A Suggestion to the Dance Music fanatics...

[myke25]

Speaking of annoying DJs, most of us dislike Delilah, but you don't go around making fun of people who enjoy her show.

the people who like delilah are usually oversized, stuffy, toothless midwestern women who miss their incarcerated lovers.

 

[MarcR]

That's what radio shoves down our throats.

No, radio reflects taste.

You would think then that listeners would hear substantially less hip hop on the radio since that genre has dropped from the third to the sixth most popular genre of music over the course of this decade, and yet it doesn't seem to go away, at least on the radio. Why is that so?

 

[davideduardo]

You would think then that listeners would hear substantially less hip hop on the radio since that genre has dropped from the third to the sixth most popular genre of music over the course of this decade, and yet it doesn't seem to go away, at least on the radio. Why is that so?

Third to sixth in what?

On the radio, hip hop is part of CHRs, CHurbans, Urbans and even Urban AC stations. THose stations are doing quite well in the ratings, and ratings are the metric that radio uses, not music sales or such.

 

[MarcR]

You would think then that listeners would hear substantially less hip hop on the radio since that genre has dropped from the third to the sixth most popular genre of music over the course of this decade, and yet it doesn't seem to go away, at least on the radio. Why is that so?

Third to sixth in what?

From the third most purchased genre of music to the sixth. If sales aren't so significant, then I think you answered my question.

 

[davideduardo]

From the third most purchased genre of music to the sixth. If sales aren't so significant, then I think you answered my question.

Sales are of minimal importance, if any, to radio programming..

 

[nd2023]

Now we have the haters fighting amongst themselves.

Abraham Lincoln once said, "A house divided against itself, cannot stand"

 

[Jeffrey]

From the third most purchased genre of music to the sixth. If sales aren't so significant, then I think you answered my question.

Sales are of minimal importance, if any, to radio programming..

If sales are of minimal importance to radio programming it is more than safe to assume that radio is out of touch with what the listeners actually want.

 

[davideduardo]

Sales are of minimal importance, if any, to radio programming..

If sales are of minimal importance to radio programming it is more than safe to assume that radio is out of touch with what the listeners actually want.

Sales data ceased to be useful at the end of the 60's as formats fragmented. The qestion is, "who is buying each song?" and there is no answer. So we do not know if a song is selling to our listeners, or those of a few dozen other stations. Or to peeps who heard it in a movie, or online, or in a TV show.

And very little music is sold to anyone over 30, so the adult formats can not get anything of use out of sales, because their listeners buy music even less often than they go to the movies, which is just about never.

So stations pick listeners to our own formats, and have them score each song we might consider playing. And we do it several times a year. And if we play currents, we test those every couple of weeks. We know moment to moment what songs are good and which are not.

In a recent project for a station that has been among the very top stations in LA for a decade and a half, not a single person had bought music in the last 6 months...

 

[JohnParker]

Sales data ceased to be useful at the end of the 60's as formats fragmented. The qestion is, "who is buying each song?" and there is no answer. So we do not know if a song is selling to our listeners, or those of a few dozen other stations. Or to peeps who heard it in a movie, or online, or in a TV show.

And very little music is sold to anyone over 30, so the adult formats can not get anything of use out of sales, because their listeners buy music even less often than they go to the movies, which is just about never.

So stations pick listeners to our own formats, and have them score each song we might consider playing. And we do it several times a year. And if we play currents, we test those every couple of weeks. We know moment to moment what songs are good and which are not.

In a recent project for a station that has been among the very top stations in LA for a decade and a half, not a single person had bought music in the last 6 months...

I'd be curious if that panel was asked if they've "gotten" music by any means in the last 6 months. Also the means to collect sales data by demos is out there but we just have to get Apple to agree to sell it. I also don't believe that stations don't look at sales data. It might not hold the weight it did long ago when the numbers were based on a wink and a box of cleans going to a store but the Soundscan data is fairly accurate and the programmers that I know do at least look at it.

jp

PS - Is anyone else having a problem typing in responses here. When I get to the bottom of the text box and it has to scroll down I can't see what I'm typing as the scroll just bounces the message up and down.

 

[davideduardo]

In a recent project for a station that has been among the very top stations in LA for a decade and a half, not a single person had bought music in the last 6 months...

I'd be curious if that panel was asked if they've "gotten" music by any means in the last 6 months.

The question, actually, was multiple choice... it asked about acquiring songs via record stores, online downloads, etc. This case the station is a traditional AC, and although it plays currents, listeners seldom buy music although they are avid concert-goers.

Also the means to collect sales data by demos is out there but we just have to get Apple to agree to sell it.

Still a lot of music is sold at WalMart and Best Buy, etc. And there are other download sites, starting with Amazon. Whether at retail or online, we have no idea what stations a person uses. We don't know if the music is for a gift. And we don't know if the account holder is the person consuming the music. But most important, for many formats even if we knew this data, music is bought by so few people that it is irrelevant. On the other hand, there is lots of music people like hearing but don't want to buy... current and gold. By going directly to listeners, we get that data.

I also don't believe that stations don't look at sales data. It might not hold the weight it did long ago when the numbers were based on a wink and a box of cleans going to a store but the Soundscan data is fairly accurate and the programmers that I know do at least look at it.

The only reason I can think of to look at it is to find out what CDs might be good prize items... most of the data represents collections of songs, i.e. albums, so there is no help in determining the right cut for one's own listeners.

PS - Is anyone else having a problem typing in responses here. When I get to the bottom of the text box and it has to scroll down I can't see what I'm typing as the scroll just bounces the message up and down.

I had that issue with IE 8 until I put it in compatibility mode. Issue resolved.

 

[in3media_be1]

Some posts from this thread have been moved to Take It Outside



http://boards.radio-info.com/smf/index.php?topic=150286.msg1263042#msg1263042

 

[Morpheux]

I don't understand why dance music fans are so defensive. I dj for a long time and I played real club music.

What exactly is "dance" anyway??

People dance to country and to polka. Is that dance too?

I hear the purists say all the time that Lady Gaga,Pitbull and the likes of Flo Rida are not "dance".

When most of their songs currently have the same elements of a house song or sampled older club music.

All those artists listed above have made club music pop music again but people refused to acknowlege it.

They're waiting for a David Guetta type to go # 1 before they claim victory. Well,I hate to burst your bubble but it's not gonna happen in the US....

 

[Dancerev889]

I don't understand why dance music fans are so defensive. I dj for a long time and I played real club music.

What exactly is "dance" anyway??

People dance to country and to polka. Is that dance too?

I hear the purists say all the time that Lady Gaga,Pitbull and the likes of Flo Rida are not "dance".

When most of their songs currently have the same elements of a house song or sampled older club music.

All those artists listed above have made club music pop music again but people refused to acknowlege it.

They're waiting for a David Guetta type to go # 1 before they claim victory. Well,I hate to burst your bubble but it's not gonna happen in the US....

I agree with you on a lot of what you said
I think the people that get very defensive are the ones that dont understand the biz as much as they should. Purist fans are one of the reasons that dance music gets a bad rap. All the artists you mention above in my opinion are dance artists. Pitbull took a dance instrumental and turned it into a smash hit. A pure dance station doesnt work. Pulse wasnt even a pure dance station in the eyes of a purist. They played the pop songs too. The music is coming back. Top 40 is starting to get that upbeat sound again.

 

[trock]

I agree pure dance stations don't work just like pure rap stations don't work. I remember the beloved old hot 103/97 wasn't pure dance either. They played BBD,Bobby Brown etc. and mixed it in with the dance. I think once pop/rhythmic stations start doing that and it seems they slowly are, dance can be viable again in the U.S.

 

[TonySantiago]

I don't understand why dance music fans are so defensive. I dj for a long time and I played real club music.

What exactly is "dance" anyway??

People dance to country and to polka. Is that dance too?

I hear the purists say all the time that Lady Gaga,Pitbull and the likes of Flo Rida are not "dance".

When most of their songs currently have the same elements of a house song or sampled older club music.

All those artists listed above have made club music pop music again but people refused to acknowlege it.

They're waiting for a David Guetta type to go # 1 before they claim victory. Well,I hate to burst your bubble but it's not gonna happen in the US....

I agree with you on a lot of what you said
I think the people that get very defensive are the ones that dont understand the biz as much as they should. Purist fans are one of the reasons that dance music gets a bad rap. All the artists you mention above in my opinion are dance artists. Pitbull took a dance instrumental and turned it into a smash hit. A pure dance station doesnt work. Pulse wasnt even a pure dance station in the eyes of a purist. They played the pop songs too. The music is coming back. Top 40 is starting to get that upbeat sound again.

Morpheux,

I think you know why we get defensive. Because ever since the "Disco Demolition Derby" of 1979, dance music has always been maligned, "beat up" and considered a bastard child of contemporary music....part of which could be blamed on ourselves because of the "disposable" nature of the music. Nevertheless, for those of us that are fans, we've always stood strong with it and this time don't want the same thing to happen "twice". That's why we get defensive....

Brett,

Hold on there! I know that you know dance music has had a bad rap for a bit. But to blame part of it on the purist fans? I don't think that is fair.

You do realize that (with the exception of the disco era and the mid 80's/early 90's) dance music has always had a recognition problem. Part of it could be blamed for its own insistence of remaining "underground". Another aspect was SoundScan, that eventually killed off the major label and radio support of dance music and was left mainly to the indies. Yet through it all, those of us that stayed true to dance music, even through the roughest of points, did so for the love of the music and nothing else. That was why the coalition was created; while the main reason was to get a dance station back in NYC, it was also made to have unity in support of dance and eventually gain mainstream support.

I knew Hot 103/97 as a "Top 40/Urban" format, which had a lot of dance sprinkled in...but I do remember hearing groups like Pet Shop Boys and other pop acts of the time being played there. 'KTU was a "pop-rhythm" format but the biggest problem a lot of us had was the fact that there was very little currents being added on, knowing that we had to wait through Bee Gees, Donna Summer and Gloria Gaynor before we would hear a new track. Okay Brett, I know what you're going to say because I've heard this ad nauseum......'KTU was marketed to the female 25-54 demographics and was not meant to be a dance station and they were successful with it on a business platform. Nevertheless, people had equated the format on 'KTU as dance, not for what they really were...an older skewing rhythmic station not focusing as much on currents. I never had expected a "pure" station to arrive back in 1996, but not what it appeared to be either. Yes, 'KTU was successful for the first 9 years or so it did that format, but we had only wished a little more current took place. If anything, I think it would have done more for the ratings.

So Pulse 87 arrives in 2008, 1 1/2 years after 'KTU went Rhythmic A/C and it came off, IMHO a bit stronger than what Hot 103 did when it first launched. I have heard the complaints from those that wanted more out of Pulse, but heck with the past 16 years of not having anything as strong as this, I've embraced it from day one (The "Unofficial" Pulse 87 Fan Board was my creation that happened on February 11, 2008, just before Facebook took off...something I'm proud of ) Along the way artists such as Lady Gaga, Pitbull and Flo Rida arrive, just to name a few. For me, and you can go back to older posts as a reference, I have felt that while I personally wasn't crazy (actually on an artist like Flo Rida) on certain R&B/rhythmic artists, that the music HAD to be played on a Pulse to attract that crowd to open up to dance. Purists didn't necessarily agree with me on it, but I was also thinking about the casual listener as well that had NO idea who a Kim Sozzi, Lucas Prata or a George Lamond was.

Purists have argued about "pop-remixes" as well. Compared to the "extended" versions of remixes back in the 80's, those remixes have come a long way for the better. I still think of Beyonce's "Single Ladies" (Dave Aude) and Lady Gaga's "Poker Face" (Jody Den Broeder) as some of the best pop remixes I've heard in quite awhile. Pitbull's "Calle Ocho?" I applaud it! If a dance artist can cross over big, then great! I'm hoping the best for Kim Sozzi in that regard.

Within the coalition, I am working on a big project called the "Dance Music Creed" which is supposed to be a sort of "code of ethics" regarding our music, basically saying to support all dance, spread the education, not to "stab" or throw "egos" on each other, do not knock other genres of contemporary music, don't knock within our genres, etc. Now granted, no dance fan will ever come to full agreement with one another and no, you can't please everyone from within, but I do believe that without the fans of the music, dance music would be in a worse position in this country than it already is.

And yes, things are improving! Just today on Hot 97, I've heard a hip-hop track with dance beats interlaced in it. Power 96 in Miami had played "Angel On My Shoulder"...an older track yes, but one I would have never expected a pop or rhythmic station to play.

About the radio biz? Heck, I wanted to be in it at one time. Luckily for me it was a blessing in disguise that I didn't get involved since with all of the corporate layoffs happening all over along with the growth of the Internet as a viable musical aural source, terrestrial radio is suffering. And in that sense Brett, it can't be "business as usual". Your argument would have held strong and undisputable in 1996. Not today. If anything, people are CRAVING for something different with radio..not necessarily dance mind you, but something different. Pulse 87 did that. And yet radio purists (since the purist argument is being used here) will argue that since it can't crack a 0.7, it shows that dance music doesn't perform well...without CONSIDERING the limitations (signal, dial location) the station has. I will staunchly state that if the station was above 92 with the standard signal as all other New York licensed stations, it would be in the Top 5, no question.

Thank God for the dance music fans out there! The "beg-a-thon" proved it even if the monies were returned. We will support you. But don't shoot them down in the process.

Thank you and apologies for the length of this. See you at the DJ Expo Brett.

TS

 

[Morpheux]

I have to play devil's advocate here.

The Pulse 87 beg-a-thon was merely a misguided publicity stunt.

All it proved is that x amount of dance fans are willing to donate money to keep the station on air. However,those x amount of fans are a tiny drop of the NY market. It reminds me off certain pirate stations of the past who pleaded with their listeners to donate money to fight the FCC legally. It's a ploy for sympathy and I think you are capable of realizing that.

In fact, I think you have become a very convenient pawn for Pulse 87 to generate publicity on these boards and elsewhere.You are great for riling up the the dance troops for the cause but it's time to abandon ship!!

 

[Dancerev889]

I don't understand why dance music fans are so defensive. I dj for a long time and I played real club music.

What exactly is "dance" anyway??

People dance to country and to polka. Is that dance too?

I hear the purists say all the time that Lady Gaga,Pitbull and the likes of Flo Rida are not "dance".

When most of their songs currently have the same elements of a house song or sampled older club music.

All those artists listed above have made club music pop music again but people refused to acknowlege it.

They're waiting for a David Guetta type to go # 1 before they claim victory. Well,I hate to burst your bubble but it's not gonna happen in the US....

I agree with you on a lot of what you said
I think the people that get very defensive are the ones that dont understand the biz as much as they should. Purist fans are one of the reasons that dance music gets a bad rap. All the artists you mention above in my opinion are dance artists. Pitbull took a dance instrumental and turned it into a smash hit. A pure dance station doesnt work. Pulse wasnt even a pure dance station in the eyes of a purist. They played the pop songs too. The music is coming back. Top 40 is starting to get that upbeat sound again.

Morpheux,

I think you know why we get defensive. Because ever since the "Disco Demolition Derby" of 1979, dance music has always been maligned, "beat up" and considered a bastard child of contemporary music....part of which could be blamed on ourselves because of the "disposable" nature of the music. Nevertheless, for those of us that are fans, we've always stood strong with it and this time don't want the same thing to happen "twice". That's why we get defensive....

Brett,

Hold on there! I know that you know dance music has had a bad rap for a bit. But to blame part of it on the purist fans? I don't think that is fair.

You do realize that (with the exception of the disco era and the mid 80's/early 90's) dance music has always had a recognition problem. Part of it could be blamed for its own insistence of remaining "underground". Another aspect was SoundScan, that eventually killed off the major label and radio support of dance music and was left mainly to the indies. Yet through it all, those of us that stayed true to dance music, even through the roughest of points, did so for the love of the music and nothing else. That was why the coalition was created; while the main reason was to get a dance station back in NYC, it was also made to have unity in support of dance and eventually gain mainstream support.

I knew Hot 103/97 as a "Top 40/Urban" format, which had a lot of dance sprinkled in...but I do remember hearing groups like Pet Shop Boys and other pop acts of the time being played there. 'KTU was a "pop-rhythm" format but the biggest problem a lot of us had was the fact that there was very little currents being added on, knowing that we had to wait through Bee Gees, Donna Summer and Gloria Gaynor before we would hear a new track. Okay Brett, I know what you're going to say because I've heard this ad nauseum......'KTU was marketed to the female 25-54 demographics and was not meant to be a dance station and they were successful with it on a business platform. Nevertheless, people had equated the format on 'KTU as dance, not for what they really were...an older skewing rhythmic station not focusing as much on currents. I never had expected a "pure" station to arrive back in 1996, but not what it appeared to be either. Yes, 'KTU was successful for the first 9 years or so it did that format, but we had only wished a little more current took place. If anything, I think it would have done more for the ratings.

So Pulse 87 arrives in 2008, 1 1/2 years after 'KTU went Rhythmic A/C and it came off, IMHO a bit stronger than what Hot 103 did when it first launched. I have heard the complaints from those that wanted more out of Pulse, but heck with the past 16 years of not having anything as strong as this, I've embraced it from day one (The "Unofficial" Pulse 87 Fan Board was my creation that happened on February 11, 2008, just before Facebook took off...something I'm proud of ) Along the way artists such as Lady Gaga, Pitbull and Flo Rida arrive, just to name a few. For me, and you can go back to older posts as a reference, I have felt that while I personally wasn't crazy (actually on an artist like Flo Rida) on certain R&B/rhythmic artists, that the music HAD to be played on a Pulse to attract that crowd to open up to dance. Purists didn't necessarily agree with me on it, but I was also thinking about the casual listener as well that had NO idea who a Kim Sozzi, Lucas Prata or a George Lamond was.

Purists have argued about "pop-remixes" as well. Compared to the "extended" versions of remixes back in the 80's, those remixes have come a long way for the better. I still think of Beyonce's "Single Ladies" (Dave Aude) and Lady Gaga's "Poker Face" (Jody Den Broeder) as some of the best pop remixes I've heard in quite awhile. Pitbull's "Calle Ocho?" I applaud it! If a dance artist can cross over big, then great! I'm hoping the best for Kim Sozzi in that regard.

Within the coalition, I am working on a big project called the "Dance Music Creed" which is supposed to be a sort of "code of ethics" regarding our music, basically saying to support all dance, spread the education, not to "stab" or throw "egos" on each other, do not knock other genres of contemporary music, don't knock within our genres, etc. Now granted, no dance fan will ever come to full agreement with one another and no, you can't please everyone from within, but I do believe that without the fans of the music, dance music would be in a worse position in this country than it already is.

And yes, things are improving! Just today on Hot 97, I've heard a hip-hop track with dance beats interlaced in it. Power 96 in Miami had played "Angel On My Shoulder"...an older track yes, but one I would have never expected a pop or rhythmic station to play.

About the radio biz? Heck, I wanted to be in it at one time. Luckily for me it was a blessing in disguise that I didn't get involved since with all of the corporate layoffs happening all over along with the growth of the Internet as a viable musical aural source, terrestrial radio is suffering. And in that sense Brett, it can't be "business as usual". Your argument would have held strong and undisputable in 1996. Not today. If anything, people are CRAVING for something different with radio..not necessarily dance mind you, but something different. Pulse 87 did that. And yet radio purists (since the purist argument is being used here) will argue that since it can't crack a 0.7, it shows that dance music doesn't perform well...without CONSIDERING the limitations (signal, dial location) the station has. I will staunchly state that if the station was above 92 with the standard signal as all other New York licensed stations, it would be in the Top 5, no question.

Thank God for the dance music fans out there! The "beg-a-thon" proved it even if the monies were returned. We will support you. But don't shoot them down in the process.

Thank you and apologies for the length of this. See you at the DJ Expo Brett.

TS

The purist do have a role in the reason dance doesnt thrive. At the Winter Music Conference 3 years ago, I went to a panel that had 4 of the big dance producers/djs in the world on it. They all said Madonna was not a dance artist. They also said Justin Timberlake's album wasnt dance. They also said the samething about Rihanna. This is one of the reasons the dance community has issues being accepted in the states. Don't you think a Kim Sozzi wants to be known as a pop artist? The genre has killed itself time and time again. Don't blame soundscan. Every other genre has dealt with this. We make too many excuses as to why dance music hasnt been more successful. We also have too many so called artists that thing they are bigger than they actually are. There will be a few of them down in AC. We also have to stop blaming something that happened in 1976.

I give Joel all the credit in the world, I think he did a great job programming the station. Pulse's problem wasnt the music it was the business side of the model. They jumped the gun on trying to expand but just looking at everything I have read about their current financial situation, how can you expand, when you cant pay the bills? It doesnt matter where on the dial they are, there are a ton of non-coms that make more than the commercial stations.

 

[nd2023]

I have to play devil's advocate here.

The Pulse 87 beg-a-thon was merely a misguided publicity stunt.

All it proved is that x amount of dance fans are willing to donate money to keep the station on air. However,those x amount of fans are a tiny drop of the NY market. It reminds me off certain pirate stations of the past who pleaded with their listeners to donate money to fight the FCC legally. It's a ploy for sympathy and I think you are capable of realizing that.

In fact, I think you have become a very convenient pawn for Pulse 87 to generate publicity on these boards and elsewhere.You are great for riling up the the dance troops for the cause but it's time to abandon ship!!

Tony Santiago has been clamoring for a dance format for over 15 years, and when Pulse 87 went on the air, he focused his efforts into supporting Pulse 87. He will never abandon ship. I am sure he will be pushing for more dance on NOW when Pulse goes under.
I made a Facebook group the minute that the beg-a-thon started to disseminate information on how to donate to Pulse 87. I told all my friends to donate, and I even convinced a few to try listening to 87.7 and now they like it.
If it was a publicity stunt, so be it. I had a fun time rallying the listeners to donate. I think this was one of the worst publicity stunt ideas possible. The stock price is now half a penny, it used to be steady at 2 cents before the beg-a-thon. So unless some insiders short-sold the stock (which is illegal), they knew the stock price would go down.
WBAI and WFME have fewer listeners combined than Pulse 87, so the people that donate to support those stations are an even tinier drop of the NY market.
It's rare for a commercial station to ask for donations, but they really needed it. Looking at a recent form 8-K, Mega Media got 2 people to invest $68,000 the day after the beg-a-thon.
They really needed DC, LA, and Chicago this summer. Even if they were a straight simulcast with no local events outside NYC, revenues would have increased a lot. They would be able to get more national contracts with the national coverage. But there's no use speculating on what will never happen.

 

[TonySantiago]

I have to play devil's advocate here.

The Pulse 87 beg-a-thon was merely a misguided publicity stunt.

All it proved is that x amount of dance fans are willing to donate money to keep the station on air. However,those x amount of fans are a tiny drop of the NY market. It reminds me off certain pirate stations of the past who pleaded with their listeners to donate money to fight the FCC legally. It's a ploy for sympathy and I think you are capable of realizing that.

In fact, I think you have become a very convenient pawn for Pulse 87 to generate publicity on these boards and elsewhere.You are great for riling up the the dance troops for the cause but it's time to abandon ship!!

You're right Morpheux. Yeah, you are. :-[

Sure, I did my part in contributing to the station when the beg-a-thon happened. Yet the day it was pulled, while everyone was cheering that the station was still on the air, I may have been one of the few that wondered "what the..." . A lot of questions went unanswered and they NEEDED to be. That is why I had posted on another board on an open letter that Pulse COULD NOT DO THIS AGAIN. And in that sense, I felt that I was taken advantage of because of the efforts of the "coalition". People were seeking ME out for answers and I couldn't tell them because I didn't know. Nor was it my responsibility TO be the one to say this because I don't work at Pulse.

So yeah, in that sense I do see the reality of this and I'm already working on Plan "B" to see what we can do to get another terrestrial station to do the CURRENT dance format. I can say this because I don't want others speaking for me in that sense...I AM NOT TARGETING ANY SPECIFIC STATION at this time. NOW has been with their format for the past couple of months so I know they're not going to flip anytime soon despite the ratings there.

At this point, for those loving Pulse, enjoy it . That's all I can say.

 

[TonySantiago]

The purist do have a role in the reason dance doesnt thrive. At the Winter Music Conference 3 years ago, I went to a panel that had 4 of the big dance producers/djs in the world on it. They all said Madonna was not a dance artist. They also said Justin Timberlake's album wasnt dance. They also said the samething about Rihanna. This is one of the reasons the dance community has issues being accepted in the states. Don't you think a Kim Sozzi wants to be known as a pop artist? The genre has killed itself time and time again. Don't blame soundscan. Every other genre has dealt with this. We make too many excuses as to why dance music hasnt been more successful. We also have too many so called artists that thing they are bigger than they actually are. There will be a few of them down in AC. We also have to stop blaming something that happened in 1976.

I give Joel all the credit in the world, I think he did a great job programming the station. Pulse's problem wasnt the music it was the business side of the model. They jumped the gun on trying to expand but just looking at everything I have read about their current financial situation, how can you expand, when you cant pay the bills? It doesnt matter where on the dial they are, there are a ton of non-coms that make more than the commercial stations.

First off...it was 1979, but let's get at this.

Madonna had ALWAYS been a dance music artist in my opinion that had blown up commercially. She came out at the right time with MTV rising up, had the looks, charisma and music that CHR was looking for. For producers to say she isn't dance? There I totally disagree. But lets call it out....there may have been aspects of Justin & Rihanna's track that are dance and I will accept the remixes as thus. But how they came out originally (pop & R&B respectively) is the perception. If they came out as dance artists on the go (like a Chris Willis for example), then you would see the acceptance on that part come out on JT and R. The fact that they didn't, even though the remixes WERE dance, is where you have the issue and debate amongst the fans. Kim Sozzi? She came out as a dance music artist from the get go. Even if she becomes as large of a name as Madonna with large CHR airplay, she will always be a dance artist in my mind and others should acknowledge that. So in part, I do agree with you but it's really a matter of the artist "roots" that come to play here.

Yeah, all genres dealt with SoundScan. And despite what may appear to be an industry "drop off", rock is still strong from it, country music is still strong from it, hip-hop/R&B is still strong from it. So what happened with us?

And on Joel and the Pulse situation.....TOTAL AGREEMENT. Can't agree further. Yet the "pundits" will blame the dance format and not the mismanagement.