Adult Standards

[Frisco Kid]

With Kaam being such a dog,who do you feel could take the adult standards format and run with it?

 

[davideduardo]

Unllikely anyone would do this. The format has nearly 100% 65 and older appeal, and that is a tough sale.

 

[Frisco Kid]

But with today's 60 being like yesterday's 40,there has to be some life in the old dog. Look at Fresno California not exactly an old person's city the station doing standards there pulls a 5 share and is number 2 in the market, Remeber KQUE in Houston. Is standards really a tougher sale than regional mexican or hip hop?

 

[SmokeRing]

who do you feel could take the adult standards format and run with it?

Forgive me, but the thought of someone "running" with the adult standards format just reminds me of the scene in Seinfeld where George Costanza, in a motorized wheelchair, is being chased down the sidewalk by a group of old people in their own motorized wheelchairs.

 

[Frisco Kid]

Do those old people include Nora Jone,Michael Bubble and Rene Olmstead?

 

[SmokeRing]

Do those old people include Nora Jones, Michael Bubble and Rene Olmstead?

Just havin' some fun. I like the adult standards format, too.

;D

 

[Frisco Kid]

Good for you. Now back to the question:at point will some operator say "Hey! standards is the lest exploited format in the area.Based on what was done with 620,not with this joke 770 how do I get a 2 share or better with this format?"
I mean there operators in the market both am and fm who should be asking this question.

 

[stinker]

just thinkin' here, but i've thought that KAAM should take over the WRR-FM frequency...
would sound SO much better.....
In Las Vegas, their standards are heard on FM as "the sounds of our city", and it does decent...

i enjoy that kind of music and listen more than occasionally, and would love to hear it here on FM..

 

[davideduardo]

But with today's 60 being like yesterday's 40,there has to be some life in the old dog. Look at Fresno California not exactly an old person's city the station doing standards there pulls a 5 share and is number 2 in the market, Remeber KQUE in Houston. Is standards really a tougher sale than regional mexican or hip hop?

KJWN is 12th 12+ and 16th in revenue. One Regional Mexican formated station outbills it by more than double, and three others beat or tie it. B-95 outbills it 3 to one and Y 101 by double.

Another example, far away too. WDUV is #1 12+ in Tampa. It is 15th in billing.

 

[Frisco Kid]

But isn't the billing question more a matter of the stations failing to find a business modle that works around this rather than a law written in stone.When I was in radio sales a number of years ago one of the most shocking things I learned was that agency media buyers did not want to buy radio in general because they could not tack on high production costs like they could with news papers and tv.What would happen if some operator just finally admitted that and said to the agencies ok you guys want to make more money then I raise the agency commission to say 18 per cent . Three copies press hard please.

 

[Mediafrog+]

But with today's 60 being like yesterday's 40,there has to be some life in the old dog.

The question isn't whether there is life in the old dog, but if radio advertisers want to sell anything to an old dog.

Remember KQUE in Houston.

Adult Standards died on KQUE a decade ago. That audience, which was too old for advertisers then, is that much older now...what's left of them.

Is standards really a tougher sale than regional mexican or hip hop?

Standards=old people, born before World War II. Regional Mexican and Hip-hop=young people, heavily 20- and 30-somethings. Which are the growth demographics?

 

[little1]

But with today's 60 being like yesterday's 40,there has to be some life in the old dog. Look at Fresno California not exactly an old person's city the station doing standards there pulls a 5 share and is number 2 in the market, Remeber KQUE in Houston. Is standards really a tougher sale than regional mexican or hip hop?

Yes it is. Look at basic demographics- 40% (approx) of texas is hisapnic. So 'regional mexican' has a good size chunk of teh audience they might appeal to.

Where adult standards appeals to those "dorky" kids who are into Michael Buble and Harry Connick Jr, the 'cool' retro kids who are into Sinatra and Bennett and the jazz nerds who are into Woody Hermann, Glenn Miller and Artie Shaw. And they're massively outnumbered by the old folks who can't find anything else (besides talk) to listen to.

The majority of advertisers want the 25-54 year graphic. And when I worked at KAAM the audience then (15 years ago) was 60+.

Maybe that Eduardo dude can find the billing for Dallas, but it wouldn't suprise me to see that KAAM is being massively outbilled by stations with lower ratings but 'better' (i.e. younger) demographics.

Let's talk 25-54 'men' buys. The no-brainers are Ticket and Free FM. Then you start mixing in the rock stations- ZPS, Bone, Maybe EDGE, some of the talkers, etc...Even if you're the 5th or 6th station getting bought, you might still make more money with your little piece of that big pie than you will from the little pie that is the 55+ or 65+ 'buy'. There's just not THAT many advertisers buying that via agencies. And that's where the money is.

And you don't have to take my word for it. Listen to a couple of hours and write down who the advertisers are. Eliminate the obvious network spots (Himmel Ovaltine, Oreck Vacumns, etc) and see what you have left. I bet it's a lot of mom and pop and local buisnesses that appeal to old folks. And there's nothing wrong with that.

Just contrast what Budweiser can spend appealing to 25-34 year olds versus what Kuby's Steakhouse can afford to spend...Or Sewell Cadillac. or whoever.

 

[Frisco Kid]

Based on the thiking of some there should be no new artist recording the music and those of us who born after world war two are either hopelessly out of it or just crazy. Did not I read something about the greying of america.Don't forget that first wave of baby boomers are turning 60 and that all the Rolling Stones,the remaining Beatles,Aretha Franklin are over 60, hell James Brown is over 70. by the thinking of the some of the above posts there is no reason for anyone over 55 to even turn on a radio. Why do they continue to use standards in tv spots and movies.The sound track of Huge Grant's movie "Two Weeks Notice" was all standards. Come on people there has to be away to make this format work,or are guys like the some of the above unable to think outside of the box and come up with some that doesn't already fit with what is already presupposed.Look at tv and all products aimed at over 50 market and I don't just me Viagra and Depends.

 

[davideduardo]

But isn't the billing question more a matter of the stations failing to find a business modle that works around this rather than a law written in stone.When I was in radio sales a number of years ago one of the most shocking things I learned was that agency media buyers did not want to buy radio in general because they could not tack on high production costs like they could with news papers and tv.What would happen if some operator just finally admitted that and said to the agencies ok you guys want to make more money then I raise the agency commission to say 18 per cent . Three copies press hard please.

Agecy clients set the demos to be bought. You are not going to sell 65+ to any agency. Any campagin for 65+ wil use direct mail, specialized magazines, etc and not radio.

 

[Frisco Kid]

And this comes back to what I said do you just accept that or do you find ways around that.When was selling back in the 70's the thought was agencies would not buy ethnic audiences because they had no money,yet there were stations who were making money hand over fist.At what point does an operator say you can only split the most desired demos so many ways.When you reach that point what's your next move. Does the market really need another classic rocker that some would say are playing as many dead performers as an adult standards station.Why old the hype about "classic country" . Except for the music aren't they reaching for much of the same demo?I mentioned KQUE and someone said that was ten years ago. That's right it was and they were the leader in 25-54 and only sold when they were offered a ton more money than most people thought they were worth.

 

[davideduardo]

And this comes back to what I said do you just accept that or do you find ways around that.When was selling back in the 70's the thought was agencies would not buy ethnic audiences because they had no money,yet there were stations who were making money hand over fist.At what point does an operator say you can only split the most desired demos so many ways.When you reach that point what's your next move. Does the market really need another classic rocker that some would say are playing as many dead performers as an adult standards station.Why old the hype about "classic country" . Except for the music aren't they reaching for much of the same demo?I mentioned KQUE and someone said that was ten years ago. That's right it was and they were the leader in 25-54 and only sold when they were offered a ton more money than most people thought they were worth.

This is not a decison that radio stations have any influence over. Nor is it one that agency media people have any influence over. When a client's marketing department specifies the target demo, tha tis what the agency is expected to deliver. The product or service has been designed for s specific buyer, and no amount of pitching the media buye will change this.

 

[Frisco Kid]

So listeners over 55 have no value?That's pretty much what we faced in the 70's when talking to agencies about the hispanic and black audiences.I will agree that you can't change what agencies will do unless you educate them about your audience. In the mid 60's I was selling in San Francisco at one of the first AOR stations and no one at an agency wanted to buy until we educated them about the youth market. I don't see much difference in that kind of age based thinking.A good friend of mine in Dallas faced some of that age bias in the 90's trying to sell Z Rock.Once again I ask the question what do you do as sales manager or station owner to get around those objections or do you guys think it can't be done.Granted most of the sucess stories in adult standard operations are not stations owned by groups , could that be the real problem,big group think?

 

[Chuck]

I can't resist chiming in, since I am GM of a small Adult Standards station in East Texas. If Kilgore-Longview is a microcosm of DFW, then Standards, properly done, could make someone a decent living in the DFW area. I’m very sure you’d have listeners. With the right people, you could certainly sell spots. On the other hand, I’m not sure if you could sell enough spots to justify the huge cost of purchasing a DFW station. If the station was already “bought and paid for” then it would be fine. Otherwise, a good return on investment might be difficult to achieve. It depends on your individual situation.

As for my station, we do OK in county ratings. We're non-commercial, so you wont find it in the ratings posted on R&R, which ignore non-commercial stations. If you do stumble on the ratings, keep in mind that the Tyler-Longview Metro is comprised of Cherokee, Smith and Gregg counties. Our signal is only reliable in Gregg and Rusk Counties, so some of the numbers are meaningless. They don't even rate Rusk County, which is where we are based. This fall, the nice folks at Radio Research Consortium ran a Gregg County only report for us. It was quite revealing. As you would expect, we did very well with the 50+ crowd. We thought we would, since that is who we are aiming at. What surprised me was how we did in 12+. If you had the 6 million or so DFW area residents to choose from, you would be reasonably happy with your numbers. You ought to be able to sell it.

I get calls from kids who tell me they listen, and ask pretty intelligent questions about the music. Some of them, probably the brighter ones, think it is "cool." Despite cries to the contrary, most of our listeners are not sitting around in their Depends wishing they had some Viagra. Many are busy using their Viagra. A lot of them are baby boomers who have become tired of hearing the same old 60’s and 70’s hits from Led Zeppelin, Hendrix, etc. They still like rock and roll, but they also liked Frank Sinatra, Dean Martin, Nat Cole, Ella, etc. back in the 60’s too. It turns out that they still do, and they haven’t heard this stuff in a very long time. They also like the remakes by Michael Buble, Rod Stewart, Barry Manilow, Bette Midler, and such. They’ve liked those artists all through their careers, and to a large extent they have grown up and matured together.

Our station is non-commercial, so spot sales and dealing with agencies is not even on our radar. We do accept underwriting and donations. I'm happy to say that they have been fine. Most of our underwriters have called us, saying they'd like to help. How often does that happen at commercial stations? Of course, we are shooting in a much smaller barrel, but the station has a loyal following. I think a good one in DFW would too.

Chuck
KZQX Radio
www.kzqx.com

 

[Frisco Kid]

Thanks Chuc. Well said.

 

[davideduardo]

So listeners over 55 have no value?That's pretty much what we faced in the 70's when talking to agencies about the hispanic and black audiences.I will agree that you can't change what agencies will do unless you educate them about your audience. In the mid 60's I was selling in San Francisco at one of the first AOR stations and no one at an agency wanted to buy until we educated them about the youth market. I don't see much difference in that kind of age based thinking.A good friend of mine in Dallas faced some of that age bias in the 90's trying to sell Z Rock.Once again I ask the question what do you do as sales manager or station owner to get around those objections or do you guys think it can't be done.Granted most of the sucess stories in adult standard operations are not stations owned by groups , could that be the real problem,big group think?

Groups don't do formats that they can not make money on (Although WDUV, #1 in Tampa, is a Cox station). Standards is generally, today, a format for smaller markets where there is little agency business or for fringe facilites, either daytimers or rimshot FMs in some cases. In transactional business, there is no way to sell it.

The "No 55 or over" dictate comes from the clients, not the agencies. There is no way for a radio statin to get this changed, and there are far more profitable ways of spending sales development time.