Tom, you can't assume that you are typical. Clearly you aren't and many on this board aren't. The 37 year old woman getting the 3 kids ready for school is going to run for that button when you play stuff she doesn't know and like. If you want to do a pop history show or format, that's what non-com is for.
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AC format rules of programming
- Thread starter karasak
- Start date
J
JimmyJames
Guest
I understand gr8's point but in some markets, with fewer options, I don't know that "runs for that button" is appropriate. If she's that busy, the station may likely be background anyways and the first thing on her mind is NOT going to be changing the station because of one song. But if you play songs that "fit" and balance them with the bigger hits, you can add some depth to the mix without being too unfamiliar or out there. It can be done.
hornet61 said:
The reason why AC stations tend to hover in the 350 to 500 song range is that when, over the years, thousands of songs are tested with the lsiteners, the only ones that the majority want to hear (and that the minority does not utterly despise) are the same 400 or so titles.
The depth of any station's playlist is determined by the feedback of listeners. Since radio can't customize for each listener a la Pandora, consensus is the driving force and there are not 1000 or 2000 or, OMG, 4000 consensus songs.
If you play 4000 songs in AC, you are playing about 3500 stiffs.
J
JimmyJames
Guest
Maybe in Los Angeles, David.
JimmyJames said:
The same applies in Buenos Aires, Quito, Santiago, San Juan, Karachi, Birmingham, El Paso, Guadalajara, Chicago, Albuquerque, New York, Miami, Tulsa, Bismark or any other radio market.
When you have done or had done near 2000 music tests and research projects, you will see that there is no way you can make listeners happy by playing 2000 or 4000 or more songs. They may have listened when there was nothing but radio, but that does not apply today,
The key issue is that not all songs that were once hits are still hits. And, even more when talking about the 60's and 70's, not all songs that charted were hits.
H
hornet61
Guest
I can't believe that you all really swallow this crap 4,000 songs = 3500 stiffs...Since when is a top40 hit a stiff, and the term obscure , only means that person never heard it. The average Oldies station plays 528 a day, your 500 song library repeats with-in 24hrs , boy that really programming. My point with whitburn is to prove that there are over 4,000 quality cuts over the period of 1965-1995.........If you can't comprehend that point, i'm better of talking to the wall. Key statement "Over the Years Tested" well after 40 years These same listeners are tired of those same 500 songs. This is a waste of my time , I'm outta here.
A lot of hits in the day were just crap. You seriously are going to tell me that A/C should be playing Donny Osmond records from the 70s? Under your scenario every time a listener tunes in they are going to hear a different era. You really think a 37 year old woman who never heard "Watching Scotty Grow" is going to listen to it now! I know the mantra: "me and all my friends are tired of the same 500 songs, therefore so is everyone else. Therefore the way to win is to drop the hits or spread them out so thin that they are essentially not being played at all. Then go to Whitburn and play everything that ever charted and listeners will say that they love it and now want to listen 100% to songs they have never heard. You will then have a 50 share" In dreamland. And let's say this listener really likes "Watching Scotty Grow". She'll hear it again in what, another year? How does that translate into that song becoming familiar? Really it's talking to the "play everything that ever existed" crowd that's like talking to a brick wall.
hornet61 said:
LOL..."I'm not getting my way, so I'm gonna kick sand and go home."
I would LOVE to be in a market that you're programming in, as your competition. The fact is, they're NOT tired of these songs. Just because YOU are doesn't mean your audience shares your sentiment.
I have thousands of songs on my iPod...funny how I tend to only listen to a few at a time, over and over. I bet I'm not alone.
hornet61 said:
If you are going to take umbrage at my statement, at least get the terminology and nomenclature right.
A stiff is a song people do not want to hear, that they don't like. They may not want to hear it because they never liked it, or because of "developed dislike" because they used to like it but no longer do... often called "burn." For whatever reason, a stiff is a song that is not playable on the radio today.
We were talking about AC. AC's nearly always have a percentage of currents and recurrents, which will play multiple times a day and where somewhere around 30 to 50 songs will make up a third or more of the total weekly spins. So the remaining 350 to 400 songs on an AC will play, were they all evenly rotated, about every 50 hours. And, if properly rotated, the average PPM lsitener will hear them about once every 10 to 15 days.
There are very, very few viable oldies stations left in the US. The classic hits stations, in the model of WOGL, WCBS-FM, KRTH and KOOL-FM, seem to have libraries in the 800 song range exclusive of tunes played in specialty shows in less listened to dayparts.
By the way, it is tough for a station to average more than 12 songs an hour, and that is just under 300 total spins a day, not 528 songs a day. You seem to think that a station can play 22 songs an hour! How about the commercials, the promos, the DJ liners, and the fact that the average length of a song is not 2:45 but more like 3:30 to 4:00.
Have a snit... no, have two, they are small.
Of the 4000 songs, there are a considerable number that got play because of factors other than their hittiness. We're talking Joe Isgro here.
And there are many that are burnt out, which nearly nobody wants to hear any more. I am embarassed that I ever listened to anything by the 1910 Fruitgum Company. I don't want to hear the Carpenters and Osmonds ever again. I will wretch if I hear Ballad of the Green Berets or Nel Blu di Pinto di Blu (Volare) or Simon Says and on and on. Those songs, while they charted, are stiffs today and unplayable.
You are confusing a radio station with a museum.
By "over the years" I mean over the last couple of years. Stations test, each time they do so, lots of songs they don't play to see if they are playable, always looking for the opportunity to add a tune or ten to replace others that burnt out or are too old to be demographically suitable.
And you forget that radio is a business... there is a fuzzy barrier somewhere in the late 60's that makes most songs that are any older unacceptable as they appeal principally to people over 55, an unsalable demolgraphic.
And, again, we were talking about AC and not oldies. There is a big difference.
The vast and enormous majority of listeners are not tired of the consensus-mandated big hits. And they want to hear them often...
H
hornet61
Guest
well i'm sure that 37 yr old woman will be vary happy with your station. The rest will be looking else where....I am not confusing any thing with a radio museum....I just learned from the Genius of George Wilson.....his credentials are in the top 5 programmers of of all time. Currently on the nominating committee for the hit parade hall of fame. Former head of the Bartell group, Claude Hall of Billboard wrote "George Wilson as a DJ had few peers, as a programmer had even fewer" every major programmer in all the big markets worked for George Wilson at one time. I didnt recall seeing "GRoldies" and "roger that" in the same room with GW or the same universe for that matter. Hey I just wanted to pass on what I learned from George.....but, I can see you know more than he, so i guess i owe you all an apology.
J
JimmyJames
Guest
I don't think it's necessary to run 4,000 songs.
However, I'm saying for a small market there could be instances where a 1,500 song playlist might not be a bad idea IF it were properly rotated and well managed.
It's a balance. And David's experience in the majors makes a lot of sense for situations where you have that much competition. But there are some smaller markets, where there are fewer stations and a good AC could afford a broader library. There have been many instances where it works, and in relation to the original poster, if his market has few stations, and his is an AC, it is wise to be broader than a KOST or WLTW.
That doesn't mean play every Osmond song that ever charted, but it doesn't mean copy the 300 song major market list either. AC is an office format, and in smaller markets (I know this from experience) burning too many currents too often is far more risky than pulling out an "oh wow" song that your target audience grew up with.
It takes a programmer who knows their market, and their music, but isn't a "follower." All I'm saying is, take the lead, create your own sound within the target demo and the culture of your market.
However, I'm saying for a small market there could be instances where a 1,500 song playlist might not be a bad idea IF it were properly rotated and well managed.
It's a balance. And David's experience in the majors makes a lot of sense for situations where you have that much competition. But there are some smaller markets, where there are fewer stations and a good AC could afford a broader library. There have been many instances where it works, and in relation to the original poster, if his market has few stations, and his is an AC, it is wise to be broader than a KOST or WLTW.
That doesn't mean play every Osmond song that ever charted, but it doesn't mean copy the 300 song major market list either. AC is an office format, and in smaller markets (I know this from experience) burning too many currents too often is far more risky than pulling out an "oh wow" song that your target audience grew up with.
It takes a programmer who knows their market, and their music, but isn't a "follower." All I'm saying is, take the lead, create your own sound within the target demo and the culture of your market.
JimmyJames said:
While there may be 1500 familiar songs and which don't have enormous negatives, in AC that means two things: First, 2/3 of the library has no passion attached from anyone, and Second, the songs people love will be heard only a third as often.
I found that the library size does not change whether it is LA or Lake City, FL. We did a roughly 450 song list at WNFB in Lake City a number of years ago, and it worked fine. THere were no comments on repeats; the previous encarnation of the format, nome grown, with a 1000+ library got constant repeat complaints.
Listeners perceive repetition when songs they dislike play to often. When you ask how often they want to hear the songs they love, the answer is almost uniformly, "every time I tune in." You can not hold them with songs with no passion.
But even softer ACs like KOST play currents around 35 times a week or 5 times a day. That, given that total radio listening is truly around 12 hours a week (out of 168) is hardly burning a song.
And KOST plays about 475 to 500 songs in regular rotation. Hot AC KBIG plays about 450.
More than knowing the market or the music, find out what the listener wants and give it to them. I've veen in situations where I was called on to make a station perform within a month or two of first visiting the market, and it did not matter what I thought... it matters what the listener thinks.
hornet61 said:
You're obviously getting your feelings hurt again. Regardless of your personal attacks, I stand by what I said. If you can show us an example of your methods working, please do.
Roger That said:
This is quite clearly a case of "my iPod has better music than any radio station."
Projecting this sample size of one into a market universe is the sticky wicket.
The professionals here are unable to see this simple fact:
There are already thousands of stations playing to the least common denominator, and it would appear these
less "involved" listeners are already well served. What I and others suggest is that SOMEhow, it should be possible to serve,
let's say. "oldies listeners who want to dig deeper", and expect to hear songs they don't know.
Why can't they see this fact?
Because the business will only follow money they can see on the table right this instant, just as David said.
"Turn these numbers UP, rightaway."
There are already thousands of stations playing to the least common denominator, and it would appear these
less "involved" listeners are already well served. What I and others suggest is that SOMEhow, it should be possible to serve,
let's say. "oldies listeners who want to dig deeper", and expect to hear songs they don't know.
Why can't they see this fact?
Because the business will only follow money they can see on the table right this instant, just as David said.
"Turn these numbers UP, rightaway."
Tom Wells said:
First, oldies (meaning 60's based pop music) is no longer a viable format, because, however long the playlist, the listeners are all over 55... and most over 60. There are essentially no agency buys against that demo, so there is no way to pay for the operation save very small markets where there is only local revenue... and then it is getting tough.
Deep playlists will "work" in limited fashion where there is no more focused station. I had a classic rocker that played about 500 cuts, and a competitor came on with 1800 cuts... and they positioned themselves as playing four times the music that we did. We kept our 20 share, the other station got a 1.8, and was gone in a year. When we did perceptual research, we won the variety image, they won the bad songs too often image.
And perhaps the most "involved" listeners you can find are the P1's of hip hop stations... wehre the average playlist is around about 80 to 110 songs.
Oh, and they got the 1.8 out of the box. In a year's time, they were down below a 0.9. They did not grow... they just played songs people did not want to hear.
Tom Wells said:
No doubt the need to make ratings/money gets in the way of this utopia that has been dreamt up. What I don't understand is, how are the 4000-song playlist pundits expecting that reality to magically go away? It costs money to operate a radio station. It doesn't matter if you're a single-station owner or a major corporation. That reality doesn't change.
As to the service of the "oldies listeners who want to dig deeper," isn't that what satellite radio was supposed to be? All these extra, commercial-free, deep-cut, huge-playlist stations that *spoiler alert* no one listens to? What about Internet Radio? Same plan...same outcome.
I agree with gr8oldies: We live in a world in which people want what they want when they want it. With such an on-demand requirement, it's amazing that listeners give ANY of their time to radio, especially knowing how little it actually "communicates" to them (i.e. the content between the records sucks). I don't know about you, but I don't want to take the chance that they aren't going to recognize/like/love what they hear when they turn the station on.
Simple-you want the 37 year old to listen to your I-pod vs her I-pod.
You best have the songs she knows and can sing along to, period.
I agree, the content in between the songs sucks. Shut up and play the hits.
If you think about it radio spends every hour bragging about itself.
We play the best variety. We're number one. We're giving away tickets to____. We're the best!
Once or twice an hour we have listeners (testimonials) telling you how wonderful we are.
You best have the songs she knows and can sing along to, period.
I agree, the content in between the songs sucks. Shut up and play the hits.
If you think about it radio spends every hour bragging about itself.
We play the best variety. We're number one. We're giving away tickets to____. We're the best!
Once or twice an hour we have listeners (testimonials) telling you how wonderful we are.
J
JimmyJames
Guest
Roger_That, actually XM's "Decades" channels were both critical successes AND heavily listened to channels - then Sirius cost themselves a lot of goodwill by making them more FM style. So deeper oldies channels were working on satellite radio.
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