I've been reading a lot of posts by people who think they can brand advertisers of Jack 101 as haters of Cousin Brucie. First I think its ridiculous to say that advertisers of Jack hates Cousin Brucie. Advertisers do not make business decision based on hating Cousin Brucie. Advertisers want to reach the people who will listen to Jack. Trying to brand them as Cousin Bruce haters is like calling them anti American. It is disgraceful that a tiny minority of people are stooping to this level. Framing the issue of a advertising on a radio station as a matter of being a hater of someone is shameful. CBS FM is now Jack 101. As much as oldies fans may not like it, it's a done deal. Get over it.
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Advertiser boycott
- Thread starter RobertGoldberg
- Start date
> I've been reading a lot of posts by people who think they
> can brand advertisers of Jack 101 as haters of Cousin
> Brucie. First I think its ridiculous to say that
> advertisers of Jack hates Cousin Brucie. Advertisers do not
> make business decision based on hating Cousin Brucie.
> Advertisers want to reach the people who will listen to
> Jack. Trying to brand them as Cousin Bruce haters is like
> calling them anti American. It is disgraceful that a tiny
> minority of people are stooping to this level. Framing the
> issue of a advertising on a radio station as a matter of
> being a hater of someone is shameful. CBS FM is now Jack
> 101. As much as oldies fans may not like it, it's a done
> deal. Get over it.
>
Couldn't agree with you more except for your last line. The reason people are feeling the way they do about the loss of CBS FM proves what a personal medium radio is. Change in one's life, especially in a relationship that has been a long one is very hard for people to deal with. They'll eventually "get over it"
but the way they're acting at the moment is how they're dealing with it.
Give'em time... Of course it might help if they can find another oldies outlet to ease the pain. But for a lot of people who love the format, the personalities (like Cousin Brucie) are just as important to them.
Remember too that CBS-FM was a number 8 station in the number one market.
That translates to a lot of loyal listeners who are feeling abandoned at the moment.
> can brand advertisers of Jack 101 as haters of Cousin
> Brucie. First I think its ridiculous to say that
> advertisers of Jack hates Cousin Brucie. Advertisers do not
> make business decision based on hating Cousin Brucie.
> Advertisers want to reach the people who will listen to
> Jack. Trying to brand them as Cousin Bruce haters is like
> calling them anti American. It is disgraceful that a tiny
> minority of people are stooping to this level. Framing the
> issue of a advertising on a radio station as a matter of
> being a hater of someone is shameful. CBS FM is now Jack
> 101. As much as oldies fans may not like it, it's a done
> deal. Get over it.
>
Couldn't agree with you more except for your last line. The reason people are feeling the way they do about the loss of CBS FM proves what a personal medium radio is. Change in one's life, especially in a relationship that has been a long one is very hard for people to deal with. They'll eventually "get over it"
but the way they're acting at the moment is how they're dealing with it.
Give'em time... Of course it might help if they can find another oldies outlet to ease the pain. But for a lot of people who love the format, the personalities (like Cousin Brucie) are just as important to them.
Remember too that CBS-FM was a number 8 station in the number one market.
That translates to a lot of loyal listeners who are feeling abandoned at the moment.
A
autopaint-1
Guest
There are also those of us who have worked with some of the people at CBS FM over the years and feel that giving and employee of a radio station which was basically top 10 and which earned 34 million dollars last year less than one hours warning before being dismissed, especially after 30 or so years of employment, is a little harsh. Oh, they were offered jobs on their streaming site, in a non union position. Talk about adding insult to injury. Infinity should be ashamed of itself.
> There are also those of us who have worked with some of the
> people at CBS FM over the years and feel that giving and
> employee of a radio station which was basically top 10 and
> which earned 34 million dollars last year less than one
> hours warning before being dismissed, especially after 30 or
> so years of employment, is a little harsh. Oh, they were
> offered jobs on their streaming site, in a non union
> position. Talk about adding insult to injury. Infinity
> should be ashamed of itself.
>
Couldn't agree with you more. Pretty shabby treatment to be sure. Infinity would most likely argue that they were trying to keep the news a secret until they were ready to go. But as they've proven before, they don't know how to treat valued employees. It's a mentality that's trickled down from the people that run the company.
> people at CBS FM over the years and feel that giving and
> employee of a radio station which was basically top 10 and
> which earned 34 million dollars last year less than one
> hours warning before being dismissed, especially after 30 or
> so years of employment, is a little harsh. Oh, they were
> offered jobs on their streaming site, in a non union
> position. Talk about adding insult to injury. Infinity
> should be ashamed of itself.
>
Couldn't agree with you more. Pretty shabby treatment to be sure. Infinity would most likely argue that they were trying to keep the news a secret until they were ready to go. But as they've proven before, they don't know how to treat valued employees. It's a mentality that's trickled down from the people that run the company.
Don't forget that all of the DJ's there were under contract and are still getting paid. Where was the outcry for every DJ who's gotten fired in past been? This is what gets me, the hypocrisy of this. Because it's Cousin Brucie, a millionare? I grew up with Cousin Brucie and I wish him all the best but Brucie and all the jocks at CBS FM were very well paid, much better than most people I'm sure. They are all adults will survive just fine.
Infinity is the first company to change formats and let people go on a moments notice. They won't be the last.
Infinity is the first company to change formats and let people go on a moments notice. They won't be the last.
Re: Advertiser's don't care
> There are also those of us who have worked with some of the
> people at CBS FM over the years and feel that giving and
> employee of a radio station which was basically top 10
Not in sales demos... which was the problem.
> and
> which earned 34 million dollars last year
They BILLED $34 million. they did NOT earn $34 million, unless they had no expenses at all.
> less than one
> hours warning before being dismissed, especially after 30 or
> so years of employment, is a little harsh.
But normal in all fields of entertainment.
> Oh, they were
> offered jobs on their streaming site, in a non union
> position. Talk about adding insult to injury. Infinity
> should be ashamed of itself.
Why? They are looking out for the company, not on individual station, which was on the skids for many years.
> There are also those of us who have worked with some of the
> people at CBS FM over the years and feel that giving and
> employee of a radio station which was basically top 10
Not in sales demos... which was the problem.
> and
> which earned 34 million dollars last year
They BILLED $34 million. they did NOT earn $34 million, unless they had no expenses at all.
> less than one
> hours warning before being dismissed, especially after 30 or
> so years of employment, is a little harsh.
But normal in all fields of entertainment.
> Oh, they were
> offered jobs on their streaming site, in a non union
> position. Talk about adding insult to injury. Infinity
> should be ashamed of itself.
Why? They are looking out for the company, not on individual station, which was on the skids for many years.
A
autopaint-1
Guest
> Don't forget that all of the DJ's there were under contract
> and are still getting paid. Where was the outcry for every
> DJ who's gotten fired in past been? This is what gets me,
> the hypocrisy of this. Because it's Cousin Brucie, a
> millionare? I grew up with Cousin Brucie and I wish him all
> the best but Brucie and all the jocks at CBS FM were very
> well paid, much better than most people I'm sure. They are
> all adults will survive just fine.
>
>
> Infinity is the first company to change formats and let
> people go on a moments notice. They won't be the last.
>
You are wrong in this case Robert. Most of the jocks receive severence and nothing more. They did not have personal service contracts. As I've said I know people who work at the station and have access to such infornation. As to Bruce who did have a personal contract, what does his financial position have to do with what I said in my post. Put yourself in his position. You work for a company for over 20 years and all of a sudden with no warning they fire you, for no apparent reason. This isn't some small market station made up of kids with little experience. This is how these people earned a living to support their families and themselves. You mention Bruce but failed to talk about the news staff, the support staff, music librarian, board ops, production people. They are all gone as far as I know. Infinity had every right to do what it did with it's properties. However, it was wrong to give long time employees such short notice, especially after 30 years of service for some people. This kind of action had never been the case st CBS or at broadcast facilities at this level. WCBS FM wasn't some small time rock and roll station with weak numbers. What Infinity did was a disgrace to the industry.
> and are still getting paid. Where was the outcry for every
> DJ who's gotten fired in past been? This is what gets me,
> the hypocrisy of this. Because it's Cousin Brucie, a
> millionare? I grew up with Cousin Brucie and I wish him all
> the best but Brucie and all the jocks at CBS FM were very
> well paid, much better than most people I'm sure. They are
> all adults will survive just fine.
>
>
> Infinity is the first company to change formats and let
> people go on a moments notice. They won't be the last.
>
You are wrong in this case Robert. Most of the jocks receive severence and nothing more. They did not have personal service contracts. As I've said I know people who work at the station and have access to such infornation. As to Bruce who did have a personal contract, what does his financial position have to do with what I said in my post. Put yourself in his position. You work for a company for over 20 years and all of a sudden with no warning they fire you, for no apparent reason. This isn't some small market station made up of kids with little experience. This is how these people earned a living to support their families and themselves. You mention Bruce but failed to talk about the news staff, the support staff, music librarian, board ops, production people. They are all gone as far as I know. Infinity had every right to do what it did with it's properties. However, it was wrong to give long time employees such short notice, especially after 30 years of service for some people. This kind of action had never been the case st CBS or at broadcast facilities at this level. WCBS FM wasn't some small time rock and roll station with weak numbers. What Infinity did was a disgrace to the industry.
A
autopaint-1
Guest
Re: Advertiser's don't care
>
>
> They BILLED $34 million. they did NOT earn $34 million,
> unless they had no expenses at all.
Yes Billed is correct. Let me tell you that WCBS FM was within the top 10 stations Billing at #11 in NYC and it wasn't that they were losing money. They were enormously popular and profitable. Their expenses were minimal at best. I've been given salery information for Harry Harrison. I will not post it here. Suffice it to say he wasn't earning BIG money relative to many other NY area personalities.
>
> > less than one
> > hours warning before being dismissed, especially after 30
> or
> > so years of employment, is a little harsh.
>
> But normal in all fields of entertainment.
Maybe in the sticks not normal for CBS. I know CBS radio is no longer what it once was. That doesn't lessen the shock when long term friends lose their jobs with no warning.
>
> > Oh, they were
> > offered jobs on their streaming site, in a non union
> > position. Talk about adding insult to injury. Infinity
> > should be ashamed of itself.
>
> Why? They are looking out for the company, not on individual
> station, which was on the skids for many years.
Are you a New Yorker? Do you live in NYC? If not, you have no idea what you are talking about. Take a look at these numbers and lets talk profitability.
1. WLTW $70.2 million (1)
2. WINS $60.6 million (7)
3. WCBS-AM $55.7 million (17)
4. WFAN $52.5 million (20)
5. WXRK $52.2 million (12)
6. WHTZ $48.6 million (6)
7. WQHT $40.8 million (4)
8. WPLJ $39.6 million (20)
9. WKTU $38.4 million (14)
10. WSKQ $36.9 million (2)
11. WCBS-FM $34.1 million (9)
12. WAXQ $33.5 million (10)
13. WRKS $28.8 million (3)
14. WQCD $27 million (16)
15. WBLS $25.5 million (13)
16. WABC $24 million (8)
17. WWPR $23.9 million (5)
18. WOR $19.6 million (19)
19. WQXR $15.4 million (15)
20. WPAT-FM $14.8 million (10)
21. WMCA $8.3 million (36)
22. WNEW $7.9 million (22)
23. WEPN $7.8 million (29)
24. WADO $7.7 million (23)
25. WBBR $5.1 million (30)
26. WCAA $4.1 million (18)
27. WLIB $4 million (24)
28. WWRL $2.7 million (36)
29. WQEW $1.9 million
Look at WNEW's earnings. WXRK will look similar once Stern leaves. They didn't have to change CBS FM and if they were so intent on the change it would have been sensitive to the staff and audience if they had done what WABC did in the 80's, allow the staff to say their goodbyes. NY isn't Lexington. These guys are pro's and should have been allowed to say goodbye.
>
>
>
> They BILLED $34 million. they did NOT earn $34 million,
> unless they had no expenses at all.
Yes Billed is correct. Let me tell you that WCBS FM was within the top 10 stations Billing at #11 in NYC and it wasn't that they were losing money. They were enormously popular and profitable. Their expenses were minimal at best. I've been given salery information for Harry Harrison. I will not post it here. Suffice it to say he wasn't earning BIG money relative to many other NY area personalities.
>
> > less than one
> > hours warning before being dismissed, especially after 30
> or
> > so years of employment, is a little harsh.
>
> But normal in all fields of entertainment.
Maybe in the sticks not normal for CBS. I know CBS radio is no longer what it once was. That doesn't lessen the shock when long term friends lose their jobs with no warning.
>
> > Oh, they were
> > offered jobs on their streaming site, in a non union
> > position. Talk about adding insult to injury. Infinity
> > should be ashamed of itself.
>
> Why? They are looking out for the company, not on individual
> station, which was on the skids for many years.
Are you a New Yorker? Do you live in NYC? If not, you have no idea what you are talking about. Take a look at these numbers and lets talk profitability.
1. WLTW $70.2 million (1)
2. WINS $60.6 million (7)
3. WCBS-AM $55.7 million (17)
4. WFAN $52.5 million (20)
5. WXRK $52.2 million (12)
6. WHTZ $48.6 million (6)
7. WQHT $40.8 million (4)
8. WPLJ $39.6 million (20)
9. WKTU $38.4 million (14)
10. WSKQ $36.9 million (2)
11. WCBS-FM $34.1 million (9)
12. WAXQ $33.5 million (10)
13. WRKS $28.8 million (3)
14. WQCD $27 million (16)
15. WBLS $25.5 million (13)
16. WABC $24 million (8)
17. WWPR $23.9 million (5)
18. WOR $19.6 million (19)
19. WQXR $15.4 million (15)
20. WPAT-FM $14.8 million (10)
21. WMCA $8.3 million (36)
22. WNEW $7.9 million (22)
23. WEPN $7.8 million (29)
24. WADO $7.7 million (23)
25. WBBR $5.1 million (30)
26. WCAA $4.1 million (18)
27. WLIB $4 million (24)
28. WWRL $2.7 million (36)
29. WQEW $1.9 million
Look at WNEW's earnings. WXRK will look similar once Stern leaves. They didn't have to change CBS FM and if they were so intent on the change it would have been sensitive to the staff and audience if they had done what WABC did in the 80's, allow the staff to say their goodbyes. NY isn't Lexington. These guys are pro's and should have been allowed to say goodbye.
>
M
Mouth1390
Guest
Re: Advertiser's don't care
> > There are also those of us who have worked with some of
> the
> > people at CBS FM over the years and feel that giving and
> > employee of a radio station which was basically top 10
>
> Not in sales demos... which was the problem.
>
> > and
> > which earned 34 million dollars last year
>
>
> They BILLED $34 million. they did NOT earn $34 million,
> unless they had no expenses at all.
>
> > less than one
> > hours warning before being dismissed, especially after 30
> or
> > so years of employment, is a little harsh.
>
> But normal in all fields of entertainment.
>
> > Oh, they were
> > offered jobs on their streaming site, in a non union
> > position. Talk about adding insult to injury. Infinity
> > should be ashamed of itself.
>
> Why? They are looking out for the company, not on individual
> station, which was on the skids for many years.
>
David, While I agree that the dismissal without warning is typical in broadcasting and most entertainment fields, a radio station billing $ 34 million hardly sounds like it's on the skids to me. Can it do more ? Of course, 1010 WINS, WCBS-AM and WLTW all did considerably more. What I found interestin g is that WCBS and WINS are decidedly older appeal stations.
So while I agree that the move was not 'personal' in nature, I wonder about how well advised it was. Your thoughts, please.
> > There are also those of us who have worked with some of
> the
> > people at CBS FM over the years and feel that giving and
> > employee of a radio station which was basically top 10
>
> Not in sales demos... which was the problem.
>
> > and
> > which earned 34 million dollars last year
>
>
> They BILLED $34 million. they did NOT earn $34 million,
> unless they had no expenses at all.
>
> > less than one
> > hours warning before being dismissed, especially after 30
> or
> > so years of employment, is a little harsh.
>
> But normal in all fields of entertainment.
>
> > Oh, they were
> > offered jobs on their streaming site, in a non union
> > position. Talk about adding insult to injury. Infinity
> > should be ashamed of itself.
>
> Why? They are looking out for the company, not on individual
> station, which was on the skids for many years.
>
David, While I agree that the dismissal without warning is typical in broadcasting and most entertainment fields, a radio station billing $ 34 million hardly sounds like it's on the skids to me. Can it do more ? Of course, 1010 WINS, WCBS-AM and WLTW all did considerably more. What I found interestin g is that WCBS and WINS are decidedly older appeal stations.
So while I agree that the move was not 'personal' in nature, I wonder about how well advised it was. Your thoughts, please.
Bob, what is the issue? Is the issue that the people at the station weren't given notice? Is it that some had been there a long time? Is it that CBS FM isn't a small time station? Or is it that they changed formats?
I don't think the size of CBS FM is or should be an issue. Don't people at all stations, big or small deserve the same kind of consideration? If so, why no outcry when this kind of thing happens at other places? You can't say it's CBS FM and it's different than other places or somehow the people there deserve to be treated differently than people at other stations.
As far as Cousin Brucie or any of the other DJ's, they are all adults and this is just part of life. In every business, people with families get fired everyday by major as well as small time companies. What makes the people at CBS FM so special that people are trying to boycott the station and it's Advertisers?
You say I mentioned Bruce but failed to talk about the news staff, the support staff, music librarian, board ops, production people. They are all gone as far as you know. How do you know they weren't or won't be offered jobs with Infinity at other stations? I doubt every person who worked for CBS FM was let go.
Get what I'm saying? I understand that it's a lousy thing that was done and it was handled badly. I'm sorry for all involved who lost their jobs but no one cares if I lose my job because of some executive decision. I'm certainly not going to lose any sleep over the comings and goings at CBS FM or any other radio station.
I don't think the size of CBS FM is or should be an issue. Don't people at all stations, big or small deserve the same kind of consideration? If so, why no outcry when this kind of thing happens at other places? You can't say it's CBS FM and it's different than other places or somehow the people there deserve to be treated differently than people at other stations.
As far as Cousin Brucie or any of the other DJ's, they are all adults and this is just part of life. In every business, people with families get fired everyday by major as well as small time companies. What makes the people at CBS FM so special that people are trying to boycott the station and it's Advertisers?
You say I mentioned Bruce but failed to talk about the news staff, the support staff, music librarian, board ops, production people. They are all gone as far as you know. How do you know they weren't or won't be offered jobs with Infinity at other stations? I doubt every person who worked for CBS FM was let go.
Get what I'm saying? I understand that it's a lousy thing that was done and it was handled badly. I'm sorry for all involved who lost their jobs but no one cares if I lose my job because of some executive decision. I'm certainly not going to lose any sleep over the comings and goings at CBS FM or any other radio station.
D
DowntownHazleton
Guest
> > Don't forget that all of the DJ's there were under
> contract
> > and are still getting paid. Where was the outcry for
> every
> > DJ who's gotten fired in past been? This is what gets me,
>
> > the hypocrisy of this. Because it's Cousin Brucie, a
> > millionare? I grew up with Cousin Brucie and I wish him
> all
> > the best but Brucie and all the jocks at CBS FM were very
> > well paid, much better than most people I'm sure. They
> are
> > all adults will survive just fine.
> >
> >
> > Infinity is the first company to change formats and let
> > people go on a moments notice. They won't be the last.
> >
> You are wrong in this case Robert. Most of the jocks receive
> severence and nothing more. They did not have personal
> service contracts. As I've said I know people who work at
> the station and have access to such infornation. As to Bruce
> who did have a personal contract, what does his financial
> position have to do with what I said in my post. Put
> yourself in his position. You work for a company for over 20
> years and all of a sudden with no warning they fire you, for
> no apparent reason. This isn't some small market station
> made up of kids with little experience. This is how these
> people earned a living to support their families and
> themselves. You mention Bruce but failed to talk about the
> news staff, the support staff, music librarian, board ops,
> production people. They are all gone as far as I know.
> Infinity had every right to do what it did with it's
> properties. However, it was wrong to give long time
> employees such short notice, especially after 30 years of
> service for some people. This kind of action had never been
> the case st CBS or at broadcast facilities at this level.
> WCBS FM wasn't some small time rock and roll station with
> weak numbers. What Infinity did was a disgrace to the
> industry.
>
While many people are shocked at what happened to Cousin Brucie, what happened to him and the WCBS-FM staff is nothing more than what is happening all over the country in industry after industry. United has some problems..no trouble, just go to court and dump all the pensions and health care for people who have labored faithfully for years and years. Sorry you're stuck..it's just a financial thing..nothing personal. IBM has long-time employees training replacements who will be working for 90% less than they are in India. GM plans to lay off 25,000 people in the next few years, and now the news is that GM's pension plan is woefully under-funded. Will they be the next group to dump their employees pensions?? The people who are running corporate America have virtually not one shread of decency, as long as they can keep their money and their golden parachutes no one else matters. It's not just WCBS-FM..it's everywhere and the outrage should be also.
> contract
> > and are still getting paid. Where was the outcry for
> every
> > DJ who's gotten fired in past been? This is what gets me,
>
> > the hypocrisy of this. Because it's Cousin Brucie, a
> > millionare? I grew up with Cousin Brucie and I wish him
> all
> > the best but Brucie and all the jocks at CBS FM were very
> > well paid, much better than most people I'm sure. They
> are
> > all adults will survive just fine.
> >
> >
> > Infinity is the first company to change formats and let
> > people go on a moments notice. They won't be the last.
> >
> You are wrong in this case Robert. Most of the jocks receive
> severence and nothing more. They did not have personal
> service contracts. As I've said I know people who work at
> the station and have access to such infornation. As to Bruce
> who did have a personal contract, what does his financial
> position have to do with what I said in my post. Put
> yourself in his position. You work for a company for over 20
> years and all of a sudden with no warning they fire you, for
> no apparent reason. This isn't some small market station
> made up of kids with little experience. This is how these
> people earned a living to support their families and
> themselves. You mention Bruce but failed to talk about the
> news staff, the support staff, music librarian, board ops,
> production people. They are all gone as far as I know.
> Infinity had every right to do what it did with it's
> properties. However, it was wrong to give long time
> employees such short notice, especially after 30 years of
> service for some people. This kind of action had never been
> the case st CBS or at broadcast facilities at this level.
> WCBS FM wasn't some small time rock and roll station with
> weak numbers. What Infinity did was a disgrace to the
> industry.
>
While many people are shocked at what happened to Cousin Brucie, what happened to him and the WCBS-FM staff is nothing more than what is happening all over the country in industry after industry. United has some problems..no trouble, just go to court and dump all the pensions and health care for people who have labored faithfully for years and years. Sorry you're stuck..it's just a financial thing..nothing personal. IBM has long-time employees training replacements who will be working for 90% less than they are in India. GM plans to lay off 25,000 people in the next few years, and now the news is that GM's pension plan is woefully under-funded. Will they be the next group to dump their employees pensions?? The people who are running corporate America have virtually not one shread of decency, as long as they can keep their money and their golden parachutes no one else matters. It's not just WCBS-FM..it's everywhere and the outrage should be also.
Re: Advertiser's don't care
> >
> >
> > They BILLED $34 million. they did NOT earn $34 million,
> > unless they had no expenses at all.
>
> Yes Billed is correct. Let me tell you that WCBS FM was
> within the top 10 stations Billing at #11 in NYC and it
> wasn't that they were losing money.
without adjustment for inflation, WCBS-FM has declined in revenue by 22% since 2000. The market is up 18% since 1999. So the station, indexed against the market is off nearly 40%. This is a severe decline, and an invitation for a format shift.
> They were enormously
> popular and profitable.
They had lost nearly half the 25-54 listeners in the last 10 years, were off in billings, decreasingly profitable and declining more each year, with no prospect at all of a recovery due to the ageing demos of the format.
> Their expenses were minimal at best.
> I've been given salery information for Harry Harrison.
The biggest expense at a radio station is sales, and often promotion and marketing is greater than salaris. Add in administration, legal, insurance, antenna rental, music licences, engineering, etc., etc. and you can see that what the jocs made is only a small part.
>I
> will not post it here. Suffice it to say he wasn't earning
> BIG money relative to many other NY area personalities.
So? That is not the biggest expense anyway.
> >
> > But normal in all fields of entertainment.
>
> Maybe in the sticks not normal for CBS. I know CBS radio is
> no longer what it once was. That doesn't lessen the shock
> when long term friends lose their jobs with no warning.
They have done overnight format changes before. It's just tha this one seems to have affected you personally, which is a shame. It is normal in the industry, CBS included.
> >
> > > Oh, they were
> > > offered jobs on their streaming site, in a non union
> > > position. Talk about adding insult to injury. Infinity
> > > should be ashamed of itself.
> >
> > Why? They are looking out for the company, not on
> individual
> > station, which was on the skids for many years.
>
>
> Are you a New Yorker? Do you live in NYC?
I work in several markets, NY being one of them, and have worked in the market for over a decade. In addition, I had the original purchase agreement for Freindly Frost in 1978...
> If not, you have
> no idea what you are talking about.
How do you know?
> Take a look at these
> numbers and lets talk profitability.
These are billing numbers. There is no trailing or leading trending, and the whole issue with WCBS-FM is its trailing cash flow, billing and ratings are all declining very fast.
>
> Look at WNEW's earnings.
We have no idea what WNEW's earnings are. All we can see are billings. Do you know the difference?
WNEW is reported in Inside Radio to be increasing billing on better demos, so this is not necessarily a good comparison.
> WXRK will look similar once Stern
> leaves.
}
I am pretty sure they have a plan here, too.
> They didn't have to change CBS FM
If you look at the evidence, yes they did.
> and if they were
> so intent on the change it would have been sensitive to the
> staff and audience if they had done what WABC did in the
> 80's, allow the staff to say their goodbyes. NY isn't
> Lexington. These guys are pro's and should have been allowed
> to say goodbye.
Why? It contributes nothing to the listeners except to upset them. Just let them move on. No one needs a swan song... in fact, it is kind of morbid to think about.
>
> >
>
> >
> >
> > They BILLED $34 million. they did NOT earn $34 million,
> > unless they had no expenses at all.
>
> Yes Billed is correct. Let me tell you that WCBS FM was
> within the top 10 stations Billing at #11 in NYC and it
> wasn't that they were losing money.
without adjustment for inflation, WCBS-FM has declined in revenue by 22% since 2000. The market is up 18% since 1999. So the station, indexed against the market is off nearly 40%. This is a severe decline, and an invitation for a format shift.
> They were enormously
> popular and profitable.
They had lost nearly half the 25-54 listeners in the last 10 years, were off in billings, decreasingly profitable and declining more each year, with no prospect at all of a recovery due to the ageing demos of the format.
> Their expenses were minimal at best.
> I've been given salery information for Harry Harrison.
The biggest expense at a radio station is sales, and often promotion and marketing is greater than salaris. Add in administration, legal, insurance, antenna rental, music licences, engineering, etc., etc. and you can see that what the jocs made is only a small part.
>I
> will not post it here. Suffice it to say he wasn't earning
> BIG money relative to many other NY area personalities.
So? That is not the biggest expense anyway.
> >
> > But normal in all fields of entertainment.
>
> Maybe in the sticks not normal for CBS. I know CBS radio is
> no longer what it once was. That doesn't lessen the shock
> when long term friends lose their jobs with no warning.
They have done overnight format changes before. It's just tha this one seems to have affected you personally, which is a shame. It is normal in the industry, CBS included.
> >
> > > Oh, they were
> > > offered jobs on their streaming site, in a non union
> > > position. Talk about adding insult to injury. Infinity
> > > should be ashamed of itself.
> >
> > Why? They are looking out for the company, not on
> individual
> > station, which was on the skids for many years.
>
>
> Are you a New Yorker? Do you live in NYC?
I work in several markets, NY being one of them, and have worked in the market for over a decade. In addition, I had the original purchase agreement for Freindly Frost in 1978...
> If not, you have
> no idea what you are talking about.
How do you know?
> Take a look at these
> numbers and lets talk profitability.
These are billing numbers. There is no trailing or leading trending, and the whole issue with WCBS-FM is its trailing cash flow, billing and ratings are all declining very fast.
>
> Look at WNEW's earnings.
We have no idea what WNEW's earnings are. All we can see are billings. Do you know the difference?
WNEW is reported in Inside Radio to be increasing billing on better demos, so this is not necessarily a good comparison.
> WXRK will look similar once Stern
> leaves.
}
I am pretty sure they have a plan here, too.
> They didn't have to change CBS FM
If you look at the evidence, yes they did.
> and if they were
> so intent on the change it would have been sensitive to the
> staff and audience if they had done what WABC did in the
> 80's, allow the staff to say their goodbyes. NY isn't
> Lexington. These guys are pro's and should have been allowed
> to say goodbye.
Why? It contributes nothing to the listeners except to upset them. Just let them move on. No one needs a swan song... in fact, it is kind of morbid to think about.
>
> >
>
> Bob, what is the issue? Is the issue that the people at the
> station weren't given notice? Is it that some had been
> there a long time? Is it that CBS FM isn't a small time
> station? Or is it that they changed formats?
>
> I don't think the size of CBS FM is or should be an issue.
> Don't people at all stations, big or small deserve the same
> kind of consideration? If so, why no outcry when this kind
> of thing happens at other places? You can't say it's CBS FM
> and it's different than other places or somehow the people
> there deserve to be treated differently than people at other
> stations.
>
> As far as Cousin Brucie or any of the other DJ's, they are
> all adults and this is just part of life. In every
> business, people with families get fired everyday by major
> as well as small time companies. What makes the people at
> CBS FM so special that people are trying to boycott the
> station and it's Advertisers?
>
>
Doubtful that everyone is gone. The station still has to have a production department. They're still running spots after all.
As to why people are so upset, again, radio is a personal medium and people build relationships that they don't always want to end. When it's not their own decision, it's like a death in the family. Emotions run high when this kind of thing happens. Oh and yes they did deserve to have the whole thing be handled better. But as you've pointed out, this happens everywhere. Too bad though isn't it?
> station weren't given notice? Is it that some had been
> there a long time? Is it that CBS FM isn't a small time
> station? Or is it that they changed formats?
>
> I don't think the size of CBS FM is or should be an issue.
> Don't people at all stations, big or small deserve the same
> kind of consideration? If so, why no outcry when this kind
> of thing happens at other places? You can't say it's CBS FM
> and it's different than other places or somehow the people
> there deserve to be treated differently than people at other
> stations.
>
> As far as Cousin Brucie or any of the other DJ's, they are
> all adults and this is just part of life. In every
> business, people with families get fired everyday by major
> as well as small time companies. What makes the people at
> CBS FM so special that people are trying to boycott the
> station and it's Advertisers?
>
>
Doubtful that everyone is gone. The station still has to have a production department. They're still running spots after all.
As to why people are so upset, again, radio is a personal medium and people build relationships that they don't always want to end. When it's not their own decision, it's like a death in the family. Emotions run high when this kind of thing happens. Oh and yes they did deserve to have the whole thing be handled better. But as you've pointed out, this happens everywhere. Too bad though isn't it?
I
Ivan
Guest
Boycotts are lame. What's next human sacrifices? If you want to make a statement, just gather 300 CBS loyalists and you can take turns at catapulting each other against the CBS building. LOL
Seriously, if there is money in the format somebody will accomodate you. I am surprised nobody has done it yet.
Is revenue generation in the Oldies format in that much trouble?
Seriously, if there is money in the format somebody will accomodate you. I am surprised nobody has done it yet.
Is revenue generation in the Oldies format in that much trouble?
A
autopaint-1
Guest
I'll say it again, I have worked profesionally with some of these people in my near 30 years in NY radio. Say what you will. It isn't easy when people you know lose their jobs. As an aside, look at the NY radio board. They have a special CBS FM board and since last Friday night there have been over 100,000 hits. To those who say, heck, it's just another format change. There aren't many stations that had the same format for over 30 years and many of the same personalities for all those years. This format change has had national coverage. Newpapers, television and network radio have covered this story. Not your typical format change. If sales didn't know how to sell this format it's the fact that people in their 40's are seen as less desireable than those in their 20's. This thinnking worked in the 60's and maybe 70's, but we are baby boomers who grew up on mass media and advertising. The adworld is using old methedology and losing out on the great masses of baby boomers. In the end theyw ill lose out on our willingness to listen to radio as opposed to the far fewer people who came after us who will be less willing to listen to commercial radio. As for me I have a 40 gig I-Pod with thousands of songs on it. If radio has rejected me, so be it. I have alternatives.
M
Mouth1390
Guest
Re: Advertiser's don't care
> > >
> > >
> > > They BILLED $34 million. they did NOT earn $34 million,
> > > unless they had no expenses at all.
> >
> > Yes Billed is correct. Let me tell you that WCBS FM was
> > within the top 10 stations Billing at #11 in NYC and it
> > wasn't that they were losing money.
>
> without adjustment for inflation, WCBS-FM has declined in
> revenue by 22% since 2000. The market is up 18% since 1999.
> So the station, indexed against the market is off nearly
> 40%. This is a severe decline, and an invitation for a
> format shift.
>
> > They were enormously
> > popular and profitable.
>
> They had lost nearly half the 25-54 listeners in the last 10
> years, were off in billings, decreasingly profitable and
> declining more each year, with no prospect at all of a
> recovery due to the ageing demos of the format.
>
> > Their expenses were minimal at best.
> > I've been given salery information for Harry Harrison.
>
> The biggest expense at a radio station is sales, and often
> promotion and marketing is greater than salaris. Add in
> administration, legal, insurance, antenna rental, music
> licences, engineering, etc., etc. and you can see that what
> the jocs made is only a small part.
>
> >I
> > will not post it here. Suffice it to say he wasn't earning
>
> > BIG money relative to many other NY area personalities.
>
> So? That is not the biggest expense anyway.
> > >
> > > But normal in all fields of entertainment.
> >
> > Maybe in the sticks not normal for CBS. I know CBS radio
> is
> > no longer what it once was. That doesn't lessen the shock
> > when long term friends lose their jobs with no warning.
>
> They have done overnight format changes before. It's just
> tha this one seems to have affected you personally, which is
> a shame. It is normal in the industry, CBS included.
> > >
> > > > Oh, they were
> > > > offered jobs on their streaming site, in a non union
> > > > position. Talk about adding insult to injury. Infinity
>
> > > > should be ashamed of itself.
> > >
> > > Why? They are looking out for the company, not on
> > individual
> > > station, which was on the skids for many years.
> >
> >
> > Are you a New Yorker? Do you live in NYC?
>
> I work in several markets, NY being one of them, and have
> worked in the market for over a decade. In addition, I had
> the original purchase agreement for Freindly Frost in
> 1978...
>
> > If not, you have
> > no idea what you are talking about.
>
> How do you know?
>
> > Take a look at these
> > numbers and lets talk profitability.
>
> These are billing numbers. There is no trailing or leading
> trending, and the whole issue with WCBS-FM is its trailing
> cash flow, billing and ratings are all declining very fast.
>
> >
> > Look at WNEW's earnings.
>
> We have no idea what WNEW's earnings are. All we can see are
> billings. Do you know the difference?
>
> WNEW is reported in Inside Radio to be increasing billing on
> better demos, so this is not necessarily a good comparison.
>
>
> > WXRK will look similar once Stern
> > leaves.
> }
> I am pretty sure they have a plan here, too.
>
> > They didn't have to change CBS FM
>
> If you look at the evidence, yes they did.
>
> > and if they were
> > so intent on the change it would have been sensitive to
> the
> > staff and audience if they had done what WABC did in the
> > 80's, allow the staff to say their goodbyes. NY isn't
> > Lexington. These guys are pro's and should have been
> allowed
> > to say goodbye.
>
> Why? It contributes nothing to the listeners except to upset
> them. Just let them move on. No one needs a swan song... in
> fact, it is kind of morbid to think about.
> >
> > >
> >
>
As always, David, you bring facts to the table and I appreciate that. I had no idea that their $ 34 million in billings is actually off from previous years. As a General Manager, that is something that one cannot ignore.
In as far as those who are now without work, while we feel for them (most of us have been in that position), they were all AFTRA and will have some sort of severance package in accordance with the union contract (which most of us never had). There is at least some comfort in knowing that a paycheck of some sort will be headed their way.
Thanks again for the insight and analysis.
> > >
> > >
> > > They BILLED $34 million. they did NOT earn $34 million,
> > > unless they had no expenses at all.
> >
> > Yes Billed is correct. Let me tell you that WCBS FM was
> > within the top 10 stations Billing at #11 in NYC and it
> > wasn't that they were losing money.
>
> without adjustment for inflation, WCBS-FM has declined in
> revenue by 22% since 2000. The market is up 18% since 1999.
> So the station, indexed against the market is off nearly
> 40%. This is a severe decline, and an invitation for a
> format shift.
>
> > They were enormously
> > popular and profitable.
>
> They had lost nearly half the 25-54 listeners in the last 10
> years, were off in billings, decreasingly profitable and
> declining more each year, with no prospect at all of a
> recovery due to the ageing demos of the format.
>
> > Their expenses were minimal at best.
> > I've been given salery information for Harry Harrison.
>
> The biggest expense at a radio station is sales, and often
> promotion and marketing is greater than salaris. Add in
> administration, legal, insurance, antenna rental, music
> licences, engineering, etc., etc. and you can see that what
> the jocs made is only a small part.
>
> >I
> > will not post it here. Suffice it to say he wasn't earning
>
> > BIG money relative to many other NY area personalities.
>
> So? That is not the biggest expense anyway.
> > >
> > > But normal in all fields of entertainment.
> >
> > Maybe in the sticks not normal for CBS. I know CBS radio
> is
> > no longer what it once was. That doesn't lessen the shock
> > when long term friends lose their jobs with no warning.
>
> They have done overnight format changes before. It's just
> tha this one seems to have affected you personally, which is
> a shame. It is normal in the industry, CBS included.
> > >
> > > > Oh, they were
> > > > offered jobs on their streaming site, in a non union
> > > > position. Talk about adding insult to injury. Infinity
>
> > > > should be ashamed of itself.
> > >
> > > Why? They are looking out for the company, not on
> > individual
> > > station, which was on the skids for many years.
> >
> >
> > Are you a New Yorker? Do you live in NYC?
>
> I work in several markets, NY being one of them, and have
> worked in the market for over a decade. In addition, I had
> the original purchase agreement for Freindly Frost in
> 1978...
>
> > If not, you have
> > no idea what you are talking about.
>
> How do you know?
>
> > Take a look at these
> > numbers and lets talk profitability.
>
> These are billing numbers. There is no trailing or leading
> trending, and the whole issue with WCBS-FM is its trailing
> cash flow, billing and ratings are all declining very fast.
>
> >
> > Look at WNEW's earnings.
>
> We have no idea what WNEW's earnings are. All we can see are
> billings. Do you know the difference?
>
> WNEW is reported in Inside Radio to be increasing billing on
> better demos, so this is not necessarily a good comparison.
>
>
> > WXRK will look similar once Stern
> > leaves.
> }
> I am pretty sure they have a plan here, too.
>
> > They didn't have to change CBS FM
>
> If you look at the evidence, yes they did.
>
> > and if they were
> > so intent on the change it would have been sensitive to
> the
> > staff and audience if they had done what WABC did in the
> > 80's, allow the staff to say their goodbyes. NY isn't
> > Lexington. These guys are pro's and should have been
> allowed
> > to say goodbye.
>
> Why? It contributes nothing to the listeners except to upset
> them. Just let them move on. No one needs a swan song... in
> fact, it is kind of morbid to think about.
> >
> > >
> >
>
As always, David, you bring facts to the table and I appreciate that. I had no idea that their $ 34 million in billings is actually off from previous years. As a General Manager, that is something that one cannot ignore.
In as far as those who are now without work, while we feel for them (most of us have been in that position), they were all AFTRA and will have some sort of severance package in accordance with the union contract (which most of us never had). There is at least some comfort in knowing that a paycheck of some sort will be headed their way.
Thanks again for the insight and analysis.
The NYRMB has turned into a juvenile message board. I've been posting there since 1998. I made my last post there during the WABC Rewound. The hypocrisy there is astonishing, especially by Sniffen. This is the same board that told people who mourned the loss of rock music at WNEW FM when it changed to Talk that, that was life. There was no board protest even tho WNEW FM was a heritage station like CBS FM. It had the same basic format with the same DJ's for over 30 years. Sniffen would let the NYRMB become an out of control free for all Infinity hate site because Sniffen never liked WNEW FM. Same thing with Standards. I can't tell you how many times Sniffen posted ad infinitum how formats that catered to older people weren't viable and that people who liked Standards should except that. Same thing with oldies for that matter. He over and over said oldies before 1964 had no place on CBS FM. Most of the regular people who've posted at NYRMB over the years are no where to be found right now. There may be 100,000 hits but there aren't 100,000 separate viewers. I'd guess the number of individual viewers is much much less. There is a lot of page refreshing going on which JACKS up the numbers.
WCBS FM deserves to be remembered. Someone else might pick up on the format. Maybe not tho. There has never been another WABC, WMCA or WNEW FM. Life goes on. People get fired. Where was the outcry when Dave Herman and Scott Muni got fired from WNEW FM? There was sadness as there should be but life went on and people got on with their lives as did Scott. We honored Dave and Scott by remembering them. If you want to honor the people at CBS FM, do so by remembering them, not by turning into a mob of haters. You wont find the Harry Harrison protesting or writing hateful posts or boycotting advertisers.
WCBS FM deserves to be remembered. Someone else might pick up on the format. Maybe not tho. There has never been another WABC, WMCA or WNEW FM. Life goes on. People get fired. Where was the outcry when Dave Herman and Scott Muni got fired from WNEW FM? There was sadness as there should be but life went on and people got on with their lives as did Scott. We honored Dave and Scott by remembering them. If you want to honor the people at CBS FM, do so by remembering them, not by turning into a mob of haters. You wont find the Harry Harrison protesting or writing hateful posts or boycotting advertisers.
A
autopaint-1
Guest
>
> WCBS FM deserves to be remembered. Someone else might pick
> up on the format. Maybe not tho. There has never been
> another WABC, WMCA or WNEW FM. Life goes on. People get
> fired. Where was the outcry when Dave Herman and Scott Muni
> got fired from WNEW FM? There was sadness as there should
> be but life went on and people got on with their lives as
> did Scott. We honored Dave and Scott by remembering them.
> If you want to honor the people at CBS FM, do so by
> remembering them, not by turning into a mob of haters. You
> wont find the Harry Harrison protesting or writing hateful
> posts or boycotting advertisers.
>
Time will tell. As for me, I give Jack maybe two or three books. New York isn't a vanilla rock market. WNEW FM, while a long time AOR station just didn't have the numbers that CBS FM had. I also know that there are enough people who were NEW listeners who seem to find a sense of delight as if, because there was no similar outcry for the loss of NEW FM, CBS FM listeners are getting what they deserve. It's all juvenile nonesense. What many people are upset about is the fact that almost no notice was given to long term air personalities. I read how that's not unusual in todays world. That doesn't make it right. Let's see what's available to the NY listener in a year.
> WCBS FM deserves to be remembered. Someone else might pick
> up on the format. Maybe not tho. There has never been
> another WABC, WMCA or WNEW FM. Life goes on. People get
> fired. Where was the outcry when Dave Herman and Scott Muni
> got fired from WNEW FM? There was sadness as there should
> be but life went on and people got on with their lives as
> did Scott. We honored Dave and Scott by remembering them.
> If you want to honor the people at CBS FM, do so by
> remembering them, not by turning into a mob of haters. You
> wont find the Harry Harrison protesting or writing hateful
> posts or boycotting advertisers.
>
Time will tell. As for me, I give Jack maybe two or three books. New York isn't a vanilla rock market. WNEW FM, while a long time AOR station just didn't have the numbers that CBS FM had. I also know that there are enough people who were NEW listeners who seem to find a sense of delight as if, because there was no similar outcry for the loss of NEW FM, CBS FM listeners are getting what they deserve. It's all juvenile nonesense. What many people are upset about is the fact that almost no notice was given to long term air personalities. I read how that's not unusual in todays world. That doesn't make it right. Let's see what's available to the NY listener in a year.
> WNEW FM, while a long time AOR station just didn't have the numbers that
CBS FM had. I also know that there are enough people who were NEW listeners who seem to find a sense of delight as if, because there was no similar outcry for the loss of NEW FM, CBS FM listeners are getting what they deserve. It's all
> What many people are upset about is the fact that almost no notice was given to long term air personalities.
Although WNEW's ratings were indefensible, that format change was executed in a classless manner. PD Garry Wall would fire a couple of jocks every few months and Opie and Anthony were allowed to ridicule them on the air. The DJ's who were still there in September 1999 were given advance notice, but the farewell show before the sign off was tacky. As much as I like Ralph Tortora, he shouldn't have been given the task of pronouncing the place where rock lives dead. Ralph's a good jock, but he wasn't part of the station's classic airstaff. Instead, they should have invited all the former and current WNEW DJ's to participate in the farewell.
CBS FM had. I also know that there are enough people who were NEW listeners who seem to find a sense of delight as if, because there was no similar outcry for the loss of NEW FM, CBS FM listeners are getting what they deserve. It's all
> What many people are upset about is the fact that almost no notice was given to long term air personalities.
Although WNEW's ratings were indefensible, that format change was executed in a classless manner. PD Garry Wall would fire a couple of jocks every few months and Opie and Anthony were allowed to ridicule them on the air. The DJ's who were still there in September 1999 were given advance notice, but the farewell show before the sign off was tacky. As much as I like Ralph Tortora, he shouldn't have been given the task of pronouncing the place where rock lives dead. Ralph's a good jock, but he wasn't part of the station's classic airstaff. Instead, they should have invited all the former and current WNEW DJ's to participate in the farewell.
- Status