Again, Agency - Client research is OFF

[davideduardo]

Oldies...

I tried to make that point to David and a few others in another post...Mr David, has a consultant's mind and it's closed as some positions in El Lay. I don't think thge guy has learned how to think outside the box and take a few risks.

Yeah, sure, whatever. You don't know, so you are making things up.

Hint: a person who puts on a format never heard in a whole continent in a market with 40 stations all the while not being even 18 at the time is definitely not playing it safe and inside the box.

 

[The Beave]

Yeah, sure, whatever. You don't know, so you are making things up.

Hint: a person who puts on a format never heard in a whole continent in a market with 40 stations all the while not being even 18 at the time is definitely not playing it safe and inside the box.

David I did Programming and Ops in the Small and Medium markets. They are somewhat different than the majors. (Phx-El Lay) There are a few midwestern markets that didn't spend the money on rocket scientests and Einstiens to tell them what the listeners did or didn't want. I had a majority of my success in those markets. Finishing #1 and no worse than #2 out of 20 stations in those books. We did have a pulse on 25-54 female and male, and we were doing battle with a CHR who was doing 12+.

 

[davideduardo]

What people want to hear today IS NOT entirely different from what people liked way back then.

No, it is totally different. Those of us who have seen thousands of titles tested know that there really are, for any one format (Oldies or Classic Hits) around 400 to 600 real hits that nearly everyone likes and which will not drive off any segment of the audience.

Tastes can change, and songs that were "hip" back 40 years ago may not have aged as well as some others, but to say the vast majority of the thousands of charted hits over a 30 year period of oldies are no longer worth listening to or desirable is pure bunk.

The most any one station plays is about a 15 to 20 year spread. And, at most, there are around 600 songs that will not do significant damage if played.

If you fall for the consultant's claim that there are only 400 hits that people will listen to from the 50s, 60s and 70s- I have a bridge in New York to sell you....oh its the same one the consultants have been shoving down the geezers throats for the last 15 years or so!! People listen to oldies to "remember", recall and enjoy life thru their music, this will never change... only the people who try to spoon feed us it has.

You are so wrong about how the business works that just reading this last paragraph is embarassing. Consultants don't pick the music, listeners do.

People listen to oldies because they like the songs... and they are familiar, singable, fun, etc. And they will tell you which ones they still want to hear and which ones they do not want to hear again.

 

[davideduardo]

David I did Programming and Ops in the Small and Medium markets. They are somewhat different than the majors. (Phx-El Lay) There are a few midwestern markets that didn't spend the money on rocket scientests and Einstiens to tell them what the listeners did or didn't want. I had a majority of my success in those markets. Finishing #1 and no worse than #2 out of 20 stations in those books. We did have a pulse on 25-54 female and male, and we were doing battle with a CHR who was doing 12+.

And this in what way responds to my post about thinking outside the box?

Nobody does 12+, either.

 

[oldies76]

DavidEduardo People listen to oldies because they like the songs... and they are familiar, singable, fun, etc. And they will tell you which ones they still want to hear and which ones they do not want to hear again.

Are you so sure about this? Once again..you CANNOT speak the minds of the listeners, that virtually have no say in what songs get aired..only 100-200 may get this chance, not 100,000+

 

[AZJoe]

What people want to hear today IS NOT entirely different from what people liked way back then.

No, it is totally different. Those of us who have seen thousands of titles tested know that there really are, for any one format (Oldies or Classic Hits) around 400 to 600 real hits that nearly everyone likes and which will not drive off any segment of the audience.

Tastes can change, and songs that were "hip" back 40 years ago may not have aged as well as some others, but to say the vast majority of the thousands of charted hits over a 30 year period of oldies are no longer worth listening to or desirable is pure bunk.

The most any one station plays is about a 15 to 20 year spread. And, at most, there are around 600 songs that will not do significant damage if played.

If you fall for the consultant's claim that there are only 400 hits that people will listen to from the 50s, 60s and 70s- I have a bridge in New York to sell you....oh its the same one the consultants have been shoving down the geezers throats for the last 15 years or so!! People listen to oldies to "remember", recall and enjoy life thru their music, this will never change... only the people who try to spoon feed us it has.

You are so wrong about how the business works that just reading this last paragraph is embarassing. Consultants don't pick the music, listeners do.

People listen to oldies because they like the songs... and they are familiar, singable, fun, etc. And they will tell you which ones they still want to hear and which ones they do not want to hear again.

I know 3 consultants personally, and listeners DO NOT pick the music, its embarassing that you actually believe that!! Again, there are not just a few hundred songs that people enjoy and will listen to, people will and do want variety and avoid burnout that the same songs bring, peddle your gospel elsewhere, you are not the end all know it all, even tho in your mind you are.

 

[davideduardo]

People listen to oldies because they like the songs... and they are familiar, singable, fun, etc. And they will tell you which ones they still want to hear and which ones they do not want to hear again.

Are you so sure about this? Once again..you CANNOT speak the minds of the listeners, that virtually have no say in what songs get aired..only 100-200 may get this chance, not 100,000+

We, as an industry, can and do find out what listeners want and play it.

For your information, 100 properly selected users of a station will yield totally replicable results, meaning if we do another 100 and another and another and another, every set of 100 will yield the same results.

Since a music test costs $35 thousand and up for about 500 songs and around $50 thousand for 1200 to 1500, there is no way stations would test any more than the minimum reliable number of people.

To test 100,000 persons a couple of times a year would cost more than the all but maybe 3 stations in the US bill in a year...

 

[davideduardo]

I know 3 consultants personally,

I call your bet and raise you 10 more consultants. Name the three you know.

and listeners DO NOT pick the music, its embarassing that you actually believe that!!

Not only do I believe it, I do it. http://www.davidgleason.com/Radio Research.htm

Again, there are not just a few hundred songs that people enjoy and will listen to,

Bzzzt. Wrong. Thanks for playing.

For each format, there is a hot spot in the center of an acceptable range. Hip hop and CHurbans it's about 100 songs. In Country, 600 to 700. Oldies is 400 to 600, etc. Beyond that, ALL songs are going to drive some listeners away each time they are played. In the PPM world, this is not acceptable.

people will and do want variety

Variety is NOT adding more songs. Generally, the perception of variety increases as you reduce the library size.

and avoid burnout that the same songs bring,

Given that the PPM shows station weekly TSL around 3 to 3.5 hours, there is no way to burn out a well researched library.

peddle your gospel elsewhere, you are not the end all know it all, even tho in your mind you are.

As I have asked before, how many #1 stations have you owned, managed or programmed or been involved directly in the programming of. My record is very well known. Your turn.

 

[oldies76]

DavidEduardo For your information, 100 properly selected users of a station will yield totally replicable results, meaning if we do another 100 and another and another and another, every set of 100 will yield the same results.

To test 100,000 persons a couple of times a year would cost more than the all but maybe 3 stations in the US bill in a year...

How can the same 100 people, then another 100, and another..etc..yield the same results? The same songs? That's impossible. You make it sound like these 100 people have a limited number of songs to choose from (based on repeated rotations), so they are "forced" to pick these same songs over and over again. A very deceptive way of conducting music surveys.

Do you think all the hits (in their day) of 1965-1985 are presented to these evaluators, to choose from? Because, if they were..you'd get varied results and a larger rotation as a result.

These folks are choosing from a list of songs, that are already rotating, with maybe a few extras, right??

 

[davideduardo]

How can the same 100 people, then another 100, and another..etc..yield the same results? The same songs? That's impossible. You make it sound like these 100 people have a limited number of songs to choose from (based on repeated rotations), so they are "forced" to pick these same songs over and over again. A very deceptive way of conducting music surveys.

A music test does not have a single thing to do with "picking." In the best systems, an electronic dial is used, and participants are asked to score each song from 0 to 100 based on how much they would like to hear each one on the radio today. They hear "hooks" that are less than 10 seconds long of each song, one after another, and score each one.

Replication is a research technique to find out how small a sample has to be to be reliable. To replicate means to duplicate. So you test 100 people, and do the same test the same week with another 100 and still another. If all the tests yield statistically identical results for each song, then 100 is a usable test size, although even less than 100 might also be usable.

For that reason, replication is really a test of 300 persons or so, and we then use random interval or a random number generator to select sets of 100, then maybe of 80 or 70 and so on untill the results do not replicate. We have then found the ideal size for a music test.

Do you think all the hits (in their day) of 1965-1985 are presented to these evaluators, to choose from?

Over several tests, yes, all the viable songs are tested. Often big libraries are tested in two sessions for each respondant and they hear 600 songs the first night and 700 to 800 the second night. Each time songs are tested, the ones that failed miserably are not tested again, but marginal losers are and some additional songs are added.

Over a short period, several thousand songs are tested.

Because, if they were..you'd get varied results and a larger rotation as a result.

No, you would not get different results, and the optimum library size has been long ago determined by the listener.

These folks are choosing from a list of songs, that are already rotating, with maybe a few extras, right??

No, they are scoring, by listening to the hook (not choosing), of all the songs being played, rested, in fill and that might be playable and which have not been tested before or in a long time. Keep in mind that while such a station tests 35-54, for example, each year 5% of that demo are just entering it and another 5% are leaving,so there is audience turnover and that will change the scores, particularly at the old end and the young one... causing some newoer songs to score better and very old ones to drop.

 

[TheFonz]

Stop wasting time and energy arguing about terrestrial radio playlists. Satellite radio has it all!

For 55+, this is absolutely true. Radio can not and will not program specifically to geezers, so the option is satellite. Go for it.

And "geezers" are a HUGE segment of the population, to be sure. Add to them the teens and twentysomethings that have little interest in terrestrial radio, and there won't be much of an audience left. Three or four music stations per market should about cover it.

 

[davideduardo]

And "geezers" are a HUGE segment of the population, to be sure. Add to them the teens and twentysomethings that have little interest in terrestrial radio, and there won't be much of an audience left. Three or four music stations per market should about cover it.

Please do not be botherd by the facts, but 18-24 and 25-34 cume radio MORE than 55+ in the PPM markets.

The highest billing station in the country, KROQ in LA, is an 18-34 targeted FM. 18-34, not 35+, not 55+.

And the second highest biller in the US is KIIS in LA, which is a 12-34 station.

If teens and young adults are not using radio, how did this happen?

 

[davideduardo]

And "geezers" are a HUGE segment of the population, to be sure. Add to them the teens and twentysomethings that have little interest in terrestrial radio, and there won't be much of an audience left. Three or four music stations per market should about cover it.

Here you go... a part of the release by Paragon, a well established and professional research company.

Study: Radio TSL Up Among Hard-to-Reach 14-24 Demos

"A study released Tuesday by Paragon Media Strategies shows radio's time spent listening, or TSL, among the hard to reach 14-24 demo was up in 2008. The study, entitled "Youth Radio & New Media," also found a sharp rise in the percentage of those who say broadcast radio is their primary source. And that's not all, radio is dominating in-car music delivery, with a substantial lead over CDs and portable music players.

Music was also found to be radio's appeal for the younger 14-24 demo with "new music" and the "variety of music" offered as the primary reasons for listening. Additionally, broadcast radio is beginning to challenge the Internet as a primary source for new music.

"This year's results of this ongoing study can be considered great news for radio, which hasn't had a lot to celebrate lately with younger demos," said Paragon President/COO John Stevens. "14- to 24-year-old TSL to radio is up, and radio continues to dominate in-car music listening. More younger listeners say they are listening to radio 'more' than 'less,' and that is a significant change from a year ago."

 

[TheFonz]

And "geezers" are a HUGE segment of the population, to be sure. Add to them the teens and twentysomethings that have little interest in terrestrial radio, and there won't be much of an audience left. Three or four music stations per market should about cover it.

Here you go... a part of the release by Paragon, a well established and professional research company.

Study: Radio TSL Up Among Hard-to-Reach 14-24 Demos

"A study released Tuesday by Paragon Media Strategies shows radio's time spent listening, or TSL, among the hard to reach 14-24 demo was up in 2008. The study, entitled "Youth Radio & New Media," also found a sharp rise in the percentage of those who say broadcast radio is their primary source. And that's not all, radio is dominating in-car music delivery, with a substantial lead over CDs and portable music players.

Music was also found to be radio's appeal for the younger 14-24 demo with "new music" and the "variety of music" offered as the primary reasons for listening. Additionally, broadcast radio is beginning to challenge the Internet as a primary source for new music.

"This year's results of this ongoing study can be considered great news for radio, which hasn't had a lot to celebrate lately with younger demos," said Paragon President/COO John Stevens. "14- to 24-year-old TSL to radio is up, and radio continues to dominate in-car music listening. More younger listeners say they are listening to radio 'more' than 'less,' and that is a significant change from a year ago."

O.K. You win. It will take five music stations per market to cover the audience.

 

[TheFonz]

And "geezers" are a HUGE segment of the population, to be sure. Add to them the teens and twentysomethings that have little interest in terrestrial radio, and there won't be much of an audience left. Three or four music stations per market should about cover it.

Here you go... a part of the release by Paragon, a well established and professional research company.

Study: Radio TSL Up Among Hard-to-Reach 14-24 Demos

"A study released Tuesday by Paragon Media Strategies shows radio's time spent listening, or TSL, among the hard to reach 14-24 demo was up in 2008. The study, entitled "Youth Radio & New Media," also found a sharp rise in the percentage of those who say broadcast radio is their primary source. And that's not all, radio is dominating in-car music delivery, with a substantial lead over CDs and portable music players.

Music was also found to be radio's appeal for the younger 14-24 demo with "new music" and the "variety of music" offered as the primary reasons for listening. Additionally, broadcast radio is beginning to challenge the Internet as a primary source for new music.

"This year's results of this ongoing study can be considered great news for radio, which hasn't had a lot to celebrate lately with younger demos," said Paragon President/COO John Stevens. "14- to 24-year-old TSL to radio is up, and radio continues to dominate in-car music listening. More younger listeners say they are listening to radio 'more' than 'less,' and that is a significant change from a year ago."

I'm guessing that PMS (no pun intended) is supported by the media industry. Sounds like a case of "stroking" to me.

 

[Don62]

And "geezers" are a HUGE segment of the population, to be sure. Add to them the teens and twentysomethings that have little interest in terrestrial radio, and there won't be much of an audience left. Three or four music stations per market should about cover it.

Here you go... a part of the release by Paragon, a well established and professional research company.

Study: Radio TSL Up Among Hard-to-Reach 14-24 Demos

"A study released Tuesday by Paragon Media Strategies shows radio's time spent listening, or TSL, among the hard to reach 14-24 demo was up in 2008. The study, entitled "Youth Radio & New Media," also found a sharp rise in the percentage of those who say broadcast radio is their primary source. And that's not all, radio is dominating in-car music delivery, with a substantial lead over CDs and portable music players.

Music was also found to be radio's appeal for the younger 14-24 demo with "new music" and the "variety of music" offered as the primary reasons for listening. Additionally, broadcast radio is beginning to challenge the Internet as a primary source for new music.

"This year's results of this ongoing study can be considered great news for radio, which hasn't had a lot to celebrate lately with younger demos," said Paragon President/COO John Stevens. "14- to 24-year-old TSL to radio is up, and radio continues to dominate in-car music listening. More younger listeners say they are listening to radio 'more' than 'less,' and that is a significant change from a year ago."

I'm guessing that PMS (no pun intended) is supported by the media industry. Sounds like a case of "stroking" to me.

I also see zero hard numbers. Notice how vague that self-promotional "news release" is.

"Listening is up..." By how much? .00001 of a percent?

David, please provide some numbers.

 

[firepoint525]

The problem with these listener "tests" is that they are "rigged," whether the listener, or even the testers, realize it or not. The problem is that radio has been "dumbing down" its listeners for the better part of the past 50 years, so the results of these "tests" are little more than a foregone conclusion! : Radio has been playing the game of "lowered expectations" for many years, to the point that most listeners really don't expect to hear anything innovative, or new, on the radio. And that is now being reflected in the results of these "tests," with listeners, who have been spoon-fed for years, again whether they realize it or not, basically telling the programmers what they already wanted to hear. So I don't put much stock in the results of these so-called "tests." The listeners being "tested" are little more than guinea pigs. The chickens are coming home to roost.

For this problem to be solved, CHRs would need to immediately become more innovative in the way they program to 12-year-olds, then maybe in another generation or so, we would see more favorable results. But is already too late for our generation! We have now come to expect nothing from radio, and programmers deliver nothing for us! :

 

[The Beave]

The problem with these listener "tests" is that they are "rigged,"

The problem is that radio has been "dumbing down" its listeners for the better part of the past 50 years,

Radio has been playing the game of "lowered expectations" for many years, to the point that most listeners really don't expect to hear anything innovative, or new, on the radio.

So I don't put much stock in the results of these so-called "tests."

The chickens are coming home to roost.

But is already too late for our generation! We have now come to expect nothing from radio, and programmers deliver nothing for us! :

A M E N!!!

 

[davideduardo]

For this problem to be solved, CHRs would need to immediately become more innovative in the way they program to 12-year-olds, then maybe in another generation or so, we would see more favorable results. But is already too late for our generation! We have now come to expect nothing from radio, and programmers deliver nothing for us! :

No station researches or talks to or even wants 12 year olds. There is no way to survive as a station by appealing to that demo or anything in 12 to 17.

 

[oldies76]

Firepoint, Beave, you're on the ball!

After the first round of "tests" back when oldies & classic hits stations became, what they are, these songs were "initially" approved back in the day (mid 80's and 90's) by these people. Listeners supposedly like them then, then retested and scored the same ones, retested and scored the same ones, retested and scored, through 2008! Listeners have been "brainwashed" into thinking these are the hits of today, because they've been hearing the same darn thing (give or take a few songs) over and over since testing methods began on oldies and classic hits stations! Hence the tight playlists on most oldies stations since then!

Fortunately some stations are trying (for the sake of radio) to break this monotony, like the A to Z promo and WCBS's weekly rotations and others.