A Suggestion to the Dance Music fanatics...

[oaktree]

Neo, sorry to bust your angger bubble here, but it's not about "so called realists" ... it's about "fact."

Put it this way, instead of whining about why you hate the "so called realists," and obviously,  you have more experience, talent, understanding, knowledge and most of all ... money ... to increase a signal that won't happen (Pulse didn't invent the 87.7 frequency, neither did Mega,) and since you have so much experience with ratings research beyond the unusable beauty contest 12+ number (.8), why not do yourself and all of us a favor ... we get it. You love dance and you love Pulse.  Good for you. 

Now, why not show everybody here ... realists, the guys behind the curtain, the owners, the managers, the board of directors, the programmers, the jocks, the support staff, the rest of Mega ... and those at Arbitron, too ... and that miniscule (in the scheme of things) 750,000 "estimated" cume that advertisers aren't supporting ... how to do it?

That simple. Not programming ... Not guessing (and wildly guessing, at that,) because that won't grow an audience from what little signal is available ... and show us how you'd sell it to advertisers who really can make or break the station.

Ever have any experience doing this? Ever worked in radio?

Nothing wrong with you enthusiam and passion ... but its not gonna make this situation right.

 

[d21ofnj]

Look dude, if anything, you can say all you want about the dance community and how Pulse is a failure from day one and all this mumbo jumbo defending the corrpution of who's behind the curtain controlling FM, but what I stated wasn't any excuses, is it THE TRUTH of how dance was treated from day one. What matters is, Pulse is STILL on the dial, Energy 92.7 in San Fran is STILL on, and there are stations with a dance format that are in parts of the country. What you and everyone in the back expects is for the dance community to take it up where the sun don't shine, and you and everyone else are mad because we're not gonna take it.Once the dance format is completely evaporated off the dial EVERYWHERE, then we'll talk.

You cite KNGY, the dance stations in San Francisco. Again, you show anger and defend your pet format with un-facts. KNGY was sold two weeks ago. While it was purchased for $33 million by an independent operator, it was sold for $6.5 million because of the failure of the format, the economy, the economy and the economy.

The new owner, Ed Stolz' Royce International, has never run a dance station.

Energy, near Phoenix, is down to $25 k a month in billings.

And the Chicago show (not station) you menton has and Average Quarter Hour listening level of eleven hundred people.

Including the show on the Chicago station, the AQH listening level of Pulse, Energy SF, The Beat SF and the Chicago show is less than 20,000 persons in a country of over 300,000,000.

Once again, the dance format is STILL on terrestrial radio! Regards of the recent sale, Energy is STILL a dance station! They were 92.7 Party before, and then The Beat, (which was a HIP-HOP STATION), but then CAME BACK AS A DANCE FORMAT AND STILL ON TILL THIS DAY, DanceFactory FM is STILL on the air, Party 105 and C 89.5 have been on the air for OVER 10 YEARS, and Vibe 94.5 signed on the same year as Pulse did. Again, [glow=yellow,2,300]once all these stations extinct off the dial, and every other dance format station and dance music programming is out the dial as well, then you can say dance music is a failure and we can say we gave it our best. Until then, these business numbers must not be that big of a deal if the format still exists on terrestrial radio.

 

[neo11]

Neo, sorry to bust your angger bubble here, but it's not about "so called realists" ... it's about "fact."

Here's a fact...Pulse and the dance format are being bludgeoned to death while so many other failing formats, stations and corporations out there are "excused." The "it happens" argument seems to be satisfactory for others, but not for Pulse.

Put it this way, instead of whining about why you hate the "so called realists," and obviously, you have more experience, talent, understanding, knowledge and most of all ... money ... to increase a signal that won't happen (Pulse didn't invent the 87.7 frequency, neither did Mega,) and since you have so much experience with ratings research beyond the unusable beauty contest 12+ number (.8), why not do yourself and all of us a favor ... we get it. You love dance and you love Pulse. Good for you.

How about this? Stop putting words in my mouth. I never said I "hate" anyone, and it's obvious you're trying to inflame a situation despite your talk about ending this discussion (on your terms, of course). When did I ever say any of the things you spit out above?

And guess what? I'm no "dance fanatic." Dance is one of several genres I listen to, and Pulse one of several stations, most of which are quite different in content from Pulse. However, excuse me for not sharing in the haterade that's being passed around here and taking a different look at the situation.

It's a fact that the "hate" against 87.7 began at the moment it was announced that Pulse would be launched on that frequency. It seems to have taken many forms during that time, including:

1. Some people who seem to resent the fact that someone was able to get a new station, any station, on the dial, even if it was really the TV audio of Channel 6. Somehow, the fact that a new station came on the air seems to have rattled some nerves.

2. Those who wished that 87.7 would have gone with another format...e.g. country. I'm sure that the hate-fest that we've seen with Pulse would have been far, far subdued, if not completely non-existent, had such a format been placed on 87.7 instead of dance.

3. The dance "haters" and "realists"...some of whom present business reasoning and arguments behind their assertions (whether we agree or disagree), and some who just seem to have nothing else to say but negativity and hate, without anything to back it up. Some of those posters only seem to appear whenever a post about Pulse's imminent demise or the struggles of Mega Media appears, to post an "I told you so" before promptly disappearing. None of those same posters seem to appear out of the woodwork though to post anything negative about failing formats on full-power signals in NYC.

Now, why not show everybody here ... realists, the guys behind the curtain, the owners, the managers, the board of directors, the programmers, the jocks, the support staff, the rest of Mega ... and those at Arbitron, too ... and that miniscule (in the scheme of things) 750,000 "estimated" cume that advertisers aren't supporting ... how to do it?

Ah, so now it's an "estimated" cume. You seem to be implying that somehow, Pulse's numbers are inflated or the result of some sort of yet-to-be-named statistical anomaly that inflicts dance stations located at 87.7 MHz but not any other station on the dial. News flash: the cume is "estimated" for every station out there. If you doubt that Pulse has 750,000 listeners weekly, that's fine...but then let's also doubt the numbers for the other stations above and below Pulse in the ratings as well. However, you and the other alleged "realists" will instead continue to pick apart Pulse exclusively.

And here's something else: maybe radio should listen to someone other than the "suits" and the consultants. That might help them turn around a dying industry that is losing young listeners and which was losing ad revenue even before the economic downturn. It seems to me that those same people that "know what they're doing" got radio into the mess it's in today.

That simple. Not programming ... Not guessing (and wildly guessing, at that,) because that won't grow an audience from what little signal is available ... and show us how you'd sell it to advertisers who really can make or break the station.

Ever have any experience doing this? Ever worked in radio?

Now you've begun the tough talk and are deflecting from the conversation at hand. As a matter of fact, I have worked in radio, thank you for asking. Not everyone in the industry thinks like a corporate drone, though the suits are trying their damnedest to change that.

Nothing wrong with you enthusiam and passion ... but its not gonna make this situation right.

A backhanded "compliment" after a personal attack. Classy. If only more people in the industry did have that enthusiasm and passion, maybe radio wouldn't be rotting away right now.

 

[oaktree]

When did I ever say any of the things you spit out above?

Neo, who gives a rip?

You don't professionally know what's happening and you've never done it in your life. Having passion and enthusiasm does not a successful business make. You'll find that out.

First, if you ever read a rating book, you'd see on the first page that it's "rating ESTIMATES." Arbitron doesn't interview each of your friends to find out what's popular and what's not. Not 750,000 or even 1% of that. They are "estimates." The sample size is amazingly small ... but incredibly efficient. Been that way whether it's presidential elections, TV ratings or ... radio ratings, which is the biggest "barometer" for figuring out what's hot and what's not. Lighten up a little and understand how it works before you spout off your anger.

Incidentally, be grateful ... even in disagreement a compliment. No matter who says it to you.

Here's what you don't get ... facts. You just ignore them because it's convenient. You don't get it's not about you. And until you put up the bucks to do it "your way," it's not gonna be.

Lastly, when you've given the fact, like how much of a "core" there is for the format in the markets you only mention call letters and formats ... never the reality of what's happening with a core audience that is, in reality, not as large as you imagine. Sure, it's on the air. That doesn't make it sucessful or, even, popular. But you're right ... it's there , until the money runs out. And you know better. The money's not there.

The question to you, inside your anger bubble, was "how would you fix it to make it successful?" 'cause get what, dude? It isn't happening.

In case you missed it ... the question was "how would YOU make it work and be successful," and you don't have an answer, nor do you have the experience to question anybody who presents facts that you just don't like. Sorry about that.

I don't fault you for not having experience in the business ... and that's the truth. And I don't fault you for your frustration, your anger and your passion and experience ... I've said that before. The problem you don't get is that you won't accept that passion and experience do not make, especially from one person ... a bit of difference. Yes, "every vote counts" and CAN make a difference.

The problem, here, is that "estimates" show that there are too few voters (listeners) and a lot less revenue to keep this irregular station going much longer ... and begging for funds from listeners didn't get it. Plus, twice as many people on this board are looking about the WQXR sale than talking about Pulse. So, why keep coming back with the same rant?

 

[davideduardo]

Ah, so now it's an "estimated" cume. You seem to be implying that somehow, Pulse's numbers are inflated or the result of some sort of yet-to-be-named statistical anomaly that inflicts dance stations located at 87.7 MHz but not any other station on the dial.

Arbitron sells "radio audience estimates." So the numbers for Pulse are "estimates." So are those for every station, but we are not discussing other stations here.

And here's something else: maybe radio should listen to someone other than the "suits" and the consultants. That might help them turn around a dying industry that is losing young listeners and which was losing ad revenue even before the economic downturn. It seems to me that those same people that "know what they're doing" got radio into the mess it's in today.

I showed in a prior post that radio revenues, depending on the market, were either flat or even slightly growing in nearly every market through 2007. You chose to ignore that data, and then wonder why we treat you as a biased, enraged person who won't check facts.

Now you've begun the tough talk and are deflecting from the conversation at hand. As a matter of fact, I have worked in radio, thank you for asking. Not everyone in the industry thinks like a corporate drone, though the suits are trying their damnedest to change that.

It's unfortunate that you did not learn anything about the industry and the business when you worked in radio. Perhaps that is why you "once" worked in radio and don't work in it now. Few employers tolerate employees who have an agenda totally unsupported by fact, or who are against the way a business is run.

 

[davideduardo]

Once again, the dance format is STILL on terrestrial radio! Regards of the recent sale, Energy is STILL a dance station! They were 92.7 Party before, and then The Beat, (which was a HIP-HOP STATION), but then CAME BACK AS A DANCE FORMAT AND STILL ON TILL THIS DAY,

The sale was announced less than 2 weeks ago. It takes, on the average, 3 months for the FCC to approve a sale. For the moment, it is still being run by the owner who lost $27 million on the station.

DanceFactory FM is STILL on the air,

With nearly no listeners. One frequency has zero listeners, another has 300 and the other has 800 AQH listeners. That's horrible.

Party 105 and C 89.5 have been on the air for OVER 10 YEARS, and Vibe 94.5 signed on the same year as Pulse did.

Vibe has no listeners per the ratings. None at all. No show.

WDRE has an average audience level of around 1500 persons.

Again,once all these stations extinct off the dial, and every other dance format station and dance music programming is out the dial as well, then you can say dance music is a failure and we can say we gave it our best.[/glow] Until then, these business numbers must not be that big of a deal if the format still exists on terrestrial radio.

Let's see, we have San Francisco, Phoenix, Long Island, New York and Las Vegas for fulltime dance commercial stations. You have one night show with nearly no listeners. And one non.com. That´s 6 1/4 stations out of about 15,000 in the US. There are about as many doing Cajun programming.

 

[oaktree]

Cajun Dance w/Zydeco! "Gumbo Spicy!" Hey, ya never know!

I have worked in radio, thank you for asking.  Not everyone in the industry thinks like a corporate drone, though the suits are trying their damnedest to change that.

You're right, neo.  The successful ones DO, however, think like a corporate drone if they're about making money for investors ... even themselves.  That means building an audience, selling advertising (not begging listeners to fund the station,) and having a sound plan (not a guess) over what will ... and what won't work.

And you know what? You probably didn't work for one of those stations.  And that's too bad. Maybe that's why you're not in radio. You're not alone ... several thousand people are not working today because of management taking the wrong guesses people not doing the job to the benefit of the greater community and for revenue.

Maybe you worked at some place like Hammondton, NJ or something, because you really need to hook up with a station you can learn from or ... don't give up the day job just yet.  8)

And that goes for your thoughts on Alt-Rock stations, too. Seen 'em all. Same rant, no facts. No "cents" to your thinking.

 

[thefoxxman]

..just out of curiosity, what is the Phoenix dance station? I thought they changed to hip-hop?

 

[nd2023]

Don't forget Z88.9, C89.5, and Super 91.7

How do you know Vibe 94.5 has absolutely ZERO listeners? Sure, it's stick is in the middle of the Moapa Valley and it makes the cactus dance, but if you've seen its website it actually has some listeners in Vegas?
It has almost no signal in Vegas (much worse than Pulse on 34th street in Manhattan). Last time I checked, there were more advertisers than a few months ago with only one ad per hour for a bail bond agency. Who would keep a dance station on for more than a year in the middle of the desert if no one is listening?

There is a dance station audible in Hammonton, NJ

 

[TonySantiago]

..just out of curiosity, what is the Phoenix dance station? I thought they changed to hip-hop?

It was KNRJ (Energy 92.7/101.1). They flipped last Halloween.

 

[TonySantiago]

Last notes on this........

I am going to say it again.

This thread has become VERY heated, kinda the same way we had an argument happen on the Philadelphia board last year regarding trying to land a dance station (or "dans stayshun" for those on that board...lol) to cover the entire region, not just the spots that Z88.9 and Super 91.7 are covering.

Let's just sum it up......you have radio as a business, understood. You have dance fans who are really passionate about this and see things that perhaps radio is missing, that is understood. So I'm going to twist it this way....I wish there were more programmers out there that really understand dance music and the nuances it has.

Unlike most formats where you do the "testing", "research", get back the consultant reports, burn lists, etc., dance is tricky because part of the problems here are:

1. Too regional. I use freestyle in this because Pulse 87 does play classic stuff in that regards, but could that necessarily fly in Boston? Los Angeles? To my understanding, drum and bass...a genre of dance, is actually popular in New England from the "rave crowd" out that way...would that work in New York? Lots of nuances.

2. Back to the reports, yes you can look at them. But in the case of dance there are certain factors that can be easily overlooked if you just solely stick to the "papers". It can be that one track that has that potential buzz and the only way it can be proven is if that track was given a chance, by plain "gut instinct". To that, it would be that programmer who knows the specific market he/she is in that would figure, hey let me give this a shot. It could be hit, it could be miss....but it couldn't be known any other case other than being played right on air since a consultant report would totally miss on it.

3. Developing that potential fanbase. In Europe, dance IS pop. It wouldn't be out of the ordinary (best example here...tune in to BBC's Radio One on Sirius XM) to hear rock, pop and dance all intertwined into the format. And while CHR here might play one or two dance tracks (Kim Sozzi being the biggest one with "Feel Your Love"), it still isn't enough to get those NOT "P1' to open up to more potential dance hits. I think if that were to happen, eventually more dance stations like a Pulse would come, along with more programmers learning and understanding the potential quirks can open up to it. I still think in that sense, it's really a matter of looking at the college stations to try and fill that void so as more can learn from it.

So when you get down to it, yes, dance fans such as myself have passion, but we're also seeing things upon a different angle that those who don't understand dance music could know. And on the other hand you have radio as a business that wants to keep afloat, so they'll go with a boring format that can hit a 4.0 and while that may work out well for the advertisers it still brings a bland taste to those passing it along the dial or perhaps stopping there because a certain song may come on.

Folks, let's all close the book on this thread. It was orginally done because MarcR wanted to bait me with more arguments, but never responding back to my results to which I always give back; yeah, I "fell for it again" : . Here and on that other board...when the bleep will I ever learn?

 

[d21ofnj]

Don't forget Z88.9, C89.5, and Super 91.7
How do you know Vibe 94.5 has absolutely ZERO listeners? Sure, it's stick is in the middle of the Moapa Valley and it makes the cactus dance, but if you've seen its website it actually has some listeners in Vegas?

Remember, he has "surveyed everyone in every market" according to the census report and by the arbitron.

 

[d21ofnj]

Posts: 16107

2009 - 50 years in radio




Re: A Suggestion to the Dance Music fanatics...
« Reply #85 on: Yesterday at 08:54:10 pm »
Reply with quoteQuote
Quote from: d21ofnj on Yesterday at 04:47:01 pm
Once again, the dance format is STILL on terrestrial radio! Regards of the recent sale, Energy is STILL a dance station! They were 92.7 Party before, and then The Beat, (which was a HIP-HOP STATION), but then CAME BACK AS A DANCE FORMAT AND STILL ON TILL THIS DAY,

The sale was announced less than 2 weeks ago. It takes, on the average, 3 months for the FCC to approve a sale. For the moment, it is still being run by the owner who lost $27 million on the station.

Quote
DanceFactory FM is STILL on the air,

With nearly no listeners. One frequency has zero listeners, another has 300 and the other has 800 AQH listeners. That's horrible.

Quote
Party 105 and C 89.5 have been on the air for OVER 10 YEARS, and Vibe 94.5 signed on the same year as Pulse did.

Vibe has no listeners per the ratings. None at all. No show.

WDRE has an average audience level of around 1500 persons.

Quote
Again,once all these stations extinct off the dial, and every other dance format station and dance music programming is out the dial as well, then you can say dance music is a failure and we can say we gave it our best.[/glow] Until then, these business numbers must not be that big of a deal if the format still exists on terrestrial radio.

Let's see, we have San Francisco, Phoenix, Long Island, New York and Las Vegas for fulltime dance commercial stations. You have one night show with nearly no listeners. And one non.com. That´s 6 1/4 stations out of about 15,000 in the US. There are about as many doing Cajun programming.



Dude, point is, this format is STILL ON THE AIR, correct? This format is serving the dance community, correct? DO I have to say this in spanish for you that once the dance format is off the dial, THEN you can say whatever to me?

 

[candykidjade]

You know, I appreciate the companies that are putting dance music on the dial, but at the same time, is it worth dealing with the people who generally screw up the industry? Think about it, there is a REASON certain formats are on the dial. FM doesn't care about the listeners, they just only cater to those who know that are gonna follow the crowd. Dance music doesn't bring in revenue or investments to their pocket, and that's what they are looking for. Since stations like Party 105 and Pulse, who generate revenue and ads locally, are the ones considered failures. Since these stations are commercial, but serve their community, it is not what the big guys want. They want a format that can bring in revenue and investments NATIONALLY, to keep the major corporation in business. Again, I love and enjoy dance music, but it is not worth to be dealt with on FM. If you notice, the formats on FM are getting less choice, and are focusing on demos to stay alive. This is what FM is, it's not about emotion or passion anymore, it's about who or what they can get to keep the bills paid. Look, I'm not saying dance music shouldn't be on the dial, but to deal with guys in the industry like the ones on this board, having a dance format station on the dial is slim to none. Either go BPM, try to get use to HD, or simply go online. There are TONS of dance stations online that are 10x better operated and have less heat in the back than the dance stations on FM.

 

[davideduardo]

How do you know Vibe 94.5 has absolutely ZERO listeners?

Las Vegas Arbitron, which covers all Clark County has the station as a no-show. Since the purpose of ratings is to sell advertising, if a station does not show in Arbitron it "has no listeners:"

The fact is that Arbitron applies a rule called Minimum Reporting Standards, which requires a tiny minimum audience level, generally the equivalent of about a 0.2 (two tenths of a percent of listening) to show in the book. The fact is, the station has much less than the MRS level, with a rating of 0.0 and 300 AQH persons in the last survey (and 200 AQH persons in the previous one). Since that is considered below the level of reliability for the survey, KVBe does not appear in the ratings advertisers see. So, as far as the radio industry and the ad community are concerned, it has no listeners.

 

[davideduardo]

...but at the same time, is it worth dealing with the people who generally screw up the industry? Think about it, there is a REASON certain formats are on the dial. FM doesn't care about the listeners, they just only cater to those who know that are gonna follow the crowd.

The "broad" inb "broadcasting" says it all... radio is a mass medium, and unless any particular station attracts a significantly large following and use level (cume and AQH persons) they will not succeed. So radio cares a lot about listeners, but can not operate if what a particular station does attracts so few that the revenues won't pay the expenses and leave something left over for those who took the risk, invested money and put time into creating the station.

Dance music doesn't bring in revenue or investments to their pocket, and that's what they are looking for.

Not quite. I know there is an anti-profit and anti-business wave that is growing in these difficult times, but an investment is supposed to produce revenues. Revenues have to be greater than expenses, and what is left over of the revenue after paying costs is profit.

And, yes, definitely, anyone who puts (invests) money into a business expects profits. Otherwise, why put the moeny you invest at risk?

Since stations like Party 105 and Pulse, who generate revenue and ads locally, are the ones considered failures.

If the revenue does not cover expenses, any business is considered a failure. That means they are losing money, and if they run out of money, as Pulse did, they can not continue to operate.

Since these stations are commercial, but serve their community, it is not what the big guys want. They want a format that can bring in revenue and investments NATIONALLY, to keep the major corporation in business.

Again, you invest money to make a profit. You don't get "an investment" from the operation of a business.

Operators want to have a profit. And radio is sold as a local medium, even in national buys, which is why even the big companies have different formats in different markets. But if the income does not cover costs, then the format changes... in New York, New Albany or New Orleans.

If you notice, the formats on FM are getting less choice, and are focusing on demos to stay alive.

Every station focus on demos... because the composition of the audience is what makes a station attractive, or not, to advertisers. It's been that way for half a century.

This is what FM is, it's not about emotion or passion anymore, it's about who or what they can get to keep the bills paid.

Unless the bills are paid, there is no opportunity for creativity, passion or emotion. That's because the station will have to change format. Commercial radio requires that advertising revenues pay the costs. And if they don't, the station changes... format, owner, management... but it has to change.

 

[davideduardo]

Re: Last notes on this........

Unlike most formats where you do the "testing", "research", get back the consultant reports, burn lists, etc., dance is tricky because part of the problems here are:

2. Back to the reports, yes you can look at them. But in the case of dance there are certain factors that can be easily overlooked if you just solely stick to the "papers". It can be that one track that has that potential buzz and the only way it can be proven is if that track was given a chance, by plain "gut instinct". To that, it would be that programmer who knows the specific market he/she is in that would figure, hey let me give this a shot. It could be hit, it could be miss....but it couldn't be known any other case other than being played right on air since a consultant report would totally miss on it.

All formats that play currents have the same situation. There is no research on brand new songs. You can only start testing the acceptance of a song after weeks and weeks of play. So every PD has to rely on the feel of a song for their station to make an add. After that, they can test a song in a month or so and find out if they were right... or wrong.

Developing that potential fanbase. In Europe, dance IS pop. It wouldn't be out of the ordinary (best example here...tune in to BBC's Radio One on Sirius XM) to hear rock, pop and dance all intertwined into the format. And while CHR here might play one or two dance tracks (Kim Sozzi being the biggest one with "Feel Your Love"), it still isn't enough to get those NOT "P1' to open up to more potential dance hits.

I agree here. I listen to a number of European stations online, and like the feel of a station with some dance mixed in. I don't know why CHRs don't give a play or two to some of the more commercial sounding dance cuts from Europe. Of course, I actually did a dance based station (WDOY, Y-96 in Puerto Rico) many years ago (Joel Salkowitz came in to consult us once, too!) so I have more affinity to the sound than many. I actually do agree that the image of dance among many radio management folks is negative, so there is much lacking before dance could get on a decent facility anywhere these days.

And on the other hand you have radio as a business that wants to keep afloat, so they'll go with a boring format that can hit a 4.0 and while that may work out well for the advertisers it still brings a bland taste to those passing it along the dial or perhaps stopping there because a certain song may come on.

A 4.0 share in NY means a station with several million in cume, so it is not boring to a bunch of people. Keep in mind that many don't want an up tempo station... they want a soft mood station or a talk station or something besides a beat driven format. And to them, what they pick is likely not boring at all.

To me, the issue is that dance failed in some significant major signal situations, like Party in Miami, and station owners are afraid of the format... so you get bad signals, undercapitalized owners and weak execution in most cases where the format is tried. Maybe what we need is a realy, really good mass appeal dance web station, one with personalities, mix shows, real voices and not just a WinAmp playlist... and some support from the labels, club promotion nationally, real press releases, national dance contests (Dancing With The Stars seems to work for other genres) and some sizzle to "Take the Travolta out of Dance" image wise.

 

[neo11]

Cajun Dance w/Zydeco! "Gumbo Spicy!" Hey, ya never know!

I have worked in radio, thank you for asking. Not everyone in the industry thinks like a corporate drone, though the suits are trying their damnedest to change that.

You're right, neo. The successful ones DO, however, think like a corporate drone if they're about making money for investors ... even themselves. That means building an audience, selling advertising (not begging listeners to fund the station,) and having a sound plan (not a guess) over what will ... and what won't work.

And you know what? You probably didn't work for one of those stations. And that's too bad. Maybe that's why you're not in radio. You're not alone ... several thousand people are not working today because of management taking the wrong guesses people not doing the job to the benefit of the greater community and for revenue.

Maybe you worked at some place like Hammondton, NJ or something, because you really need to hook up with a station you can learn from or ... don't give up the day job just yet. 8)

And that goes for your thoughts on Alt-Rock stations, too. Seen 'em all. Same rant, no facts. No "cents" to your thinking.

As opposed to the mountains of data and statistics that you provide in post after post, of course. Same rant, no facts? As for everything else you wrote, if you feel the need to resort to such cheap and petty personal attacks, go right ahead and make yourself look worse.

 

[neo11]

I agree here. I listen to a number of European stations online, and like the feel of a station with some dance mixed in. I don't know why CHRs don't give a play or two to some of the more commercial sounding dance cuts from Europe. Of course, I actually did a dance based station (WDOY, Y-96 in Puerto Rico) many years ago (Joel Salkowitz came in to consult us once, too!) so I have more affinity to the sound than many. I actually do agree that the image of dance among many radio management folks is negative, so there is much lacking before dance could get on a decent facility anywhere these days.

See? This is a reasonable response and one which "haters" and "fanatics" both can probably agree upon. It's also revealing: there *is* a negative perception about dance in the industry,; a perception that prevented even more mainstream, commercial sounds from being heard on CHR stations...which, as pointed out above, often do have to go with the "feel" of a song initially, before there is time to test it and to gauge listener response.

 

[JohnParker]

This has been quite an interesting thread. I hadn't been on in a few days so it took me a minute to catch up. The bottom line is that for people their perception is their reality. You can't set out to change that with a baseball bat over the head. You have to win people over. And that takes time. In the radio game, time isn't the friend of the dance format. We all know that.

As for stations not being able to make it, that just isn't true and an example of that is in San Francisco. The fact is that the Current (soon to be previous) owners of Energy overpaid by tens of millions of dollars for the station. There was no way that they were ever going to make that money back in the near future. Detractors will say the dance format doesn't work, look how much money they lost on that station, much like the "expert" in the blog linked earlier in this thread and people without knowledge of the situation will take that as gospel. Meanwhile, selling now and taking this loss may help their books for all we know. Or maybe they just realized that they'd never make that money back and decided to get out and cut their losses. While I have no direct knowledge of this, I've discovered in my talks with some that the station actually does ok in billing. Don't be surprised if something good happens with this new SF - LV synergy going on in the new ownership group. Time will tell.