No Z100, no Q102, it would be the SOLE CHR of The Jersey Shore.

An HD 2 channel does not really "count" unless it has ratings. Most companies are putting the equivalent of a WinAMp playlist on a computer for HD2 channels, and not one makes the book, anywhere.

The WCP* trimulcast has no night listening on one frequency, and less than 1000 persons on each of the others... they rank 45th or something like that. By contrast, the 93.5 and 103.1 class A simulcast has about 12 times the listeners.

Either way, the format is STILL there, correct?

Actually, that is not true at all. Radio usage has been slowly declining over a 20-year period as things like more cable and satellite TV offerings, DVDs, game consoles, etc. have intruded on available time... it's not just the internet and the iPod. And radio still reaches about 95% of all Americans each week, even though the amount of time has declined.

Interstingly, radio revenues in 2009 are off less than Micorsoft's revenues (in percentage, of course) yet there is a tendency to identify listener dissatisfaction as radio's issue rather than, in this moment, the recession and ad cutbacks.

Do we have a choice? Some people can't afford subscriptions to Sirius/XM and Internet radio is not yet fully compact in car radios. Yes, Internet radio is streamable on mobile phones via 3G and 4G, but wi-fi isn't completely out there in full force.

I presume you refer to the detritus of dance formats that litters the historical records of radio. Those formats disappeared because they could not sustain the necessary levels of income needed by each, as a business. There is no pollitics involved in reading a P&L statement, and the owners of the stations you mention in several cases had to sell or lost their stations because they could not get enough income to pay for them.

The thing is this, the general public looks at dance as just a mesh of boom boom boom, throwing glowsticks all over the place, take some "E", and constantly get drunk and promote sex too much. Look at the Dr. Pepper commercial feat. Dr. Dre, as the DJ was spinning a deep sound you hear at underground raves mostly, and automatically when people hear the term "dance music", they just only view it as that point in terms of what I stated. The business is basically singling out the format, and is having thoughts of the dance format in the wrong way. These guys are looking at it as to "why should I spend money on stuff that promotes drugs, sex, and a bad influence to the public? or "All " This is why dance wsn't given a chance, the majority of the general public is looking at the dance format in the wrong way. There are MANY different types of dance music, not just that one typical stereotype that everyone is stuck on. You don't see me singling out hip-hop because they talk about how much money they have, how many guns and cars they own, or how many women they got. You don't see me singling out Rock as people who are druggies, or have too many tattoos and piercings on their body. This stereotype towards dance is the main factor that this format has come and gone and why advertisers and consumers think that it will be a waste to their pocket, but not thinking "out of the box" as Tony would put it. If the general public can look as dance at a different angle, and not focus on the stereotype because of one specific format of dance gave a "bad vibe" to the dance format in general, than maybe you will see these advertisers and investors give it a shot.

 

[d21ofnj]

Over the last couple months, there has been plenty of discussion about the failures of NOW and RXP and what will happen with them; right now, everyone's discussing Pulse, because well... THEY BEGGED THE PUBLIC FOR MONEY... Thats kind of a big deal and has dominated the topics..

As for NOW, it is a mess and will be a mess and minor in the ratings because it's a mess going up against the GOLD STANDARD of CHR's Z100... and RXP doesn't know what it should be and the ratings show that confusion.

The difference between Pulse and Now and Z, is Now and Z are owned by MULTI-MILLION DOLLAR COMPANIES that get their money all over the country.

It is sad for a company to beg for money, but what else does Mega Media own? If anything, doesn't it also show how much passion there is for a dance format in NYC? I'm sure if Z100 were to go off the air because ClearChannel was broke and begged their listeners to donate, listeners will do the same for Z. However, it would be more suspicious on CC than on Mega Media since again ClearChannel is a NATIONAL broadcasting company that gets 10X the millions than a small main street company like Mega Media.

 

[d21ofnj]

Re: A Suggestion to the Dance Music FANS!

Mental institution? I'm trying to think which station but I think deep down, they all are and staff will admit it!

Maybe he thought Out 97 was broadcasting from the health campus in Binghamton, because that was the spot where it came in crystal clear.

 

[davideduardo]

Everyone talks about Pulse's 0.8 as if it's broadcasting on equal footing from the Empire State Building with all the "big" and "legitimate" stations, or argues that the 0.8 is really an 0.1.

As Oaktree obliquely mentioned, the problem with discussing many aspects of radio with those who do not run or manage radio stations is that facts are taken out of context and bandied about without the knowledge of their meaning and the context in which they should be used.

Rating is the percentage of the universe... which means "everyone" who are listening on average to a station, including those who do not have the radio on.

Share is the percentage only of those people who are listening to radio. So, a share of 0.8 is the same as a rating of 0.1 because the metric is a different scale... radio listeners on one side, and all persons on the other.

In fact, rating, not share, is the metric used by advertisers who buy by the ratings to evaluate individual stations.

If that's the case, then I'd love to see the numbers for RXP and Now. Are they "really" at, say, 0.5? Or are they still where they are and only Pulse somehow and magically goes from an 0.8 to an 0.1?

Of course, this statement makes no sense because you don't know the difference in the terms. When you use audience data to make a point, it would be appropriate to understand the terms you are using. On the www.arbitron.com page, in the radio station section, there is a downloadable booklet that defines the terms and gives a good deal of other information that will make this data understandable.

Everyone brushes off the 750,000 cume as if it's a statistical anomaly, or that those 750,000 aren't all "P1's" (as if the statistical anomalies only apply to Pulse and as if the other stations' cumes consist largely of P1's, unlike Pulse's).

Pulse's P1s are about 13% of the total cume. WPLJ's P1's are about 20% of the cume. WLTW's is around 17%. WPLJ is also around 18% P1 composition. So Pulse has a low percentage of P1s, indicating a larger amount of secondary listening.

This is supported by the relatively low TSL of Pulse among its listeners... just over 2 hours a week, while stations like WCBS do two full quarter hours more. That level of TSL is typical, though, of stations with a lot of current music; other stations with that sort of TSL succeed by achieving large cumes, something Pulse can not do.

Very few people seem willing to lay the same level of criticism, however, to other formats and stations that are failing. To entire companies, even, that are failing. I mean, Citadel's stock was valued at three cents a few days ago. Are we supposed to feel better because PLJ still bills well? What about the parent company?

Citadel's problem is debt. They have well performing stations, but in this economy the debt from their acquisition can't be paid by the profits of these stations. The parent company of WPLJ or KGO is fine operationally, given the economy. It's the debt that has it in peril. And, thus, nothing like the problems of Pulse, which include a crummy facility, a format that is widely considered to be unappealing to advertisers and to most listeners, and very low ratings.

How about a station like WCAA, which can't break out of the 2's, despite having the most marquee morning man in Spanish-language radio? A bad signal is blamed for their troubles, but somehow, when that is used as one explanation for Pulse not getting higher than an 0.8, it's seen as merely an "excuse."

WCAA has around a 9 share among Spanish dominant Hispanics. Althought it has about 1/5 the power of Pulse, WCAA performs very well among the only group that could use it. Measuring a Spanish langauge station strictly against the total market, most of which can not use it, is pushing things rather far.

We're told that radio is a business and as such the "failures" of the dance format amount to..."it's only business." But the same people don't admit that radio as it stands today is a dying business. At best, we'll here the usual corporate-speak about how the total number of listeners is up, blah blah blah, but the deeper reality is ignored.

And what reality is that? If radio is moribund, why have the decereases in listening levels been going on for twenty years, while, save the recession, revenues were growing? Sure, this is not a growth industry, but as radio integrates with aspects of new media, it has a long life ahead of it. An analog TV audio facility on a band that has to go all digital is another story.

Yes, radio is a business. A business that is dying...and the death isn't limited to a small station facing long odds like Pulse.

What most impresses me is that your case is made with no facts whatsoever except for a couple of misinterpreted ratings statistics.

Some companies see a good future in radio... some are even buying stations that actually cover something.

 

[davideduardo]

Over the last couple months, there has been plenty of discussion about the failures of NOW and RXP and what will happen with them; right now, everyone's discussing Pulse, because well... THEY BEGGED THE PUBLIC FOR MONEY... Thats kind of a big deal and has dominated the topics..

The donation request thing is the lightning rod for the discussion, as you point out. Thanks for returning the real focus to this discussion.

We all know some formats fail... P&G, widely regarded as about the best consumer products marketer there is, has a 50% failure rate on new products, despite hundreds of millions of dollars spent on research and testing. And that rate is low for the package goods industries, where 70% and above failure rates are more common.

Now and RXP may be failures. From my point of view: So what? Nothing ventured, nothing gained, yadda, yadda, yadda.

But CBS is not out there panhandling for money in exchange for T-shirts. Again, Justin, you focused this nicely on what got the discussion started.

 

[neo11]

As Oaktree obliquely mentioned, the problem with discussing many aspects of radio with those who do not run or manage radio stations is that facts are taken out of context and bandied about without the knowledge of their meaning and the context in which they should be used.

Rating is the percentage of the universe... which means "everyone" who are listening on average to a station, including those who do not have the radio on.

Share is the percentage only of those people who are listening to radio. So, a share of 0.8 is the same as a rating of 0.1 because the metric is a different scale... radio listeners on one side, and all persons on the other.

In fact, rating, not share, is the metric used by advertisers who buy by the ratings to evaluate individual stations.

Actually, I do understand the difference, except that a) you did not specify the difference by name in your post, and b) it follows that every station's actual rating will be lower than its share. However, your post singled out Pulse.

Of course, this statement makes no sense because you don't know the difference in the terms. When you use audience data to make a point, it would be appropriate to understand the terms you are using. On the www.arbitron.com page, in the radio station section, there is a downloadable booklet that defines the terms and gives a good deal of other information that will make this data understandable.

An arrogant assumption. I do know the difference in terms.

Pulse's P1s are about 13% of the total cume. WPLJ's P1's are about 20% of the cume. WLTW's is around 17%. WPLJ is also around 18% P1 composition. So Pulse has a low percentage of P1s, indicating a larger amount of secondary listening.

And couldn't that, in part at least, be explained by the fact that Pulse's weaker signal means that many listeners who live on its fringes can't receive it well, and thus leave it as a P2 or P3 and turn to it when they're in the listening area? Especially when compared to those full-powered ESB signals. Seems conceivable to me.

This is supported by the relatively low TSL of Pulse among its listeners... just over 2 hours a week, while stations like WCBS do two full quarter hours more. That level of TSL is typical, though, of stations with a lot of current music; other stations with that sort of TSL succeed by achieving large cumes, something Pulse can not do.

That's not surprising though, as such formats tend to have a low TSL. You state this yourself. And you are correct that Pulse cannot achieve a large cume in the market as a whole, but how about superserving the five boroughs, where its usable signal actually is? Yes, I know the answer...ad agencies won't care, but perhaps they would if the format were on a larger signal (notice I'm not making guarantees, but it is a possibility). And local advertisers would care, if their message is reaching the type of person they want to reach. I made an analogy on a previous thread comparing Pulse to WLIR, another station that never was a huge ratings success but carved a successful niche for itself with a very loyal audience, which advertisers (primarily local) recognized.

Citadel's problem is debt. They have well performing stations, but in this economy the debt from their acquisition can't be paid by the profits of these stations. The parent company of WPLJ or KGO is fine operationally, given the economy. It's the debt that has it in peril. And, thus, nothing like the problems of Pulse, which include a crummy facility, a format that is widely considered to be unappealing to advertisers and to most listeners, and very low ratings.

Citadel may have successful stations, but how did it accumulate some of those successful stations, like PLJ? By purchasing them. And how did that debt pile on? Could it be those expensive stations they purchased, whether successful or not? Food for thought.

Pulse's problems are well documented, but I'd hardly call 0.8 "very low ratings" considering all of the shortcomings and limitations the facility has, as you even pointed out.

WCAA has around a 9 share among Spanish dominant Hispanics. Althought it has about 1/5 the power of Pulse, WCAA performs very well among the only group that could use it. Measuring a Spanish langauge station strictly against the total market, most of which can not use it, is pushing things rather far.

1/5th the power but from from twice the height, atop the Empire State Building, on a frequency that every radio can tune to and which has been home to Spanish-language formats for a decade, and with a high-profile morning host.

You're citing the statistics that are most favorable to WCAA, but by that same logic, we can apply those same sorts of statistics and criteria to Pulse. And just as most of the market can't use WCAA due to language or signal considerations, most of the market can't use Pulse either, due to signal and other technical considerations.

The language barrier and the large group of listeners who could not "use" those stations didn't seem to stop stations like Mega and Amor shooting to the top 5 in the ratings under the diary system, did it?

And what reality is that? If radio is moribund, why have the decereases in listening levels been going on for twenty years, while, save the recession, revenues were growing? Sure, this is not a growth industry, but as radio integrates with aspects of new media, it has a long life ahead of it. An analog TV audio facility on a band that has to go all digital is another story.

For the same reason that so many other things in the economy were "growing" until recently...a big bubble that finally burst?

I can't see much growth in an industry that is increasingly becoming an automated jukebox with a fraction of the songs on anyone's mp3 player (yes, I know all about music testing, playing the songs that test the highest, no need to recap that lecture again....but radio is, and should be, more than just the songs that "test" well.)

Some companies see a good future in radio... some are even buying stations that actually cover something.

Not to use an overused cliche, but there's a sucker born every minute. And the fact that there are still some companies "buying stations that actually cover something" doesn't tell me anything, especially with so many companies in the radio industry in perilous financial shape, with declining levels of listening, and with piss-poor management and decision-making. The history of business failures is littered with the corpses of companies that saw a "good future" in something that ultimately failed.

I'm sure that ~$60 million "investment" in the 92.7 WLIR facility only to gain an extra few tenths of a share with the simulcast of 105.9, followed by an 0.6-0.7 for La Que Buena, is a perfectly sound one, right? Funny how it's not seen as "only" an 0.6.

 

[neo11]

The donation request thing is the lightning rod for the discussion, as you point out. Thanks for returning the real focus to this discussion.

Actually, no. The criticism of Pulse and the rumors of its imminent demise began long before the fund drive, so yes, that is part of the focus of this discussion.

We all know some formats fail... P&G, widely regarded as about the best consumer products marketer there is, has a 50% failure rate on new products, despite hundreds of millions of dollars spent on research and testing. And that rate is low for the package goods industries, where 70% and above failure rates are more common.

Very true. And many of those companies "buying stations that actually cover something" may and likely will fail as well. And, this may come as a shock, but many of those failures can be attributed to bad decision-making, bad programming and bad investments that have increased their debt load significantly.

Now and RXP may be failures. From my point of view: So what? Nothing ventured, nothing gained, yadda, yadda, yadda.

That's easy to say. It's just as easy to say "so what if Pulse is a failure?" But the criticism has gone far beyond a simple shrug of the shoulders. Failure or not, Mega Media deserves some credit for finding a way to get another station on the dial in New York City and for trying to program a real format on its station, instead of brokering out the time. As you said, nothing ventured, nothing gained.

But CBS is not out there panhandling for money in exchange for T-shirts. Again, Justin, you focused this nicely on what got the discussion started.

Again, the criticism of Pulse and Mega Media did not begin when Pulse began panhandling for money. This just serves to deflect attention from the reality that the station has been criticized harshly from before day 1.

 

[d21ofnj]

I'm sure that ~$60 million "investment" in the 92.7 WLIR facility only to gain an extra few tenths of a share with the simulcast of 105.9, followed by an 0.6-0.7 for La Que Buena, is a perfectly sound one, right? Funny how it's not seen as "only" an 0.6.

BINGO!!!! This is exactly to what I pointed out earlier about these consumptors and investors screwing up on their decisions.

 

[d21ofnj]

Now and RXP may be failures. From my point of view: So what? Nothing ventured, nothing gained, yadda, yadda, yadda.

So it's ok to demise Pulse as a failure with all this deep explanations and talks of "business" and "investing" and the whole "dance doesn't work" rubbish, but if a station like Now or RXP would fail, it's just a simple so what? It happens?, therefore it's not ok to bash or demise Now, RXP, or any other station above 92. Now this sounds like a personal grudge that you and everyone else bashing Pulse, have on the dance music industry AND community.

 

[neo11]

Now and RXP may be failures. From my point of view: So what? Nothing ventured, nothing gained, yadda, yadda, yadda.

So it's ok to demise Pulse as a failure with all this deep explanations and talks of "business" and "investing" and the whole "dance doesn't work" rubbish, but if a station like Now or RXP would fail, it's just a simple so what? It happens?, therefore it's not ok to bash or demise Now, RXP, or any other station above 92. Now this sounds like a personal grudge that you and everyone else bashing Pulse, have on the dance music industry AND community.

This is exactly what I've been saying as well. Those who make such arguments lose their credibility immediately because it's obvious that they have a bias. And yet they're the "realists."

 

[TonySantiago]

To those that aren't "core" regarding dance music, there is something you have to understand. You don't have to agree with it, but try to understand.

For the longest time, and this can go back to the "disco sucks" movement (which BTW, happened 30 years ago - July 12, 1979), dance music fans have been ridiculed and stereotyped with the music for whatever reasons ("they don't use real instruments", "no substance", "no lyrics", "just an excuse for clubbers to trip on drugs", "the music is for (derogatory term for "gays") etc.). Yet, no one has stood up to argue the point in defense of the fans, artists, DJ's, the industry.

When I started the coalition in October, 1994, it was done on a simple premise...that there must be others such as myself that are angry with the way things are and that with unity, we can make change for the better and educate those that are willing to learn as well as to get some sort of "tolerance" for those that may not be in the know, but aren't going to berate. Those that are ignorant, nothing you can do there...they are who they are.

Long story short, a lot of why you see the extent of the passion you do in here is simply because we've taken a lot of "abuse". And now, you see people defending the genre like never before, because it was something that prior to the coalition, had never happened before. David, Justin, Oaktree, Lalumia and yes even MarcR....I understand the arguments you are presenting and am hearing them, but more importantly, being FAIR. I understand that radio is a business. Point is, the dance format here has done something that wasn't done in quite awhile to this market....bring in compelling programming to terrestrial radio. I would also feel the same way (though not my cup of tea but certainly not knocking others that like it) if country came back with a differing feel, that a rock format did something different that doesn't sound like RXP. I think the last time a station did something compelling, prior to Pulse, was La Kalle 105.9 with their "hurban/reggaeton" format. I still go by the belief of "build it and they will come". That may not be the radio thinking which is why a station that is as boring as Lite FM still gets top billings, but nevertheless, there is still something to be said about compelling programming.

That is why, despite the numbers on the surface or for whatever quirks that Pulse 87 has, you have dance fans such as myself being VERY passionate about this. If there is anything that the coalition has done, it is to get the dance music fans to not be afraid to express that passion, to show love and defend our music from the negativity. To some, we may seem like a bunch of "hardheads" that are stubborn. But for the stuff we've gone through, that is where you get the passion as thick as it is.

I'm going to enjoy Pulse until the very last day. That's all us dance fans can do here. We know down the road it's going to end...I'm certainly not blind to that. But to that, we're just going to enjoy. But understand this, when the station finally DOES end, we're not going to sit there and do nothing else. And we are certainly not going to let negativity block us. We're not a negative group.

Like I said, I do see where David, Justin and others not into the format, are coming from. Things were a big mess with MMDA BEFORE the station launched. If anything the station has actually been a positive for the company...but with everything else not doing so good, it's basically as if Pulse was the "pail trying to bail water from the ship, but the ship is still sinking". It doesn't mean that contemporary dance music isn't working. That's the point that we've been trying to make.

Thanks,

 

[davideduardo]

So it's ok to demise Pulse as a failure with all this deep explanations and talks of "business" and "investing" and the whole "dance doesn't work" rubbish, but if a station like Now or RXP would fail, it's just a simple so what? It happens?, therefore it's not ok to bash or demise Now, RXP, or any other station above 92. Now this sounds like a personal grudge that you and everyone else bashing Pulse, have on the dance music industry AND community.

That's a major exaggeration.

First, Pulse is not a "regular" radio station. I has taken the audio channel of a TV station, and seized advantage where the FCC never contemplated even regulating this sort of thing. Then, from the announcement a few months ago of Pulse coming to LA, CHicago, DC and other markets, we had them begging for handouts a week ago.

CBS and other broadcasters will try different formats, and some will not make it. That is how radio has always been; it is no different than the new TV shows the networks roll out each fall, only to see the majority fail.

But Pulse was, while being a bit of an andmirable renegade, a project with no real chance of success from the start.

That's realism, not a grudge.

 

[JustinCase]

The difference between Pulse and Now and Z, is Now and Z are owned by MULTI-MILLION DOLLAR COMPANIES that get their money all over the country.

It is sad for a company to beg for money, but what else does Mega Media own? If anything, doesn't it also show how much passion there is for a dance format in NYC? I'm sure if Z100 were to go off the air because ClearChannel was broke and begged their listeners to donate, listeners will do the same for Z. However, it would be more suspicious on CC than on Mega Media since again ClearChannel is a NATIONAL broadcasting company that gets 10X the millions than a small main street company like Mega Media.

And here I thought Mega Media was national too... wasn't it their intent to turn audio of channel 6's across the country into 87.7 stations? I'm pretty sure that was the game plan discussed on here...

Now in general... I don't care if it's 1 station or 1100 stations honestly... In my humble opinion no FOR PROFIT outlet should be doing a telethon or begging for money. It makes me sick with the banks, the car dealers and now Pulse begging on behalf of Mega... it's shameful... most people work hard for their money and pay consequences for bad decisions... so should businesses of any size.

 

[davideduardo]

Actually, I do understand the difference, except that a) you did not specify the difference by name in your post, and b) it follows that every station's actual rating will be lower than its share. However, your post singled out Pulse.

Pulse is what the thread is about... and I replied to the post that claimed a 0.8 rating, which, of course, would be #1 in NYC, so of course I differentiated between share and rating. Since the relationship is identical for every station, only one example is needed.

And couldn't that, in part at least, be explained by the fact that Pulse's weaker signal means that many listeners who live on its fringes can't receive it well, and thus leave it as a P2 or P3 and turn to it when they're in the listening area? Especially when compared to those full-powered ESB signals. Seems conceivable to me.

Since you have not looked at comparable cases, such as A's in geographically large markets, you are postulating with no evidence. In studies that I am familiar with, it's found that the impact of entering and exiting a coverage area does not have the degree you predict.

Citadel may have successful stations, but how did it accumulate some of those successful stations, like PLJ?

How does the average person accumulate a car and a house and other major purchases? By incurring debt. But if the debtor loses their job, or the overall economy causes a reduction of income, the well made plans collapse. This is what has happened to companies in every field in the US, with radio being just one of them. Citadel, using your example, would not likely be in trouble were it not for the recession. And a few million or so homowners didn't buy houses just to lose their investment, their credit and their savings, either.

1/5th the power but from from twice the height, atop the Empire State Building, on a frequency that every radio can tune to and which has been home to Spanish-language formats for a decade, and with a high-profile morning host.

The maximum potential of that signal has changed in the PPM world, due to differences in methodology, a non-accredited survey, different distribution of participants, etc. The fact is that you can look out windows in Midtown and see the ESB panels, yet inside a room or office not be able to pick up that 600 watter... so the share obtained is rather astounding.

You're citing the statistics that are most favorable to WCAA, but by that same logic, we can apply those same sorts of statistics and criteria to Pulse. And just as most of the market can't use WCAA due to language or signal considerations, most of the market can't use Pulse either, due to signal and other technical considerations.

Only about 12% of NY is Spanish dominant. That's the cap for the sum of all Spanish language stations... while Pulse, even with limited coverage, can basically try to get everyone in the areas it covers. As I said, comparing a station that, even with the best signal, is limited to 12% of the market for potential listeners with Pulse is disingenuous.

The language barrier and the large group of listeners who could not "use" those stations didn't seem to stop stations like Mega and Amor shooting to the top 5 in the ratings under the diary system, did it?

And we are not discussing the diary system. In any case, the potential caps in either service as non-Spanish dominants don't listen to Spanish language radio.

I can't see much growth in an industry that is increasingly becoming an automated jukebox with a fraction of the songs on anyone's mp3 player (yes, I know all about music testing, playing the songs that test the highest, no need to recap that lecture again....but radio is, and should be, more than just the songs that "test" well.)

A friend and I who left a station in a market a bit bigger than New York watched the #1 share go to #8. The playlist went from 450 to 1600. Guess who got called a few weeks ago to "make it better?" Guess how many songs we are playing today?

Here's a little tidbit... the average person listens to 5 to 7 radio stations. They don't stay P1 to any station for a long period, either. And the playlists of the music stations they listen to add up to several times the songs on anyones iPod. People cut back their personal lists to their favorites among the many songs they know. And when most people get over 25 or so, the strong interest in new songs is replaced with a stron interest in familiar songs.

I'm sure that ~$60 million "investment" in the 92.7 WLIR facility only to gain an extra few tenths of a share with the simulcast of 105.9, followed by an 0.6-0.7 for La Que Buena, is a perfectly sound one, right? Funny how it's not seen as "only" an 0.6.

It didn't help 105.9 the way some projected. That's the danger of letting non-operating and non-technical management look at coverage maps. As I said, not every new format works as projected, despite all the research and promotion. There are times you push "reset" and start over... a very normal thing in radio. When I was an owner, I always kept on station in the cluster available to do format flips depending on market needs... nothing wrong with a change.

In the end, 92.7 has turned out to be a very good proposition... no other station serves the Mexican community and there are many, many ad buys specifically targeting that group as well as the knowledge among Hispanic ad agencies that, due to the lack of a stratification variable in the ratings for national origin, many groups are severely undercounted. Dance, on the other hand, is just one of a myriad of English language music formats and buyers as often as not don't even bother with the formats except when r&f is being done. Que Buena is unique on multiple counts, and there is money attached to each of the points. Not so English music formats.