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ABC CITADEL AM STATIONS SUSPEND NIGHTTIME IBOC

Hey Doctor Z!

Nice of hear from you after all those silly Dodge commericals! What an honor! Dr. Z right here on our little 'ol board here...

(kidding)

It's good yah?

:D

I'm sure glad to see ABC/Cit. doing the right thing and turning off the interference generators at night. Looks like it's time to consider doing what should have been done before and move AM's digital to 26MHz.
 
paul vincent zecchino said:
Dear Clouseau -

I know what I wrote. It's putrid, churlish, adolescent, not to mention bilious, disjoint, rambling, and as well, crepuscular. Without fail, the drivel I belch-up never fails to horrify me upon subsequent readings. So, uh, why you parrot selected silly words?
Because words mean things and reflect upon creditability. And we love yours. :) Really we do...

Is that the best you can do? Aw, you need to get more fun out of life.

Here's a thought. Why do "I" need more fun. I'm happy just "Hangin' out" here.

'Within five years, people won't ask for an HD radio, sez an iBLOC cheasze, 'all radios will be HD'. Wow! Whew! Mustn't judge too harshly, though, at least he has it half right!

Defining what you are trying to say is FAR more challenging than the NYT crossword.

THAT'S why we love you. :)

Clouseau
 
paul vincent zecchino said:
...Listeners won't discard analog sets for HD. They say there's nothing in it for them. And yes, despite absurd, vehement, overblown denials, citizens know jamming when they hear it.

KronyKasters, hire back the talent you so callously fired during your gluttonous 90s buying binge. Perhaps they'll still have you. Air compelling programs. Listeners may yet return.

More 'work' on iBLOC?... Fix what? The HD gang pig-sawed digital 'wings' onto good clean analog signals. The problem wasn't modulation. It was content - or lack thereof...

Dr. Paul Vincent Zecchino
Manasota Key, Florida
02 October, 2007

MEGA-DITTOS!!! That was DELICIOUS, Doctor!

...And I thought [according to the “HD Radio” enthusiasts]; ONLY “Low power broadcasters, DXers, and a few webcasters” – plus guys with “old analog hands;) read, posted, and disliked IBOC here. Then there’s Dr. Z, and what is he? OH [I forgot] – ANGRY and BITTER ::)

[btw]... THANKS CITADEL!!! I can hear WSB again! ...From ONE state over! Sounds like a BIG-TIME DX to me :D
 
"If the night problems with HD (AM) are not resolved....it does not bode well for AM??"

The night problems with HD CAN'T be resolved, unless the NAB/iBiquity propose to revise the laws of physics.
Propagation characteristics of medium wave are not subject to legislative action or engineering upgrades. Noise is noise and interference is interference. Any competent engineer knows that a piece of equipment showing only a 28 db suppression of noise is what you'd call "a malfunctioning piece of equipment."

If the injection level for digital is lowered to reduce interference, it will further compromise the ability of receivers to lock onto HD. It barely works as it is; some 50kw IBOC-AM stations are producing reliable HD locks on home receivers extending barely 15 miles. If you increase the digital, the analog interference increases. The analog bandwidth has already been reduced to a barely-acceptable level (some would argue it's gone too far already) so more bandwidth can't be "borrowed" from analog.

Citadel has diplomatically said the HD night shutoff has been made while "iBiquity works on reducing adjacent-channel interference" which is akin to "you must now....cut down the tallest tree in the forest.....WITH A HERRING!!!" Monty-Python style. If it was as simple as tinkering with the system this would have been done before nighttime HD was tried. The September 14th Experiment was just a desperate, hail-Mary attempt to conclusively answer the question to which everyone (with any sense) already knew the answer: "Hey, maybe the interference won't be as bad as everyone predicts!"

Gee. Heap big surprise. It's actually WORSE.
 
Well, finally somebody woke up! My congratulations to the engineering moguls at ABC-Citadel who have gone out on a limb and said to the cartel, "enough is enough" (at least for now).

musiconradio.com asked:

does AM just quietly fade into the sunset?

Gosh I hope so! Only time will tell.

DavidEduardo suggested:

If the night problems with HD are not resolved, many owners who were hoping for an AM resurgence will be more motivated to sell and dedicate efforts to FM and newer media. It does not bode well for AM.

Nonsense. David, I think you and those "hoping owners" have been drinking the iBiquity koolaid for a bit too long. AM will go on just fine without all that analog interference. Are you going to tell me that you have finally admitted that there are problems? This AM HD system should never have seen the light of day. It is not nice to raise the hopes of people when that hope is based on a bad system. Everyone knew what would happen when these noise generators got lit up at night. The broadcasting industry was sold a bill of goods. But the engineers all knew this and kept their mouths shut because the corporate types have too much money and pride in this invested. This is going to end up being a big problem for iBiquity. All I can say is that they'd better get that IPO going before everybody finally figures it out! Right about now I think its CEO is wincing just a bit.

But best of all, dumber than a box of hair intoned:

Every engineer I knew said repeatedly, before the 9/14 effective date for nighttime operation, that whether or not nighttime HD really works would be proven in the next few months, as more stations turn it on at night. The postings I've seen stating that many stations have it on intermittently shows me that they're experimenting.

Indeed they are. But dumber, you are an engineer (and a good one at that!). You must have known what so many of us were saying which was that night time implementation of AM IBOC would be, well, "challenging" at the very best. My goodness this isn't rocket science. Hopefully, everybody who jumped on this bandwagon will take a good hard look at it, realize that it can never work well as it is presently engineered and abandon it.

Citadel is most likely dealing with, at least, two of their stations engaging in "mutually assured destruction" (WJR and WABC on first adjacents to each other) at night, so this is not a complete surprise.

Which just goes to show that truth can definitely be stranger than fiction. You can't make this stuff up! :D

It also wouldn't surprise me if CBS follows suit, seeing that they have three stations within 20 kHz of each other (WINS, KDKA and WBZ).

Gosh, now wouldn't THAT be a hoot! To all the staunch supporters of the AM HD system on this here message board (including my buddy R.F.), you are being very quiet! No doubt we would all like to hear what you think now.

Oh that's right. People like me made this board a joke and you folks are taking a break. I'm sorry, Lino. I'll try and be a better person in the future.
 
Don't you just hate it when Leonard Kahn is right on something?

I'm really curious to see how his system holds up at night-time? Does anybody know?
 
JohnnyElectron said:
Don't you just hate it when Leonard Kahn is right on something?

I'm really curious to see how his system holds up at night-time?  Does anybody know?

According to Leonard Kahn:

"...we guarantee you will be the best sounding and loudest station when you tune into your station with a normal car radio. And you will at least Double your day and night coverage..."

http://www.wrathofkahn.org/

I'd say that's a claim worth investigating.
 
Let me tell you guys something.

I know that belief in some of Leonard Kahn's stuff strikes many people, especially latter-day engineers, as being like belief in those deer-repellent whistles you glue on your car (which also apparently repel lions, baboons, pterodactyls and Bob Struble, since I haven't hit any those with my car recently either) but then there's the curious thing about Leonard's SymmetraPeak.

I'll be darned if the thing doesn't actually work.
 
DavidEduardo said:
musiconradio.com said:
So I guess the question is in 5 years when HD on FM goes mainstream or not(Just a guess) does AM just quietly fade into the sunset. Yes I love to DX too, but with more talk shows moving to FM, and AM quality getting worse, it is getting harder to be loyal to the AM band. For those who who are glad that nightime HD has been tabled, what solutions do you propose to clean up nighttime IBOC.

Well, yesterday we saw a sports AM in Detroit migrate to FM, so as this trend picks up, motivated by attracting more salable demos, AM will be left with religious, niche and ethnic stations.

If the night problems with HD are not resolved, many owners wo were hoping for an AM resurgence will be more motivated to sell and dedicate efforts to FM and newer media. It does not bode well for AM.

I'am glad to see someone of stature make this point. Amid all the gloating over what is probably a temporary setback which BTW affects only night operation on one select group of stations there seems to be a mass denial over what is actually happening to AM radio in the USA and most other countries for that matter.

Most of these people seem to ignore the water rising in their own backyards. I'll repeat a point: Here in market #1, with one exception, all of the sub-50K AM's are either religion, leased, or for the lucky ones, ethnic. some of the latter may actually have atleast a small listenership.

Three of the 50K's are vanity. All of the Am's have looming demographic problems.

Some here talk of "drinking the coolaid" -yet one could easily guess that their idea of an AM "solution" is patch-in the EMT, dust off the Audimax-es hire some pace jocks and exhume the career of Bill Drake just keep the faith Johnny and all will be well.

Reality: all AMs, even the currently sucessfull ones are on shaky ground and probably won't make the next decade in their current form.

It's true that AM may seem like a desparate, terminal patient going from one quack treatment to another (like the ones on your AM doc block infomercials) but the reality is that these owners can read the data and know what is happening to their investment.

"sage" Cal Stymes expostulated:

Gosh, now wouldn't THAT be a hoot! To all the staunch supporters of the AM HD system on this here message board (including my buddy R.F.), you are being very quiet! No doubt we would all like to hear what you think now.

Oh that's right. People like me made this board a joke and you folks are taking a break. I'm sorry, Lino. I'll try and be a better person in the future.

Again, don't break out the pinatas (and Geritol) this pertains to only certain stations. The realities that led to this haven't changed, pressure is still on to find a solution to AM's "dimming flame".

Heckle-on bro....

Lino
 
LinoNYC said:
Reality: all AMs, even the currently sucessfull ones are on shaky ground and probably won't make the next decade in their current form.

Probably the best thing for AM, at least in the smaller markets, would be to apply the Canadian Solution. Move them to the FM band! To make room, all FM translators should be delicensed and shut down and the FM spacing rules could probably be revised to allow stations on second-adjacent channels in the same market. This situation already exists in the noncommercial band (88-92 MHz) in New Jersey and the New York metropolitan area.

Perhaps a few AM frequencies could be kept active with 50, 100, or even 500 kW flamethrowers to cover "white areas" of the country that are too sparsely populated to support local FM stations. With congestion relieved, the analog bandwidth could be opened up a little...although the receivers would need to be improved. (The GE Superradio was an excellent AM receiver.) Of course, programming would have to be improved. People don't want to hear a steady diet of syndicated talk, infomercials for cure-all laxatives and dubious real estate deals, and those hellfire and brimstone preachers who smile sweetly while conning lonely old ladies out of their life savings. Even if AM IBOC worked well, I certainly wouldn't buy an expensive new radio to hear this crap! (And, no, I will never forgive Michael Bloomberg for killing my beloved WNEW, nor will I forgive the suits at Westwood One for making WNEW, a New York institution, gravely ill!)
 
"Someone of stature??" Who would THAT be??

One select group? Yeah, just all the former ABC/now Citadel major market flamethrowers, the "showcase" operations for HD-AM. Just the ones that share the same adjacent-channel problem that plague CBS and other major groups. Just a little 66-station group held up as poster-stations for 24-hour HD-AM implementation.

And, yeah, just a "temporary setback," until the earlier of either (a) the laws of physics, psychoacoustics and medium-wave propagation are revised by corporate-suit crack-smoking engineer wannabes, or (b) iBiquity and the NAB figure out how to mass-hypnotize the AM listening public into accepting obnoxious analog noise, lousy HD-AM coverage, annoying IBOC artifacting and impossible-to-buy, low-functioning receivers at laughable prices.
 
k2pg said:
LinoNYC said:
Reality: all AMs, even the currently sucessfull ones are on shaky ground and probably won't make the next decade in their current form.

Probably the best thing for AM, at least in the smaller markets, would be to apply the Canadian Solution. Move them to the FM band! To make room, all FM translators should be delicensed and shut down and the FM spacing rules could probably be revised to allow stations on second-adjacent channels in the same market. This situation already exists in the noncommercial band (88-92 MHz) in New Jersey and the New York metropolitan area.

Perhaps a few AM frequencies could be kept active with 50, 100, or even 500 kW flamethrowers to cover "white areas" of the country that are too sparsely populated to support local FM stations. With congestion relieved, the analog bandwidth could be opened up a little...although the receivers would need to be improved. (The GE Superradio was an excellent AM receiver.) Of course, programming would have to be improved. People don't want to hear a steady diet of syndicated talk, infomercials for cure-all laxatives and dubious real estate deals, and those hellfire and brimstone preachers who smile sweetly while conning lonely old ladies out of their life savings. Even if AM IBOC worked well, I certainly wouldn't buy an expensive new radio to hear this crap! (And, no, I will never forgive Michael Bloomberg for killing my beloved WNEW, nor will I forgive the suits at Westwood One for making WNEW, a New York institution, gravely ill!)

While I mostly agree with what you say, I don't agree that shutting down all existing translators would be a good idea, or that it is something that could even be done without HUGE political ramifications. Considering who owns most of them, religious organizations, it simply won't happen. Most politicians I've ever seen do not want to ruffle the feathers of any religious group. The argument just gets too sticky and could result in unpleasant voter revolt. Besides, it is hard to take away something once it is given.

I would be in favor of no new translators, dumping the back-log of existing translator applications and using the spectrum for local radio, be that AM's migrating to 250 watt LPFM's, new LPFM allocations or whatever. I'd also like to see existing translators be required to originate at least some programming from studios located within 100-150 miles of the translator. If they are simply repeating a signal from hundreds of miles away in Twin Falls, Tupelo or some other distant location, they should be required to insert some local content in the programming day of each translator.
 
Savage said:
And, yeah, just a "temporary setback," until the earlier of either (a) the laws of physics, psychoacoustics and medium-wave propagation are revised by corporate-suit crack-smoking engineer wannabes, or (b) iBiquity and the NAB figure out how to mass-hypnotize the AM listening public into accepting obnoxious analog noise, lousy HD-AM coverage, annoying IBOC artifacting and impossible-to-buy, low-functioning receivers at laughable prices.

Boy talk about coolaid, that last paragraph reads just like ol' Sup

I read a report back in spring 03 that outlined to likely problems with this system, it implied that iboc would not be practical for all AM's. I wrote, in another forum that it looked like this would be yet another handicap for the small stations that for one reason or another could not implement iboc.

It's nothing new here many couldn't even run C-Quam.

The heart of my earlier remarks is the overall problem of aging and decling listenership -something you choose to ignore.

No problem, stations with a half-share are destined to "get religion" anyway.

Lino
 
Hey, Lino, as long as we're using the phrase "choosing to ignore" and YOU'RE once again choosing to nastily criticize my station's audience share instead of advancing a substantive argument:

YOU are choosing to ignore that the Citadel shutdown has nothing to do with "IBOC may not be practical for all AMs," with the obvious implication being lower-power stations won't be able to keep up with the ever-trendsetting HD-AM pack. The nighttime HD-AM problem - something YOU are choosing to ignore - is what prompted these major, big-signal, major market stations to turn IBOC off in self interest. WABC, WSB and WJR were simply generating unacceptable levels of mutual interference. The stations - not iBiquity or myopic radio blogosphere executives - saw the obvious threat and did the only prudent and sane thing to do.

So, c'mon, Lino, give it up. Share it with the other posters and readers here:

Precisely what is the fix you envision that will make HD-AM actually work - at night, under real-world listening conditions, without harmful adjacent interference?

We're all waiting for your plan.
 
LinoNYC said:
Amid all the gloating over what is probably a temporary setback which BTW affects only night operation on one select group of stations there seems to be a mass denial over what is actually happening to AM radio in the USA and most other countries for that matter...All of the Am's have looming demographic problems.

No one's denying that AM stations in general have severe and increasing demographic problems. No one can reasonably expect that a medium whose average user is over 50, and which is adding precious few users in the lower age brackets, is going to survive for very long. However, the solution is NOT to make those stations harder to receive and subject them to more interference.

On an engineering remailer I subscribe to, it was posted that on Monday night (before Citadel engineering's directive came down), WJR had their HD off and WABC had theirs on...and there were multiple reports of interference within WJR's nighttime interference-free contour from WABC's HD carriers. Reports like this are, unfortunately, the whole ball game. Reduce the digital carrier levels to the point where they won't spill into first adjacents, and you kill whatever chance you had of obtaining even marginal coverage within your own NIF contour.

But, here we are, having a techincal discussion about all of this. The average listener won't care about the engineering aspects. All he'll know is that there's a strange and annoying noise in what used to be a reasonably clear signal. He may or may not complain to the station, but if it goes on for too long he'll be gone. Further erosion of AM's core demo is also not what it needs right now.
 
dumber than a box of hair said:
LinoNYC said:
Amid all the gloating over what is probably a temporary setback which BTW affects only night operation on one select group of stations there seems to be a mass denial over what is actually happening to AM radio in the USA and most other countries for that matter...All of the Am's have looming demographic problems.

No one's denying that AM stations in general have severe and increasing demographic problems. No one can reasonably expect that a medium whose average user is over 50, and which is adding precious few users in the lower age brackets, is going to survive for very long. However, the solution is NOT to make those stations harder to receive and subject them to more interference.

On an engineering remailer I subscribe to, it was posted that on Monday night (before Citadel engineering's directive came down), WJR had their HD off and WABC had theirs on...and there were multiple reports of interference within WJR's nighttime interference-free contour from WABC's HD carriers. Reports like this are, unfortunately, the whole ball game. Reduce the digital carrier levels to the point where they won't spill into first adjacents, and you kill whatever chance you had of obtaining even marginal coverage within your own NIF contour.

But, here we are, having a techincal discussion about all of this. The average listener won't care about the engineering aspects. All he'll know is that there's a strange and annoying noise in what used to be a reasonably clear signal. He may or may not complain to the station, but if it goes on for too long he'll be gone. Further erosion of AM's core demo is also not what it needs right now.

Further confirmation of what I said a long time ago, this scheme was not envisioned by anyone who ever designed, built, engineered, operated, or listened to analog mediumwave broadcast. They are computer people who couldn't begin to tell what a Smith chart does,
or why it might make the mediumwave version of their plan unworkable. Well, I sure wish I were a fly on the wall to hear how they've discovered propogation distorts modulation!

This is old news, I'm happy ibiquity is finally learning this.

Stick with the FM version, guys.
 
Savage said:
So, c'mon, Lino, give it up. Share it with the other posters and readers here:

Precisely what is the fix you envision that will make HD-AM actually work - at night, under real-world listening conditions, without harmful adjacent interference?

We're all waiting for your plan.

On the contrary, the onus is on the opponentsof this system to come forth with a viable solution to AM's unsustainable condition.

My guess is you don't have one. What I suspect is that is that in 3-5 years, long after you have stopped posting here you'll sell out to one (or a group) of the churches that already rent time there.

Please understand, I don't say this with any relish or vengence, we don't know each other and are unlikely to ever meet, what I have outlined is occuring on a daily basis on AM's throught the country.

Your previous statements of having spent (I believe) 400K on power upgrades to your station, would this money not have been better spent on aquiring an FM slot?
Were none available?

If you can sustain an income from your operation, more power to you I know first-hand how great it is to work for yourself. I also know what a dying business looks like.

Lino
 
dumber than a box of hair said:
LinoNYC said:
Amid all the gloating over what is probably a temporary setback which BTW affects only night operation on one select group of stations there seems to be a mass denial over what is actually happening to AM radio in the USA and most other countries for that matter...All of the Am's have looming demographic problems.

No one's denying that AM stations in general have severe and increasing demographic problems. No one can reasonably expect that a medium whose average user is over 50, and which is adding precious few users in the lower age brackets, is going to survive for very long. However, the solution is NOT to make those stations harder to receive and subject them to more interference.

On an engineering remailer I subscribe to, it was posted that on Monday night (before Citadel engineering's directive came down), WJR had their HD off and WABC had theirs on...and there were multiple reports of interference within WJR's nighttime interference-free contour from WABC's HD carriers. Reports like this are, unfortunately, the whole ball game. Reduce the digital carrier levels to the point where they won't spill into first adjacents, and you kill whatever chance you had of obtaining even marginal coverage within your own NIF contour.

But, here we are, having a techincal discussion about all of this. The average listener won't care about the engineering aspects. All he'll know is that there's a strange and annoying noise in what used to be a reasonably clear signal. He may or may not complain to the station, but if it goes on for too long he'll be gone. Further erosion of AM's core demo is also not what it needs right now.

I understand both yours and your company's views on this but you left the issue of unsustainable demos dangling.....It sounds like your're saying " when we're done here turn off the transmitter and lock the door behind you".

Three and a half years ago I asked someone that I correspond with out at Quincy: what if the adjacent channel problem is insoluable? He and his company's position is that stations using AM iboc may have to accept curtailment of servive area back to within their primary contour in exchange for a degree of sonic parity with FM.

I've used both AM-FM iboc for almost a year now and i'am well familiar with it's limitations, especially in using a first generation receiver, however the improvements in terms of multipath on FM and response/sn for AM are undeniable. I've demonstrated them here repeatedly. It isn't flawless but is does work.

Regards, Lino
 
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