ACTIVE RADIO LISTENERS AND CBS-FM

[RADIO TRUTH]

Typically one tenth of one percent of a radio station's audience is active. Active... meaning calling the djs, writing the program director, writing anything on any radio message board, going to remotes, participating in station promotions or playing contests. There has been much written about CBS-FM by these active listeners.
No radio station dj or program director should be influenced by these active listeners in any way. These active
listeners are not representative of the audience as a whole. A program director who is influenced by these active listeners/groupies is committing programming suicide. The active listeners/groupies grossly overestimate
their importance to any programming or music decision made by any radio station but, it is amusing to see some
of the idiotic things that they write.

 

[LinoNYC]

active listeners/groupies grossly overestimate
their importance to any programming or music decision made by any radio station but, it is amusing to see some
of the idiotic things that they write.

Your remarks read as those of an arrogant jerk, you must be in media.

On background, I have no connections to the industry nor any interest in working in it, I don't listen to most of the stations discussed here. the boards are a hobby.

A program director who is influenced by these active listeners/groupies is committing programming suicide.

You fail to describe the market size. If you are talking about NY/LA you're probably right. In the case of smaller local stations in suburbs and rural locations, I have driven past and stopped at events promoted and staged by local a local station they turned out what seemed to be a significant percentage of the listener base.

Why would a station bother otherwise.

Before you dismiss "active listeners" remember that they constitute a loyal core of P-1s and from which word-of-mouth will spread a stations name.

In 1991, I visited a fellow theater tech running lights for a Richard Nader Oldies show at what was then called the Byrne Arena. It was hosted by Don K Reid of WCBS-fm. The packed house cheered whenever the stations calls were mentioned.

In New York, Z-100 sells out The Garden every year for it's Jingle Ball -guess those 17 thousand+ are just pathetic radio groupies too and the station just foolish for catering to them.

You must be a great success.

Lino

 

[OldiesCat]

active listeners/groupies grossly overestimate
their importance to any programming or music decision made by any radio station but, it is amusing to see some
of the idiotic things that they write.

Your remarks read as those of an arrogant jerk, you must be in media.

One problem with your name-calling, however: they are right. Some estimate that number closer to 5% and it might be 10% (maybe) in a smaller market.

You admit you're not in radio yet you rip somebody who obviously knows a little something. Your credibility on this board just went down the poop schute.

 

[LinoNYC]

One problem with your name-calling, however: they are right. Some estimate that number closer to 5% and it might be 10% (maybe) in a smaller market.

The remarks by the character that started this thread that I take issue with:
"No radio station dj or program director should be influenced by these active listeners in any way."

Really? Would anyone actually in the business need to read this comment? NO. [EDIT]

Your credibility on this board just went down the poop schute.

How articulate. I allways consider the source when responding. Your stock-and-trade is delivering little real information with as much belligerence as possible. If I didn't know better, I'd peg you and "Radio Truth" as bunkmates.

All the best, Lino


[EDIT-inflammatory]

 

[amfmsw]

Dear mr. truth, and others, who keep telling station owners that i AND PEOPLE MY AGE, who are "active " listeners, please read some facts before shooting yourself in the credibility foot.

http://www.rab.com/public/rst/rst_new/rstarticle.cfm?id=1266&type=article1

Let's see if you can handle some truth.

 

[Element9]

It's a good article and makes valid points. What it does not prescribe is a way to reach and motivate this demographic, relative to the discussions that take place on this board regarding CBS-FM.

More Motown? Less Tears for Fears? More "Respect," less "Dancing In the Dark?" More 60's, less 80's?

One thing about 'boomers (and I speak from experience) is that you cannot paint the demographic with generalities, especially as to music tastes and preferences. It's likely you'll find there are people who dig the Four Tops as much as they like U2... or not. BTW, U2 has a few songs that are 25 years old. Certainly old enough to be considered an "oldie" or a "classic hit."

So the debate will likely continue here, " badabee, badabah..."

-9-

 

[warm590]

Don't mind oldies cat...despite his moniker, he's against oldies programming, and seems to know everything about everything. Would you bet the farm on what your listeners say...probably not. Would you listen to what they are saying....if you are not, you don't belong in this business. Would you make business decisions on what your listeners are saying??....maybe....if you are not paying attention to every bit of info that comes across your desk you have your head in the sand. Besides, testing records in the market place....isn't that all about listening to your audience???


OK, listen to your consultants (if you need them and cannot do what they do in house), listen to the word on the street, listen to your audience, and of course the book.....


Hmm david eduardo and oldies cat after me with napalm.....got the kevlar suit on , ladies...bring it on

warm590 ;D

 

[Grindlfan]

Typically one tenth of one percent of a radio station's audience is active. Active... meaning calling the djs, writing the program director, writing anything on any radio message board, going to remotes, participating in station promotions or playing contests. There has been much written about CBS-FM by these active listeners.
No radio station dj or program director should be influenced by these active listeners in any way. These active
listeners are not representative of the audience as a whole. A program director who is influenced by these active listeners/groupies is committing programming suicide. The active listeners/groupies grossly overestimate
their importance to any programming or music decision made by any radio station but, it is amusing to see some
of the idiotic things that they write.

Yes indeed, ignore the listener. Who needs em anyway? Build a successful radio station without them. Let the consultants and research groups decide what people want to hear then broadcast it to nobody and sell, sell, sell that advertising!

 

[davideduardo]

Yes indeed, ignore the listener. Who needs em anyway? Build a successful radio station without them. Let the consultants and research groups decide what people want to hear then broadcast it to nobody and sell, sell, sell that advertising!

Cat has already stated that the callers, remote attendees and such are a tiny fraction of a station's audience, and zealously satifying their requests and desires will, potentially, cause the loss of the "other" 90% to 95% who would never call a station, play a contest, etc.

This is why, instead of writing down phone requests, stations spend $30,000 to $40,000 each to do music tests... often multiple times each year... and why they do callout for current based formats, somtimes pending an extra $50 to $100 thousand on that. A music test gets a true cross section of all listeners, active or passive, with age and sex balance, etc. so that the group faithfully parallels the audience the station is after.

"Research" is just another term for "talking with the consumer" to find out, in this case, what the entire listener base wants. The idea is to increase listening, so advertising (which can not be sold if there are no listeners). Talking to just a few listeners is, in fact, a disservice the vast majority of listeners who would never, ever call or come in contact with a station.

 

[KevinFodor]

David...Cat...

I hate to state the obvious here, but the posters here won't listen to anything you...or I say.

You see, we are "big bad media". We actually work in the business. We're part of that group that, they believe, doesn't and won't listen to them because of consultants, "corporate radio and it's standardized playlists", other media and (even) political biases.

They believe "radio sucks". And if we'd only listen to them, radio would be fun again, live DJ's would be hired 24/7, and the entire business would go back to the good old days of the 1950's and 1960's when AM radio was king. (And, perhaps Cousin Brucie would be 30 again. Just kidding there.) OK, that's an exaggeration, but it makes my point.

They ignore the fact that radio does pay attention to listeners, but doesn't do it in a way that could bias what they're trying to learn about the audience. That's called "research". And, they ignore the fact that successful radio stations, including WCBS-FM have operated in this manner since, certainly the 1980's if not before. These are also the people who, in perhaps a genuine attempt to be helpful, come to us with a stack of 45's, even today, of "songs you may have forgotten about". This, despite the fact that most signifcant hits are already available digitally on CD. And, the few that haven't have probably already been dubbed to digital via "digital turntables" which transfer an analog turntable's sound thru a USB cord to a computer.

They can't accept the fact that playing an old song not heard for a long time or a B-side from way back when is a great way to lose listeners. I know a guy on a 50,000 watt FM in Ohio that did it that way. He was
(if I recall correctly), normally around #15 in the market in his time slot. And this was not in a "small" market.

If a station doesn't play a song, there's probably a reason.

We have a small AM station in a neighboring community here in Ohio that went oldies a while back. It's PD insisted on playing the biggest music library...some 4,000 song titles. No rotations of popular tunes. He was proud that their "rotation" was about one play every 7 days. He would tell you how the station was "really catching on"...that they were getting tons of phone calls from people around our area telling us how much they "love the station." (The "Active Radio Listeners", I take it?)

This station never showed up in even one Arbitron book with even a 0.1 share 12 plus. Today, they have one foot in bankruptcy court. I agree there's a big difference between NYC and this station. But the parallel between what some of the things some of you say you want...and what this station did...is valid.

Yes...the "active listeners" are, in all likelihood, some of the P-1's to your station. But, since "active" listeners make up only 2 or 3 or so percent of the total audience, (statistically proven over and over again) are you suggesting a station like CBS-FM's total P-1's are just 2 to 3 percent of their audience? No...the other P-1's don't have the time to call the station, participate in contests, come to the car shows, etc. But they listen...and listen a lot. They consider CBS-FM a "musical preference", not almost a religion. They have a life.

Do radio programmers still value "gut instinct". Yes. But, you use your research to back up what you're hearing from your gut. Do we listen to suggestions from listeners? Certainly. But we don't listen to such suggestions if we have reams and reams of research that says otherwise.

If all this comes off to you as arrogance and ego, fine. But, a very successful person once said ego and arrogance born of knowledge and experience is a useful thing.

I am not a "corporate toadie". I do not worship at the alter of consultants. (I have known good ones as well as some real doofuses.). And I have done over the years as a programmer exactly some of the things these folks say that we should do...and I have the bad rating books to prove it. I learned, through hard knocks and experience, that, quite often, there's a reason radio does what it does. After you fall off that cliff a few times, you learn to be more careful near its' edge. It's all just not apparent to the people who don't work in it.

I respect everyone's passion here. But, if we've got the right to be wrong...so do you.

 

[LinoNYC]

They believe "radio sucks". And if we'd only listen to them, radio would be fun again, live DJ's would be hired 24/7,

Well, without being hostile towards you, I ask:

Does research state that listeners want 6 to as many as 9 spots in a stopset. Or is that a function of economic goals and pressure from having paid too much for the station ten years ago?

Does research indicate that oldies stations should limit their playlists to some 250-300 songs inspite of the fact that most of thir listeners will have heard these songs for upwards of 40 years.

Ican give two examples that tend to refute this approach: WTJM (Jammin' 105) when it debuted in Dec '98 I heard it in many of my locations, alot of the staff said how great this "new" station was...BY march '99 it was almost completely gone from said locations' background radios. Why? Too much repetition , too limited in genres covered.

This thing was hugely researched before being rolled out nationwide but it failed in a short time because it was too limited Just like all the "Alices" "Arrows" etc.

Major research has shown that young working-class males want "edgy" talk and that same "research" must have shown that winners like Leslie Gold deserved yet a third (or is it fourth) go 'round . It also must have shown that this sort of talk warrented a format dedicated 24/7 to it.

Why then did it fail twice?

That's called "research". And, they ignore the fact that successful radio stations, including WCBS-FM have operated in this manner since, certainly the 1980's if not before.

One of the criticisms rasied against WCBS-fm in the late 1990s was that they hadn't updated their playlist and had gone on cruise control since shortly after Joe McCoy arrived in the early 1980s. Didn't any "research" point out the looming demo problem and how ill-advised it was to stop the clock and not include 1980's hits as they went oldies?

WCBS is also interesting from a tinkering standpoint; from 1989 through early 1990s they were often #1 (12+) Gradually the audience declined -not just in demos but in real, gross numbers of listeners.

Why didn't "research" point to a solution? Instead, all of the attempts made the situation worse. When an inherently "beloved" format such as this falls so dramtically there has to be a reason.

I contend that alot of this research was from the premise of achieving greatest ecomomies of scale after bought-up stations during the late 1990s.

Bottom line; you can draw a colinear curve with increased research and station stick price, but it hasn't allways served it's master well.

Lino

 

[davideduardo]

Does research state that listeners want 6 to as many as 9 spots in a stopset. Or is that a function of economic goals and pressure from having paid too much for the station ten years ago?

Commercial loads today are lower than 10 years ago in larger markets, like NY. And research indicates that listeners don't like commercials. Arbitron indicates that listeners stay around longer if spots are clustered based on analysis of TSL.

Does research indicate that oldies stations should limit their playlists to some 250-300 songs inspite of the fact that most of thir listeners will have heard these songs for upwards of 40 years.

Music tests indicate how many songs are mass appeal in any specific market. If only 400 test above a minimum level, then you play tyhe 400 because listeners want to hear them and don't want to hear all the rest.

This thing (David adds, "Jammin'") was hugely researched before being rolled out nationwide but it failed in a short time because it was too limited Just like all the "Alices" "Arrows" etc.

Movin' was intended to be an LA format for 25-44 assimilated Hispanic females. It was never designed to be good in NY or Miami as it was researched against Mexican-Americans. Then, management decided to "whiten" the format with a non-core morning show, etc., and the station tanked.

One of the criticisms rasied against WCBS-fm in the late 1990s was that they hadn't updated their playlist and had gone on cruise control since shortly after Joe McCoy arrived in the early 1980s. Didn't any "research" point out the looming demo problem and how ill-advised it was to stop the clock and not include 1980's hits as they went oldies?

As long as they billed well, they were hesitant to change it at all. By the time they started changing, it was too late and billing was dropping severely.

Why didn't "research" point to a solution? Instead, all of the attempts made the situation worse. When an inherently "beloved" format such as this falls so dramtically there has to be a reason.

Again, they probably did only music research and did not do perceptuals... research alone does not discover problems... a skillful PD and manager have to tell the reserch company what they want to know and what the objectives of the project are. Questionnaire development can take a month or more for a good project.

I contend that alot of this research was from the premise of achieving greatest ecomomies of scale after bought-up stations during the late 1990s.

Programming research does not offer accounting or management solutions. It tells you what listeners like and don't like. It does not even do much on predicting what listeners will like int he future.

Bottom line; you can draw a colinear curve with increased research and station stick price, but it hasn't allways served it's master well.

There is no evidence to support this. In fact, most researchers will tell you that consolidation brought less research out of cost savings. So, you could make a case that more research brings better programming.

 

[OldiesCat]

Dear mr. truth, and others, who keep telling station owners that i AND PEOPLE MY AGE, who are "active " listeners, please read some facts before shooting yourself in the credibility foot.

http://www.rab.com/public/rst/rst_new/rstarticle.cfm?id=1266&type=article1

Let's see if you can handle some truth.

Here's the real truth: you are right about boomers' spending power.

You are wrong in blaming station owners; the problem lies with ADVERTISERS who are not using radio to target their 55+ consumers. ONE MORE TIME: it's MAJOR ADVERTISERS who are NOT using RADIO to target 55+ consumers.

Why is that concept so difficult to comprehend? It doesn't matter if we like it or agree with it. It's the REALITY. So, please stop blaming some of us who at least tell the truth vs. sugar-coating a bunch of denial candies for you.

 

[LinoNYC]

Does research indicate that oldies stations should limit their playlists to some 250-300 songs inspite of the fact that most of thir listeners will have heard these songs for upwards of 40 years.

Music tests indicate how many songs are mass appeal in any specific market. If only 400 test above a minimum level, then you play tyhe 400 because listeners want to hear them and don't want to hear all the rest.

Sounds fine in principle, but as you know that same research shows popularity and we end up with not 300-400 songs in rotation but rather 75-150 in a sort of power rotation. I don't know how long this has been a strict rule but when oldies was a new concept and for the first ten years after WCBS had a much wider playlist and was much more entertaining than the shadow it became by the early 00's..

This thing (David adds, "Jammin'") was hugely researched before being rolled out nationwide but it failed in a short time because it was too limited Just like all the "Alices" "Arrows" etc.

Movin' was intended to be an LA format for 25-44 assimilated Hispanic females. It was never designed to be good in NY or Miami as it was researched against Mexican-Americans. Then, management decided to "whiten" the format with a non-core morning show, etc., and the station tanked.

Sorry I don't understand this response however the last sentance does touch on one of the problems that doomed Jamin' here in NY. The station's Dec '98 press release stated that the core was black artists and uptempo-danceable with a scope of 1968-82. however they brought in the inane Jay Thomas along with several white DJs and used a jingle package reminescent of a 70's era WABC. Really a bizarre contradiction of styles.

The real problem from folks I spoke to was repetition and limited range of music style.

Again, how is it that research (and prior experience) didn't catch all the flaws.

I contend that alot of this research was from the premise of achieving greatest ecomomies of scale after bought-up stations during the late 1990s.

Programming research does not offer accounting or management solutions. It tells you what listeners like and don't like. It does not even do much on predicting what listeners will like int he future.

Understood, however my point here was that over the last ten years most local flavor and variety seems to have left formats such as AC. I used to tune in WEBE, WEZN, WHUD and several FMs from NJ -all had atleast some difference in the choice of music, not anymore. As you have pointed out, music testing is expensive and thus limited mostly the largest markets and I suspect that these large group-owners are simply imposing the results as a template across all similarly formatted stations.

When I read articles such as one I linked-to recently from the NY Times on the decline of listenership and in personal conversations with aquaintences that have gone over to IPODs or other personal media they all cite : "too much commercials" "Same music over and over".

I guess that gets us back where we started.

Regards, Lino

 

[davideduardo]

Sounds fine in principle, but as you know that same research shows popularity and we end up with not 300-400 songs in rotation but rather 75-150 in a sort of power rotation. I don't know how long this has been a strict rule but when oldies was a new concept and for the first ten years after WCBS had a much wider playlist and was much more entertaining than the shadow it became by the early 00's..

Stations have had various levels of rotational frequency going back the big AM top 40 days. WABC played the top song every 90 minutes because people want to hear their favorite songs more than ones they just like but that are not favorites.

Sorry I don't understand this response however the last sentance does touch on one of the problems that doomed Jamin' here in NY. The station's Dec '98 press release stated that the core was black artists and uptempo-danceable with a scope of 1968-82. however they brought in the inane Jay Thomas along with several white DJs and used a jingle package reminescent of a 70's era WABC. Really a bizarre contradiction of styles.

But the format was never intended to be in NY. It was researched in LA for LA Hispanics... some white and clueless fool took the LA research and said, "there are lots of those people here, too" and put a Mexican format on where there are mostly Boricuas.

Again, how is it that research (and prior experience) didn't catch all the flaws.

There was no local research, as far as anyone can tell.

Understood, however my point here was that over the last ten years most local flavor and variety seems to have left formats such as AC. I used to tune in WEBE, WEZN, WHUD and several FMs from NJ -all had atleast some difference in the choice of music, not anymore. As you have pointed out, music testing is expensive and thus limited mostly the largest markets and I suspect that these large group-owners are simply imposing the results as a template across all similarly formatted stations.

In the top 100 to 150 markets, stations can easily research, and do. Generally, in smaller markets station groups will rotate projects in similar stations in the same close area, like Macon and Albany, alternating back and forth. But in markets down to the size of Huntsville, El Paso, Albuquerque, etc., local research is done.

When I read articles such as one I linked-to recently from the NY Times on the decline of listenership and in personal conversations with aquaintences that have gone over to IPODs or other personal media they all cite : "too much commercials" "Same music over and over".

When we talk to listeners, the most common comment is about commercials. Then, they say that the problem with repetition is that they do not hear their favorite songs often enough, and hear too much unfamiliar, new music.

 

[RADIO TRUTH]

This thread has gotten way off topic. The point that I was trying to make is that any station that makes any programming or music decision based on the rantings of the active audience/groupies, is doomed to failure. These groupies all have some kind of goofy agenda and should not be taken seriously. Many of them were either
college djs, worked for $6.00 an hour in the boonies or radio wannabes. Jingle and aircheck collectors are worse.
Success for a radio station, especially in a major market, comes from having a game plan, targeting your audience, having well thought out, planned research and a cohesive relationship between programming and sales.
Success is not listening to the verbal and written diarrhea of a bunch of frustrated radio geeks who inhabit the majority of radio message boards like a fungus.

 

[amfmsw]

OC, DE and the rest. My terribly explained point IS that the stations drop the format because Consultants keepo telling them to BECAUSE ad agencies keep steering client towards a younger audience, who DON'T have as much money!

I think WARM and others here are frustrated trying to find out...WHY? When you know we have the money and REAL buying clout, why do the agencies keep telling clients: think young

Don't blame the failure of 101 Jack on anything else but the "think young" mentality. Don't try to reason it away here with psychobabble. It failed because it was a STUPID thing to do!

 

[fang39]

Sorry I don't understand this response however the last sentance does touch on one of the problems that doomed Jamin' here in NY. The station's Dec '98 press release stated that the core was black artists and uptempo-danceable with a scope of 1968-82. however they brought in the inane Jay Thomas along with several white DJs and used a jingle package reminescent of a 70's era WABC. Really a bizarre contradiction of styles.

But the format was never intended to be in NY. It was researched in LA for LA Hispanics... some white and clueless fool took the LA research and said, "there are lots of those people here, too" and put a Mexican format on where there are mostly Boricuas.

Wait a minute, David....we're discussing the JAMMIN' format--not "MOVIN'." This format was created and christened "Jammin" by Tom Joyner, a well known African American Radio Air Personality. I don't understand your statement that a format featuring black soul, disco and R&B hits would be targeted to Mexican women? To be perfectly blunt, this was "black" music for "white" people!

I agree with Lino--when Jammin debuted in late '98--EVERYONE was talking about it! It was very well received by listeners and it could be heard playing in Delicatessens, Diners, Laundromats....EVERYWHERE! The problem was that the playlist was waaaaay too narrow (seems like "We Are Family/I Will Survive" were played every 90 minutes!) and some of the jocks (i.e.-Jay Thomas, Al Bandiero, Efren Sifuentes) didn't belong within the format. By the time they tinkered with it, it was too late. But, make no mistake about it. No radio station in this market, since Z-100 hit the airwaves in 1983, had made as significant a leap in their first book as "Jammin' 105" did. They took a significant chunk away from CBS-FM, who countered by promoting playing "Motown, Soul and great Rock & Roll."

 

[OldiesCat]

OC, DE and the rest. My terribly explained point IS that the stations drop the format because Consultants keepo telling them to BECAUSE ad agencies keep steering client towards a younger audience, who DON'T have as much money!

I think WARM and others here are frustrated trying to find out...WHY? When you know we have the money and REAL buying clout, why do the agencies keep telling clients: think young

Don't blame the failure of 101 Jack on anything else but the "think young" mentality. Don't try to reason it away here with psychobabble. It failed because it was a STUPID thing to do!

amfm- consultants have nothing to do with any of this (here it is again: blame "the consultants").

And, you're looking at this sideways. Here's a premise: the CEO of "X" company, making "Y" product that's produced and marketed to 35-44 women- if his marketing team has any sense about them, they will not buy radio time on an Oldies station to advertise their product. And, for the folks producing and marketing all these OTC pharmaceuticals, they are definitely aimed at 50+, HOWEVER (and this is vitally important) they are NOT using radio (regardless of format) to target their consumers- they primarily use television. What the radio station's GM, "consultant" or the ad agencies say has absolutely no influence on that decision.

What kills me with some of you is you INSIST on blaming GMs, PDs, Sellers, agencies and the man on the moon for the Oldies format fading away. You are attacking the wrong people and it's time you stopped, took a long breath and realize your emotional take on all this is skewing your view of reality.

Why is this very simple thing so damned difficult to understand? Huh?

 

[davideduardo]

Wait a minute, David....we're discussing the JAMMIN' format--not "MOVIN'." This format was created and christened "Jammin" by Tom Joyner, a well known African American Radio Air Personality. I don't understand your statement that a format featuring black soul, disco and R&B hits would be targeted to Mexican women? To be perfectly blunt, this was "black" music for "white" people!

Umm... I thought we were talking about the Jammin' Oldies format, created by AMFM and Harold Austin for 92.3 in Los Angeles in the 90's (Harold had been PD of The Beat in LA, but is Hispanic). This one was totally developed for Hispanics, and was mistakenly taken and put on in other markets, some very white ones included, and it burnt to a crisp or never got off the ground.

I agree with Lino--when Jammin debuted in late '98--EVERYONE was talking about it! It was very well received by listeners and it could be heard playing in Delicatessens, Diners, Laundromats....EVERYWHERE! The problem was that the playlist was waaaaay too narrow (seems like "We Are Family/I Will Survive" were played every 90 minutes!) and some of the jocks (i.e.-Jay Thomas, Al Bandiero, Efren Sifuentes) didn't belong within the format.

That sounds like Jammin' Oldies, modified, for NY.

By the time they tinkered with it, it was too late. But, make no mistake about it. No radio station in this market, since Z-100 hit the airwaves in 1983, had made as significant a leap in their first book as "Jammin' 105" did. They took a significant chunk away from CBS-FM, who countered by promoting playing "Motown, Soul and great Rock & Roll."

The original concept of Jammin' was exactly that... Black and rhythmic oldies for non-Black people. Unfortunately, the appeal was mostly limited to Mexican origin Hispanics, and at that time, there were very few of those in NY.