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ABC CITADEL AM STATIONS SUSPEND NIGHTTIME IBOC

You know I hate to harsh everyones buzz here, but I think this goes back once again to concerns regarding DXing, listening via skip, or even out of market fringe listening. So let's see here...I own a AM station with increasing competition and losing ground from FM, I-Pods, the Internet, etc. Now I can increase my coverage area, improve the audio frequency response and greatly improve signal to noise, and potentially turn off my analog portion someday thus finally competing with FM...Hmmm...that's a no-brainer. Especially now that Ford/Visteon announced last week that many of their car radios will finally be equipped with the Ibquity modems. THAT my friends changes the landscape! Would I give a rats-arse about someone who will never visit my advertisers? No! DXing is a hobby for a very small minority. What do I care whether the analog noise floor outside of my market goes up??

Okay I have my Kevlar suit on, bring it!
 
Since no one is buying HD radios, it won't do anything for your AM station. You won't improve your audio frequency response for the 99+% of your listeners who are listening in analog, you will make it worse as long as you keep broadcasting in the analog-digital mode. And that will be for many, many years.

Even if you can turn off your analog someday, you won't compete very well with FM. The signal is digital... it's either there 100% or it's gone. AM being AM is still subject to interference and with every lightning bolt, your digital signal goes to zero for a few seconds. It won't be under the static like analog, it will be gone.

Ford didn't announce many of their cars would be equipped with HD radios. They said it would be an "after market" option... installed by the dealer... for an extra $250 after you've already paid for the radio in the car that came from the factory, which the dealer will take out. I'd be surprised if 5% of new Fords will end up with HD radios. Do the math... 5% of new Fords, Fords aren't selling too well these days, average vehicle on the road is probably ten years old... equals an insignificant number of HD radios in vehicles any time soon.

HD may work for FM (if people buy the radios, which they're not) but it's a lost cause on AM. You can't change the laws of physics.

You might not care if the analog noise floor outside your market goes up, but it will also go up in your market from HD stations out of town.
 
What you should care about is the fact that you would be causing interference to another station in it's local listening area, and infringing on that station's owner's right to a living. You should also care about the fact that there IS a treaty known as NARBA, and 2 of the other countries in that agreement are being interfered with. HD radios ARE NOT available in Canada, yet here, we recieve interference from American stations running IBOC. We can't tune into these stations with HD radios and listen to them in HD. Local stations are having serious interference issues from a FOREIGN entity. I've stateed before in other posts, a station in my own city (50,000 watts) has had serious signal degredation from a station that's 10 hours away. The interference is a violation of NARBA and we're forced to just DEAL WITH IT? As an owner how would you really feel if you were receiving calls from now former listners saying they can't hear you anymore. Enough of them will make a difference to your bottom line. IBOC does not give you any better audio, and new technology doesn't draw in the listeners if they weren't attracted to the programming. A clean sounding station is always nice, but what any owner should do, is make sure they have the BEST SOUNDING station they can on their respective band along with the BEST POSSIBLE programming, and they should do so without blowing other stations off the dial, either local or distant. I'm not trying to attack you. I'm just trying to make you aware of how an average listener would feel. As a Canadian (and I think Mexicans would agree) we have the right to listen to our own stations without the interference from a foreign station using technology that's not available to us. I really wanted IBOC to work. Believe me, when I heard about the technology being developed, I was hoping for something that would bring go0d music back to the AM dial and would make AM sound go0d, and for something that would work for both AM AND FM, and would drastically improve both, while still giving us the distance we've always had on AM with improved sound, and get rid of the annoying multipath and dropouts of FM. I would have liked to see AM stereo become mandatory and improved receivers also been mandatory.
 
mimo said:
What you should care about is the fact that you would be causing interference to another station in it's local listening area, and infringing on that station's owner's right to a living. You should also care about the fact that there IS a treaty known as NARBA, and 2 of the other countries in that agreement are being interfered with. HD radios ARE NOT available in Canada, yet here, we recieve interference from American stations running IBOC. We can't tune into these stations with HD radios and listen to them in HD. Local stations are having serious interference issues from a FOREIGN entity. I've stateed before in other posts, a station in my own city (50,000 watts) has had serious signal degredation from a station that's 10 hours away. The interference is a violation of NARBA and we're forced to just DEAL WITH IT? As an owner how would you really feel if you were receiving calls from now former listners saying they can't hear you anymore. Enough of them will make a difference to your bottom line. IBOC does not give you any better audio, and new technology doesn't draw in the listeners if they weren't attracted to the programming. A clean sounding station is always nice, but what any owner should do, is make sure they have the BEST SOUNDING station they can on their respective band along with the BEST POSSIBLE programming, and they should do so without blowing other stations off the dial, either local or distant. I'm not trying to attack you. I'm just trying to make you aware of how an average listener would feel. As a Canadian (and I think Mexicans would agree) we have the right to listen to our own stations without the interference from a foreign station using technology that's not available to us. I really wanted IBOC to work. Believe me, when I heard about the technology being developed, I was hoping for something that would bring go0d music back to the AM dial and would make AM sound go0d, and for something that would work for both AM AND FM, and would drastically improve both, while still giving us the distance we've always had on AM with improved sound, and get rid of the annoying multipath and dropouts of FM. I would have liked to see AM stereo become mandatory and improved receivers also been mandatory.

It's interesting that you use the term in the first line "fact". You obviously haven't been involved in testing of the system within a market as I was, nor do I suspect you have any experience in receiving in-market interference that makes listening difficult between stations inside a DMA, because it really doesn't exist. I suspect you are merely parroting the claims of others on this board that probably don't even own a IBOC radio. Is there cumulative noise between stations both running IBOC? Sure, but who cares other than a handfull of distance listeners that don't spend money in the market anyway? Now if one is using a radio with a wider frequency response, (GE Superradio) attempting to listen to a weaker adjacent station while in wide-band mode, then sure you'll hear hiss! But there is a fix for that, it's called narrow band mode! See how simple that is??

Look, AM listening is dying.. The old line that "everytime you see a funeral procession, there goes another AM listener", hold true. AM Stereo was a failure for whatever opinion you care to subscribe to. The fact remains that the vast majority of listeners didn't care about AM Stereo,(I still have a factory AM Stereo capable radio in my Jeep), and neither C-Quam, Quasi-Quam, nor Kahn ISB would fix the terrestrial noise problem on the band created by computer monitors, noisy pole-hogs, plasma TV's, and switching power supplies on more than 50% of the common household devices in your home today. The enemy for Medium Wave transmission is modern comsumer devices, poorly designed and maintained transmission systems, tunnels, steel overpasses, and consumer interest. And the claims that the audio on the digital stream of a AM or FM IBOC decoded signal is somehow inferior to a demodulated amplititude modulated signal is like someone claiming a Ford Model T is easier to drive than a 2007 Lexus.
 
Kelly said:
It's interesting that you use the term in the first line "fact". You obviously haven't been involved in testing of the system within a market as I was, nor do I suspect you have any experience in receiving in-market interference that makes listening difficult between stations inside a DMA, because it really doesn't exist. I suspect you are merely parroting the claims of others on this board that probably don't even own a IBOC radio. Is there cumulative noise between stations both running IBOC? Sure, but who cares other than a handfull of distance listeners that don't spend money in the market anyway? Now if one is using a radio with a wider frequency response, (GE Superradio) attempting to listen to a weaker adjacent station while in wide-band mode, then sure you'll hear hiss! But there is a fix for that, it's called narrow band mode! See how simple that is??

Except for one problem: the digital sidebands are on adjacent channels to the analog, you can't narrow-band out a signal on that same frequency. I know that DXers are a tiny minority, but you have to understand that the band is still more than a bunch of 50,000 watt flamethrowers - there are waaay too many smaller stations whose nighttime local listening area is basically DX because of low power levels and high noise floor. Those small town stations with less than 100 watts at night are the ones I am worried about, because it doesn't take much to crash that party "in market". Heck, I've heard WBBM's sidebands causing noticeable interference to WMC-AM in Memphis, while I was still in the Memphis metro and well within their otherwise solid interference free signal. (I was in Hernando, Ms, directly in the lobe they throw south at night with 5,000 watts from a site about 25 miles from the TX site.)

Kelly said:
Look, AM listening is dying.. The old line that "everytime you see a funeral procession, there goes another AM listener", hold true. AM Stereo was a failure for whatever opinion you care to subscribe to. The fact remains that the vast majority of listeners didn't care about AM Stereo,(I still have a factory AM Stereo capable radio in my Jeep), and neither C-Quam, Quasi-Quam, nor Kahn ISB would fix the terrestrial noise problem on the band created by computer monitors, noisy pole-hogs, plasma TV's, and switching power supplies on more than 50% of the common household devices in your home today. The enemy for Medium Wave transmission is modern comsumer devices, poorly designed and maintained transmission systems, tunnels, steel overpasses, and consumer interest. And the claims that the audio on the digital stream of a AM or FM IBOC decoded signal is somehow inferior to a demodulated amplititude modulated signal is like someone claiming a Ford Model T is easier to drive than a 2007 Lexus.

Unfortunately, you are totally correct about this. With all the noise problems AM stations have to fight, how is digital supposed to do any better? Reports on this board and others has confirmed that distant lightning strikes and underpasses kill the digital signal... And that's during the day, in the DMA of some 50,000 watters! NO digital signal seems inferior to staticy but listenable analog, if you ask me. What would happen if these stations went all digital? That's a lot of coverage gaps in the average city, ones listeners will grumble about.

It seems like this issue could have been abated in several ways, but here's an idea... Why don't we shut off the AM IBOC system on all these stations until the HD receivers are in 30-40% of households/cars/hands? By then, stations could decide to simply go all digital at increased power and eliminate a lot of the problems we face now.
 
Part of the AM HD digital signal (noise) is -26db directly under the 0 to 5kHz analog modulation of the AM HD station, and is especially objectionable with more signal and the closer you get to the HD transmitting station.

1- How is that DX?
2- What does that have to do with DXers?
3- How would narrowing the bandwidth on an analog radio eliminate this digital noise, without also eliminating the analog modulation?

The closer you get to an AM HD stations transmitter the more channels are obscured by loud digital hiss.

See questions 1 and 2 above.

When adjacent channel digital noise from an AM HD station is loud and annoying when listening within the 1mV/m daytime groundwave coverage of a first adjacent AM station (victim) I call that interference or jamming. You call that DX. ::)
 
A couple of things: the figure frequently quoted is that the digital sidebands on either side of the HD-AM carrier are -28 dBc. This is true in the individual sense, but there are 25 digital carriers in the passband of an adjacent-channel AM station, and the real-world way to measure the impact is to ADD the noise each contributes. When represented this way - the way the analog receiver detects the adjacent channel - the practical noise level is only -16 dBc! And that's STEADY-STATE. If you look at it on a spectrum analyzer it's a miracle any analog signal is perceptible through the digital hash at all.

mimo, be sure the management at your station complains to Industry Canada. I'd give you the contact data for the FCC Enforcement Bureau but as a Canadian you don't have standing (unfortunately.)
 
Kelly said:
mimo said:
What you should care about is the fact that you would be causing interference to another station in it's local listening area, and infringing on that station's owner's right to a living. You should also care about the fact that there IS a treaty known as NARBA, and 2 of the other countries in that agreement are being interfered with. HD radios ARE NOT available in Canada, yet here, we recieve interference from American stations running IBOC. We can't tune into these stations with HD radios and listen to them in HD. Local stations are having serious interference issues from a FOREIGN entity. I've stateed before in other posts, a station in my own city (50,000 watts) has had serious signal degredation from a station that's 10 hours away. The interference is a violation of NARBA and we're forced to just DEAL WITH IT? As an owner how would you really feel if you were receiving calls from now former listners saying they can't hear you anymore. Enough of them will make a difference to your bottom line. IBOC does not give you any better audio, and new technology doesn't draw in the listeners if they weren't attracted to the programming. A clean sounding station is always nice, but what any owner should do, is make sure they have the BEST SOUNDING station they can on their respective band along with the BEST POSSIBLE programming, and they should do so without blowing other stations off the dial, either local or distant. I'm not trying to attack you. I'm just trying to make you aware of how an average listener would feel. As a Canadian (and I think Mexicans would agree) we have the right to listen to our own stations without the interference from a foreign station using technology that's not available to us. I really wanted IBOC to work. Believe me, when I heard about the technology being developed, I was hoping for something that would bring go0d music back to the AM dial and would make AM sound go0d, and for something that would work for both AM AND FM, and would drastically improve both, while still giving us the distance we've always had on AM with improved sound, and get rid of the annoying multipath and dropouts of FM. I would have liked to see AM stereo become mandatory and improved receivers also been mandatory.

It's interesting that you use the term in the first line "fact". You obviously haven't been involved in testing of the system within a market as I was, nor do I suspect you have any experience in receiving in-market interference that makes listening difficult between stations inside a DMA, because it really doesn't exist. I suspect you are merely parroting the claims of others on this board that probably don't even own a IBOC radio. Is there cumulative noise between stations both running IBOC? Sure, but who cares other than a handfull of distance listeners that don't spend money in the market anyway? Now if one is using a radio with a wider frequency response, (GE Superradio) attempting to listen to a weaker adjacent station while in wide-band mode, then sure you'll hear hiss! But there is a fix for that, it's called narrow band mode! See how simple that is??

Look, AM listening is dying.. The old line that "everytime you see a funeral procession, there goes another AM listener", hold true. AM Stereo was a failure for whatever opinion you care to subscribe to. The fact remains that the vast majority of listeners didn't care about AM Stereo,(I still have a factory AM Stereo capable radio in my Jeep), and neither C-Quam, Quasi-Quam, nor Kahn ISB would fix the terrestrial noise problem on the band created by computer monitors, noisy pole-hogs, plasma TV's, and switching power supplies on more than 50% of the common household devices in your home today. The enemy for Medium Wave transmission is modern comsumer devices, poorly designed and maintained transmission systems, tunnels, steel overpasses, and consumer interest. And the claims that the audio on the digital stream of a AM or FM IBOC decoded signal is somehow inferior to a demodulated amplititude modulated signal is like someone claiming a Ford Model T is easier to drive than a 2007 Lexus.

You didn't quite read what I posted. I mentioned I live in Canada, where there are NO HD RADIOS AVAILABLE...in other words, I can't go down to the store and buy them. We don't use the system up here. So How could I possibly be involved in any tests? The interference I'm talking about is an adjacent channel 10 hours away making a LOCAL 50,000 watt signal unlistenable in IT'S CITY OF LICENSE, and I live in a city of 1.1 million people. The station isn't "dying" either, and it does have a go0d sized audience of people in their 20's and 30's, I happen to be one of them. I wanted HD to work. I also mentioned that, sadly it has only hurt my ability to listen to stations that serve my market. There are 2 stations from Nearby Montreal that also are protected where I live, both day and night, since Citadel has shut off it's Iboc, one of them is listenable at night again. The other is hit and miss. I have heard the interferece myself. How is that not having any experience in receiving any. When a LOCAL 50 thousand watt station cannot be heard clearly without the IBOC interference, and that interference is being caused by a station that in ANOTHER COUNTRY 10 hours away, it's inexcusable. I've called the station and they have received calls about the noise. Night time is important to the station because of the play by play of the 2 local hockey teams it covers, and they draw huge numbers during those games. That interference IS fact not fiction. I don't hear interference on that station in the daytime, no matter how much interference causing devices I run at once. A whole country is being subject to interference by a system it can't experience. That's my complaint. I would suggest re-reading what I posted, I quoted it, and you'll see that I had said I wanted the system to work I was lo0king forward to it. But there's a reason the CRTC won't authorise it for AM, and it's because of the interference.

I have been communicating with Barry McLarnon (SP?) via email, and he's been working with the station in question and has also been involved in some high profile meetings with Canadian broadcasters over this very topic. I think they are doing some field tests regarding the interference before they make their case to Industry Canada. I may be wrong but I believe Barry has been in some meetings with them.
 
I should also mention that I have heard clips of station in HD on the internet, that's the closest I can come to hearing what it sounds like, with a very go0d pair of headphones so I catch everything. I didn't find the audio to be that much better than the boombox that sits on my nightable. While not stereo, it does have pretty decent sound on AM. I do have a question about HD FM. How does it handle against listening to a local FM station that get bled over by another 2 or 3 stations because you live to0 close to their transmitters?
 
jh said:
Since no one is buying HD radios, it won't do anything for your AM station. You won't improve your audio frequency response for the 99+% of your listeners who are listening in analog, you will make it worse as long as you keep broadcasting in the analog-digital mode. And that will be for many, many years.
Yes please listen to us,WE KNOW WHATS BEST FOR YOUR STATIONS!!!!!

DROP THIS GO BACK TO REG ANALOG AND START SOUNDING GOOD AGAIN FOR THE 99.9% OF PEOPLE LISTENING!
 
Kelly said:
You know I hate to harsh everyones buzz here, but I think this goes back once again to concerns regarding DXing, listening via skip, or even out of market fringe listening. So let's see here...I own a AM station with increasing competition and losing ground from FM, I-Pods, the Internet, etc. Now I can increase my coverage area, improve the audio frequency response and greatly improve signal to noise, and potentially turn off my analog portion someday thus finally competing with FM...Hmmm...that's a no-brainer. Especially now that Ford/Visteon announced last week that many of their car radios will finally be equipped with the Ibquity modems. THAT my friends changes the landscape! Would I give a rats-arse about someone who will never visit my advertisers? No! DXing is a hobby for a very small minority. What do I care whether the analog noise floor outside of my market goes up??

Okay I have my Kevlar suit on, bring it!

You fried right through that Kevlar all on your own.

1) It's not DXers whose complaints we're talking about. It's station owners, whose stations are being interfered with within their own nighttime interference-free contours. You don't light up carriers on adjacent frequencies and pretend they will do no harm during nighttime propagation conditions.

2) Ford announced no such thing. The HD radios are a dealer-installed option...and according to a long-time friend who also runs a Ford dealership, this is an off-the radar non-starter.

No one's denying that AM has severe and increasing problems drawing listeners. However, increasing interference between stations and effectively destroying the AM band is not the way to fix what ails it.
 
Play Freebird said:
I predicted that we would see some of this stuff in the Dayton flea market in less than five years, but the AM HD exciters may be showing up on eBay as soon as next week. Ten bucks would be a fair offer -- you might be able to re-use the power supply for a ham radio project.

Or that stuff could find its way to a third country, and, from there, to Castro's Cuba. The AM IBOC stuff would make dandy jamming stations for stuff that the Cuban government does not want its people to hear!
 
SUPERCASTER said:
Part of the AM HD digital signal (noise) is -26db directly under the 0 to 5kHz analog modulation of the AM HD station, and is especially objectionable with more signal and the closer you get to the HD transmitting station.

1- How is that DX?
2- What does that have to do with DXers?
3- How would narrowing the bandwidth on an analog radio eliminate this digital noise, without also eliminating the analog modulation?

The closer you get to an AM HD stations transmitter the more channels are obscured by loud digital hiss.

See questions 1 and 2 above.

When adjacent channel digital noise from an AM HD station is loud and annoying when listening within the 1mV/m daytime groundwave coverage of a first adjacent AM station (victim) I call that interference or jamming. You call that DX. ::)

ADDENDUM- Note digital HD hiss -26dBc directly under 0 to 5kHz analog audio of the transmitting AM HD station, proving the addition of HD digital signals degrades the AM HD host station's analog signal to noise ratio, not to mention cutting frequency response in half to accommodate the HD noisy digital sidebands.

http://topazdesigns.com/iboc/AM-IBOC-Spectrum-v3.jpg

Reference:
http://topazdesigns.com/iboc/AM-IBOC-Parameters.html
 
Kelly said:
Especially now that Ford/Visteon announced last week that many of their car radios will finally be equipped with the Ibquity modems. THAT my friends changes the landscape!


Box of hair said:
2) Ford announced no such thing. The HD radios are a dealer-installed option...and according to a long-time friend who also runs a Ford dealership, this is an off-the radar non-starter.

Isn't a "dealer installed option" anything anyone can bribe a dealer to install?

If I bribe a dealer to install a rumble seat does that mean it will become popular or standard equipment on most cars?

Of course not. Just more false claims from HD promoters.

No HD interference or complaints?

High quality from newer as yet to be discontinued HD radios?
Here is an owner's report on one of the newest HD radios:
 
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