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Adventures in Retail

M

maximumradio

Guest
I finally decided to go and give HD a listen. All of the stations I am involved with are not HD and I thought it was time to do some due dilligence on the matter. I went to several of the retailers that are advertising heavily the availability of HD receivers.
Radio Shack: Forget them. The 5 stores in Central and South Florida that I visited did not have the Boston Acoustics or the "house" brand hooked up. When the "house" brand was connected it was unable to see the HD signal and stayed in analog. The store manager in one location in Metro Miami told me that HD is a subscription service and thats why--I explained that it is not and admitted that I am in the Broadcasting business. At that point he admitted that the store personnel had received no training about the units and made a point that they both sound like $20 Walmart boomboxes and told me that they had never had an inquiry until mine about the HD receivers. Except in the store where I identified myself as a broadcaster I was always told that Sirius is much better and the attempt to sell me on Sat radio was made.

Circuit City: Orlando, Tampa, and Lakeland car audio sales people all told me that they can not demo the units because they do not connect any antennas to the items except to the demos for Sirius and XM. I checked and it is so. Once again the pitch to move me to XM or Sirius was made. That being the case I went over to the home radio department. Wonder of wonders the Boston Acoustics unit was operational. The unit could barely receive a 50kw Radio Disney affiliate in Orlando several miles away from their transmitter site. That was in analog. I had been in a meeting with a Broadcast Electronics sales rep a few months back where I was told that HD-AM can go through walls and that steel and concrete mean nothing to it. Guess that isn't quite so..... The FM analog reception was not much better and the audio was really disappointing when compared to the analog -albeit larger-mini systems next to it.

Best Buy: I found a JVC car radio actually hooked up and working at the Altamonte Springs, FL Best Buy. The sales guy again confirmed that I was the first person to have any interest in HD and that he had no idea how to tune in the HD-2 channels. He was kind enough to get a user manual from a boxed unit and go through the steps. Only half of the FM stations in the market using HD would actually read on the receiver as HD.The audio on several different speakers was good but nothing to cause me to run out of the store screaming HD's audio virtues to the world. In fact it seemed that the audio was using a nano second of echo and some use of Aphex to brighten it up when compared to the analog signal. The difference was no so dramatic as I expected. In fact it was possible to find some analog signals dialing around that were almost as clean. The HD-2 channels were an experience in patience to receive. It was a three step process of button pushing different buttons on the face of the receiver to get to the HD-2 channel and then after all of that work the audio seemed to be really limited in bandwidth on some of stations and decent on others which goes to show that processing is the most important part of the audio chain. I can see that tuning the HD-2 channel when driving could be as hazardous as texting.

Walmart: Haven't gone yet and will only repost if the experience warrants doing so.

My overall impression is that HD if not made the operating standard is going to be in a lot of trouble unless the retailers get up to speed . The product does not sound that great in a retail setting if the HD signal is receivable at all and the sales people are un, under, or misinformed. In addition unless one is buying a realllly expensive system it appears that the digital audio benefits are extremly mitigated.

As a broadcaster I was on the verge of buying HD or recommending it to some stations I consult. Now I personally will wait to see what happens down the road unless I can get a good AM demo in which case I will also repost and in the meantime tell my clients to go out and experience the retail experience of shopping the receivers and to listen to them and then to draw their own conclusions.
 
maximumradio said:
I finally decided to go and give HD a listen. All of the stations I am involved with are not HD and I thought it was time to do some due dilligence on the matter. I went to several of the retailers that are advertising heavily the availability of HD receivers.
Radio Shack: Forget them. The 5 stores in Central and South Florida that I visited did not have the Boston Acoustics or the "house" brand hooked up. When the "house" brand was connected it was unable to see the HD signal and stayed in analog. The store manager in one location in Metro Miami told me that HD is a subscription service and thats why--I explained that it is not and admitted that I am in the Broadcasting business. At that point he admitted that the store personnel had received no training about the units and made a point that they both sound like $20 Walmart boomboxes and told me that they had never had an inquiry until mine about the HD receivers. Except in the store where I identified myself as a broadcaster I was always told that Sirius is much better and the attempt to sell me on Sat radio was made.

Circuit City: Orlando, Tampa, and Lakeland car audio sales people all told me that they can not demo the units because they do not connect any antennas to the items except to the demos for Sirius and XM. I checked and it is so. Once again the pitch to move me to XM or Sirius was made. That being the case I went over to the home radio department. Wonder of wonders the Boston Acoustics unit was operational. The unit could barely receive a 50kw Radio Disney affiliate in Orlando several miles away from their transmitter site. That was in analog. I had been in a meeting with a Broadcast Electronics sales rep a few months back where I was told that HD-AM can go through walls and that steel and concrete mean nothing to it. Guess that isn't quite so..... The FM analog reception was not much better and the audio was really disappointing when compared to the analog -albeit larger-mini systems next to it.

Best Buy: I found a JVC car radio actually hooked up and working at the Altamonte Springs, FL Best Buy. The sales guy again confirmed that I was the first person to have any interest in HD and that he had no idea how to tune in the HD-2 channels. He was kind enough to get a user manual from a boxed unit and go through the steps. Only half of the FM stations in the market using HD would actually read on the receiver as HD.The audio on several different speakers was good but nothing to cause me to run out of the store screaming HD's audio virtues to the world. In fact it seemed that the audio was using a nano second of echo and some use of Aphex to brighten it up when compared to the analog signal. The difference was no so dramatic as I expected. In fact it was possible to find some analog signals dialing around that were almost as clean. The HD-2 channels were an experience in patience to receive. It was a three step process of button pushing different buttons on the face of the receiver to get to the HD-2 channel and then after all of that work the audio seemed to be really limited in bandwidth on some of stations and decent on others which goes to show that processing is the most important part of the audio chain. I can see that tuning the HD-2 channel when driving could be as hazardous as texting.

Walmart: Haven't gone yet and will only repost if the experience warrants doing so.

My overall impression is that HD if not made the operating standard is going to be in a lot of trouble unless the retailers get up to speed . The product does not sound that great in a retail setting if the HD signal is receivable at all and the sales people are un, under, or misinformed. In addition unless one is buying a realllly expensive system it appears that the digital audio benefits are extremly mitigated.

As a broadcaster I was on the verge of buying HD or recommending it to some stations I consult. Now I personally will wait to see what happens down the road unless I can get a good AM demo in which case I will also repost and in the meantime tell my clients to go out and experience the retail experience of shopping the receivers and to listen to them and then to draw their own conclusions.

It's funny you should mention the nanosecond of delay because I heard it too when I test drove HD-R at my local Radio Shanty. I thought it was my imagination and dismissed it.

Some of the HD-R boosters here (BTW, where are they?) claim an almost religious experience with their radios. I was hoping for a little HD religion too but while the HD-FM sounded good it was no epiphany. I've heard well-engineered analog FM stations that sounded just as good.

I was really hoping to hear HD-AM since I've been told that the difference is dramatic. But, alas, the Accurian simply would not lock into an HD-AM signal even though the radio was wired to an external antenna (and in Los Angeles we have several AM stations broadcasting in HD including the Catalina Island fire starter, KBRT). So far with me, no religion and no sale.

Keep us posted on your further adventures in retail as well as any info on HD-R you hear from your brother engineers and radio professionals.

db
 
I spent last Sunday trying to see if I could find any retailer in the Orlando area where I could listen to HD-AM. The Radio Disney 50kw 990 -even on the Accurian at Radio Shack- was unable to receive the HD signal. or any decent AM signal for that matter. This was a strip center stores without heavy concrete and steel mall type construction. The FM reception was decent and the HD signals from several stations was receivable but the audio was no different than the analog audio. The HD-2 channel was easier to tune than on the JVC car radio but the audio was depending on the station anywhere from sounding like analog to almost AM like in bandwidth in some instances. Once again, I was told the benefit of looking at Sirius. The instore audio from the Sirius demo units instore was much superior to the HD demo. If I was "Mr. Consumer" I would have walked out of the store locations with Sirius based on audio quality and established programming diversity. I haven't discussed programming because my discussion is more technically, equipment, and reception based but it is my hunble opinion that for as long as the overall programming on the HD-2 channels mirrors, albeit noncommercially for now, similar commercial formats in most markets the listener seeking uniquely different program material will be drawn to XM/Sirius and the use of IPODs even if the sudio quality and reception issues I have sited in my two posts on this topic are somehow remedied. When and if I find a location where I can hear HD-AM I will repost detailing my experience.
 
Quote: "Some of the HD-R boosters here (BTW, where are they?) claim an almost religious experience with their radios. I was hoping for a little HD religion too but while the HD-FM sounded good it was no epiphany. I've heard well-engineered analog FM stations that sounded just as good."

I had a couple of HD radios and believe me, there's nothing religious about them. Even at my home, I had experienced issues with reception, mainly the signal periodically dropping out for no specific reason. And it was the HD part that didn't work properly. I know this because I had an analog tuner locked on to the same station at the same time, and when the HD dropped off, the analog was still playing perfectly.

The issue is even worse with AM. When the HD reception falls apart (assuming you can get a lock at all), the difference in audio is drastic. 8)
 
I finally found a suburban Radio Shack that had both the BA Receptor and RS HD Accurian, in on display and hooked up for demo, but there was no HD reception even with outdoor antennas.
I asked the manager "How long have you had these HD radios".
Reply: "Since last year".
"How many have you sold"?
Reply: "None".
 
This Radio Shack HD retail thing is quite pathetic. I've stopped in six of their stores (all within 30 miles of Philadelphia) and none have had a working HD display. However, the radios are fitted with a nifty red "hype" card listing all of the HD stations which are supposedly available.

The last store I visited had nothing attached to the Accurian's antenna terminals, so I asked the "answer provider" how he expected to sell any of these sets. He explained that if a customer asks for a demo, they take it over to the window and "sometimes" they can receive a digital signal. At least his location was in a strip mall with windows -- the stores in large malls usually have horrible signal penetration.

Why is Radio Shack still in business?

http://www.theonion.com/content/news/even_ceo_cant_figure_out_how
 
Radio Shack is a great place to buy wire, connectors, odd electronic components for DIY stuff, batteries, etc. One of the few places still around that offer that stuff. They're okay for cell phones.

Other than that, they suck at everything else. The sales staff is a joke. I can't imagine going in there and buying a television or anything. I'd just as soon go to Wal-Mart.
 
I think that the main issue relating to retailers is that even the so called super audio/video stores are not providing proper equipment demonstrations because corporate has not instructed them to do so or are not able to provide proper demonstration of the products because the technology really is poor..
 
maximumradio said:
I think that the main issue relating to retailers is that even the so called super audio/video stores are not providing proper equipment demonstrations because corporate has not instructed them to do so or are not able to provide proper demonstration of the products because the technology really is poor..

Well, there is that, but there is also the fact that trying to lear all the products a common retailer carries is daunting for a high school kid making practically minimum wage.
 
If it seems like there's a nanosecond of delay, what's really happening is that the analog is out of sync with the digital. The digital signal is by design, delayed. The analog signal is supposed to be delayed the same amount and where I live, it usually is. If you really can't tell the difference between the analog and digital signals then I suspect that the processing is all wrong. Among other things, it has a tight bass and crisp, clear highs, similar to a CD that I can clearly hear even at freeway speeds. I never have a dropout unless the analog signal is so weak, it can't grab on to the signal and that only happens when I'm too far away(over 40 miles)or behind a series of hills and even then, the analog signal has to be weakened. Try that with analog!
 
semoochie said:
If it seems like there's a nanosecond of delay, what's really happening is that the analog is out of sync with the digital. The digital signal is by design, delayed. The analog signal is supposed to be delayed the same amount and where I live, it usually is. If you really can't tell the difference between the analog and digital signals then I suspect that the processing is all wrong. Among other things, it has a tight bass and crisp, clear highs, similar to a CD that I can clearly hear even at freeway speeds. I never have a dropout unless the analog signal is so weak, it can't grab on to the signal and that only happens when I'm too far away(over 40 miles)or behind a series of hills and even then, the analog signal has to be weakened. Try that with analog!

There is also a delay on the analog sound when played through an HD Radio. Even the audio signal gets processed through the DSP.
 
I have a BA Receptor that I use to output audio from my HDTV in a home theater setup. The Receptor has excellent sound on analog, stereo in, and IBOC (but not AM). The difference is significantly noticable on some FM stations. My local classical/NPR station has a remarkable difference where I can hear additional notes that cannot be heard with just the analog signal. Yes, I have compared by disconnecting the antenna. I can also notice a difference on hip hop and urban stations broadcasting in HD even though I am not a fan of that style of music. I have not noticed much if any difference on country or pop stations. I have been told that this is because the music is processed and optimized by the record companies to sound better on analog radio.

Stations are broadcasting IBOC signals at 1/100 of their designated analog signals. From what I understand, the FCC will be allowing them to increase this to 1/10 in the future after the experimental stage.

Something else to consider, Sirius and XM are losing money. Even if the merger happens, it may not fix their problems. Clear Channel, Cox, CBS Radio, Cumulus, etc. are not in as bad economic shape.
 
The last I heard, increasing power was still in the discussion stage. The reason for this power level is because it is intended to cover the 60dbu analog contour of the station. That is the extent of coverage(in Zone II. Zone I is 54dbu.)Any more than that is considered bonus coverage and only exists when there don't happen to be any other stations within range to interfere.
 
semoochie said:
The last I heard, increasing power was still in the discussion stage. The reason for this power level is because it is intended to cover the 60dbu analog contour of the station. That is the extent of coverage(in Zone II. Zone I is 54dbu.)Any more than that is considered bonus coverage and only exists when there don't happen to be any other stations within range to interfere.

Actually, I understand the -20 db level was chosen because that is the point where the trade off between adjacent channel interference and performance seemed workable. Right now, complaints of interference on FM seem to be fairly rare. If FM stations are allowed an IBOC transmitting level of 1/10 their power, it is likely that there will be significant interference problems. Ibiquity knows that from their experimental trials. That's why they asked for the 1/100 power level. It was the most they thought they could get away with. If it would have worked with no problems at more power, you can be fairly sure that they would have asked for it up front. After all, they did start with a blank sheet of paper.
 
Chuck said:
semoochie said:
The last I heard, increasing power was still in the discussion stage. The reason for this power level is because it is intended to cover the 60dbu analog contour of the station. That is the extent of coverage(in Zone II. Zone I is 54dbu.)Any more than that is considered bonus coverage and only exists when there don't happen to be any other stations within range to interfere.

Actually, I understand the -20 db level was chosen because that is the point where the trade off between adjacent channel interference and performance seemed workable. Right now, complaints of interference on FM seem to be fairly rare. If FM stations are allowed an IBOC transmitting level of 1/10 their power, it is likely that there will be significant interference problems. Ibiquity knows that from their experimental trials. That's why they asked for the 1/100 power level. It was the most they thought they could get away with. If it would have worked with no problems at more power, you can be fairly sure that they would have asked for it up front. After all, they did start with a blank sheet of paper.

Well, what I hope is that the power can be increased, but would like to see that happen only after the stations get their content right. Make sure that the multicast stations are setup and with good source and get the customers. The more HD stations there are the less the interfearance would be a problem, right? (I don't know, I am no expert in these areas.)
 
MasterTheseus said:
Well, what I hope is that the power can be increased, but would like to see that happen only after the stations get their content right. Make sure that the multicast stations are setup and with good source and get the customers. The more HD stations there are the less the interfearance would be a problem, right? (I don't know, I am no expert in these areas.)

Actually, no. The more stations that broadcast in HD, the more interference there will be. That will be quite a challenge for companies like Sangean who want to produce state of the art radios. It will spell disaster for the billions of existing analog radios that are not equipped to cope with the difficult times ahead.

Under the current plan, that interference from HD will be outside of that station's "protected contour," so the stations who receive the interference have no recourse. They just end up with a reduced coverage area. By law, radio stations are not entitled to all the territory they actually cover. Yet. they have enjoyed that coverage for a long time. For some, it will be a rude awakening to find out just how "local" they really are. That is one of the major beefs some broadcasters (and listeners) have with HD radio. It is perfectly legal, but many consider it as hitting below the belt.

By most prognostications, an HD (digital) signal running at 10% of the analog power, should be fairly similar in coverage and building penetration to their existing 10 times more powerful analog signal. Digital broadcasting is more robust than analog at lower power levels. The only way a power increase for HD will work without drowning out its analog neighbors is if all stations simultaneously converted to digital. If that happened, most likely, all would be fine. But that is not what is happening. The FCC has not mandated a shut off of analog radio, so this will be a long term problem. We are destined to having a hybrid system for many years, probably well past my lifetime. At best, HD is a huge compromise that attempts to put too much in too little bandwidth.
 
MasterTheseus said:
Chuck said:
semoochie said:
The last I heard, increasing power was still in the discussion stage. The reason for this power level is because it is intended to cover the 60dbu analog contour of the station. That is the extent of coverage(in Zone II. Zone I is 54dbu.)Any more than that is considered bonus coverage and only exists when there don't happen to be any other stations within range to interfere.

Actually, I understand the -20 db level was chosen because that is the point where the trade off between adjacent channel interference and performance seemed workable. Right now, complaints of interference on FM seem to be fairly rare. If FM stations are allowed an IBOC transmitting level of 1/10 their power, it is likely that there will be significant interference problems. Ibiquity knows that from their experimental trials. That's why they asked for the 1/100 power level. It was the most they thought they could get away with. If it would have worked with no problems at more power, you can be fairly sure that they would have asked for it up front. After all, they did start with a blank sheet of paper.

Well, what I hope is that the power can be increased, but would like to see that happen only after the stations get their content right. Make sure that the multicast stations are setup and with good source and get the customers. The more HD stations there are the less the interfearance would be a problem, right? (I don't know, I am no expert in these areas.)

On today's crowded AM and FM bands, significantly higher powered digital HD radio transmissions would just result in much more analog interference and HD stations jamming each other, with little real benefit. Higher digital HD power just means much more digital destruction of both analog and HD radio.
Two or more competing digital signals just results in an undecodeble digital jumble of scrambled bits.
Try unscrambling an egg and you'll get a better appreciation of the HD radio digital dilemma.
 
MasterTheseus said:
Well, what I hope is that the power can be increased, but would like to see that happen only after the stations get their content right...

With all due respect MasterTheseus... [1] “Content” is a non-issue and is irrelevant to the technical reality. [2] It does not strike me as “unusual” that the representative of an enterprise that markets radio receivers [“HD”-capable radios specifically – given their clearly-established “reception disappointment”] would be hoping for nearly-any regulatory position that would advantage the potential reception ability of their product. The operative word here is “advantage” – and here’s the problem... Increased power [and the resulting ease of reception on “garden variety” radios] brings that unfortunate bedfellow known as “interference” along with it. You need-only look to the AM band with issues regarding “nighttime service” as sterling proof of this. A “fast ‘n loose” attitude with regards to the allocation table; intermediate and mixed-class power appropriations [“shoe-horned” stations]; and now even IBOC are mounting a similar fate on the FM band.

In technical circles, this is known as a “trade-off”, and those with admirable technical credentials CONSTANTLY remind us that “You CAN’T fool Mother Nature.” There is no better paradigm to illustrate this than basic radio propagation. There are equal-opportunity offenders on BOTH sides of the fence. I’m sure that the likes of Sangean are called upon to build a “better radio”. Is that simply a more sensitive radio with a demure antenna that invites RF overload and unrelated RFI from devices in the home and auto environments? Is that a more selective radio [a very-important spec given the existence of IBOC carriers on FM] that compromises FM capture ratio, stereo separation, and distortion performance? Persons like Tom Wells [and myself] enjoy AM radios with a wide IF bandwidth; but at what expense to the casual listener less-likely to tolerate adjacent-channel interference?

Long ago, the practical interference limit on both AM and FM was exceeded... A further increase WILL only drive the broader public to less-challenged mediums. Crudely put: “IBOC is a HOG rolling in mud” – the key is to carefully-limit the amount of mud it is permitted to displace.
 
Brief excerpts of conversation at another Radio Shack:

Customer: Can I hear HD radio?
Store Manager: No. We have tried, but are not able to get any HD stations in the store.
C: How many have you sold?
SM: One, but it was returned.
C: Why?
SM: No HD reception in any room of the (buyers) house.
C: None at all?
SM: Well, he did try connecting it to his TV antenna and got one or two HD stations intermittently, but that was not in the room he wanted to use the HD radio.
C: What did he say when he returned the HD radio?
SM: He was not going to string antenna wires all over the house just to get a couple of HD radio stations, some times.
C: How long have you had HD radios to sell, since last Thanksgiving?
SM: Longer then that.
 
SUPERCASTER said:
Brief excerpts of conversation at another Radio Shack:

Customer: Can I hear HD radio?
Store Manager: No. We have tried, but are not able to get any HD stations in the store.
C: How many have you sold?
SM: One, but it was returned.
C: Why?
SM: No HD reception in any room of the (buyers) house.
C: None at all?
SM: Well, he did try connecting it to his TV antenna and got one or two HD stations intermittently, but that was not in the room he wanted to use the HD radio.
C: What did he say when he returned the HD radio?
SM: He was not going to string antenna wires all over the house just to get a couple of HD radio stations, some times.
C: How long have you had HD radios to sell, since last Thanksgiving?
SM: Longer then that.

Sounds like the story at my Radio Shack, except it was MY radio that was the one radio bought and returned since the Holidays.

The guy at the store actually admitted reception sucked on those things! 8)
 
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