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Air America on WPTT

Re: I do remember that-

> Well, the other way didn't work- and considering their
> success elsewhere . . .
>
They dumped the sports format because 1250 was going all sports under ESPN's brand name (which carries some weight in sports circles) and because they wanted to pick up the displaced WTAE general talk shows. Saying "the other way didn't work" under those circumstances is ridiculous.

The thing that Renda does is find a niche and finds a way to fill it as efficiently as possible. WJAS has never been live and local after 7 p.m. It doesn't need to be. They make their money with a strong morning show and hosts who have history in the market. WPTT has been aimed at the small audience of talk listeners who liked WTAE's programming over KDKA's. He took a shot at all sports as long as there was an opening for it. Once 1250 jumped on it, with ESPN's branding and the frequency's heritage for sports with Cope and the Steelers, it made no sense to keep 1360 as a sports station. In fact, he didn't even bother to program a sports show as part of the 1360 lineup.

The signal issues are always going to limit what 1360 can do (as they always have).
 
Re: Uh, wait a minute-

> My God- you made points saying "Pittsburgh isn't a steel
> mill town anymore" and then heavily implied that because it
> was going high-tech it was an elevator music town.
>
> Or A/C as the case may be.
>
> Roy Orbison isn't rock?
>
> The Troggs aren't rock?
>
> Two of the greatest rock guitar riffs of all time are
> "Pretty Woman" and "Wild Thing."
>
> Slash has done covers of Wild Thing. David Lee Roth has done
> covers of Pretty Woman.
>
> That sounds pretty rock to me.

I agree with you that "Wild Thing" and "Oh Pretty Woman" are rock-ish, but radio programmers and listeners won't necessarily agree. There's a far cry of difference between Slash's version of Wild Thing and the Troggs; ditto for David Lee Roth.

The rock of 1964-65 and the rock of 1984-85 (e.g.) are so diametrically opposed that the difference is immediately discernable. You would no more find Pretty Woman by Orbison on DVE than you would find Roth's version on 3WS. However, Orbison's version would most assuredly fit on Wish, whereas almost NOTHING on Wish would fit on DVE.

Personally, I prefer a more rock approach to my oldies--especially as we reach now into the 70s catalogue, the likes of ELO, Lou Reed, etc. But oldies programmers have not agreed, and instead have gone towards a female-dominated AC-style oldies format. Thus, why 3WS has more in common with Wish than it does with sister DVE.

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

As for the Froggys, I used all four stations (the two simulcasts, noted as two separate entries in the Arb books) to calculate the figures. It's as close as we're going to get to similar market coverage to equate with Y108. So, no science is/was involved.
 
Re: I do remember that-

Actually, 1250 didn't jump on the ESPN banner right away, they went with the name Sportsradio 1250, carrying almost all Sportsfan programming, save for The Sportsbabe mid mornings and Jim Rome at noon, as well as doing local in the drive slots (I believe Pendola was doing afternoons and Hoerth was doing a 5 hr morning show then).

The ESPN radio moniker came into being when it was being bought by ABC and they were looking for outlets to clear all or most of the ESPN programming. I think the ESPN in Chicago may have come along a little sooner, but 1250 was one of the first stations to be titled ESPN Radio.


Now whether the sports talk worked at 1360 is another matter entirely. Obviously it didn't work for them, otherwise they would still be doing it. By the same token, Pittsburgh went from having 0 sports talk stations in the market before WPTT (though it was still technically WIXZ at the start of it's venture into sports talk) to the two it currently has today and being one of the first stations to get Madden on the air, even if it was in a pinch hitting role.

Lastly, given the way things have unfolded, could WPTT have survived as a sports talk station? I would argue probably not. 1250 had taken the one syndicated program from WPTT with a name, and had put Rome into the lineup at a time when he was probably the biggest name in sports talk. Add to that, while 1360 didn't have the Pitt rights, they did have the rights to Penn State, again until it to was taken by 1250. Sportsfan radio would end up declaring bankruptcy, which would have further weakened the 1360 product and sent them scurrying for a third sports talk network in under 5 years from which to get it's syndicated fare, as well as trying to find something that would have resembled local sports programming, probably falling back on the WVU package they had before getting Penn State in the first place. As for local hosts, WPTT has rarely been one to think outside the box, which is why you ended up with Keidan on regular shifts as opposed to Madden, a proven name as opposed to potential. (You'll note this happens on the other Renda properties as well, with Jack Bogut being on both WSHH and WJAS, as well as Cardille on WJAS, it is more about the safety of name recognition then about developing the next big name in local radio.)
 
Re: Uh, wait a minute-

> Roy Orbison isn't rock?
> The Troggs aren't rock?

They are rock with R&B influence - with the exception of Chicago, Springsteen & Joel, most classic rock is rock with no R&B. Keep in mind that both thoes songs are considered oldies (but Wild Think is also classic rock).


> Two of the greatest rock guitar riffs of all time are
> "Pretty Woman" and "Wild Thing."
>
> Slash has done covers of Wild Thing. David Lee Roth has done
> covers of Pretty Woman.

Covers dont mean that much - The Trammps did a cover of "Zing Went The Strings Of My Heart."

Three Dog Night did a cover of "Try A Little Tenderness," and I have a doo wop cover of Whole Lotta Love.

Remember - theres rock, then theres rock and roll.....<P ID="signature">______________

AOL IM: wnjoldies or jamminoldies105
CBS-FM lives at http://67.83.115.5:8010
Oldies Board co-moderator</P>
 
Consider the context

> Roy Orbison isn't rock?
>
> The Troggs aren't rock?
>
> Two of the greatest rock guitar riffs of all time are
> "Pretty Woman" and "Wild Thing."
>
> Slash has done covers of Wild Thing. David Lee Roth has done
> covers of Pretty Woman.
>
> That sounds pretty rock to me.

That sounds pretty rock to me, too. But then I'm a radio listener, a rock fan, and I've been an amateur rock musician for over 35 years! Hell, I was even a professional rock musician for a couple years in the early 70's, though with no fame and minimal financial success. Those of us who are music fans, or who actually know something about music other than how well it tests on hypothetical audiences have a whole different vocabulary for describing music that radio professionals.

To them, it's only "rock" if some suit at a major consulting company has pigeon holed it as "rock". Many of the people in radio programing "rock" wouldn't know a real rock and roll song if bit them on the rear end. They would, however, know how well a given song tests with a bunch of people with nothing better to do with their lives that push buttons in an auditorium.

Hell, I've heard people in radio who seem to think that every individual song written and performed by any artist is automatically the same genre of music, as if no artist could possibly release a country song one time, and then release a rock song another time. Anyone who thinks that if a song is recorded by, say, Billy Joel, then it's automatically categorized as the exact same kind of music as every other song he ever recorded clearly doesn't know crap about music.

And those few in radio who DO know and understand rock music have probably been replaced with voice-tracking or some other sort of automation, and are now working in some other aspect of the music industry.
 
Re: I do remember that-

> By the same token, Pittsburgh went
> from having 0 sports talk stations in the market before WPTT
> (though it was still technically WIXZ at the start of it's
> venture into sports talk) to the two it currently has today
> and being one of the first stations to get Madden on the
> air, even if it was in a pinch hitting role.

Madden had already done time regularly on WTAE and built something of a reputation with his pro rassling act. He quit when PD Bruce Gilbert wouldn't give him full-time status. He filled in on WIXZ a few times in the period before he went back to 1250 as a full-timer. One of the reasons Keidan was involved with Renda was he had sponsors of his own and brought guaranteed business to the station.


> As
> for local hosts, WPTT has rarely been one to think outside
> the box, which is why you ended up with Keidan on regular
> shifts as opposed to Madden, a proven name as opposed to
> potential. (You'll note this happens on the other Renda
> properties as well, with Jack Bogut being on both WSHH and
> WJAS, as well as Cardille on WJAS, it is more about the
> safety of name recognition then about developing the next
> big name in local radio.)

Keidan had been doing a 5 to 7 p.m. show on WJAS for several years. When WJAS hired Bogut (originally to do PM drive), they dumped the sports show (which really didn't fit the format) and sent Keidan to 1360. They sweetened things by letting him program the station.

Renda isn't looking to develop the next big name any more than 3WS is looking to break the next big hit. They want familiar names because that connects with their target audience. Again, people like Bogut and Cardille have sponsors who have followed them for years and they bring business to the station.
 
Re: Uh, wait a minute-

"Wild Thing" and "Pretty Woman" are the kinds of things that have been tamed through repetition. You hear them on the PA system at Giant Eagle.
 
Re: Uh, wait a minute-

> The rock of 1964-65 and the rock of 1984-85 (e.g.) are so
> diametrically opposed that the difference is immediately
> discernable. You would no more find Pretty Woman by Orbison
> on DVE than you would find Roth's version on 3WS. However,
> Orbison's version would most assuredly fit on Wish, whereas
> almost NOTHING on Wish would fit on DVE.

Actually, those songs WOULD fit together, except for the fact that there isn't anyone still working in radio anymore who has any input into actually deciding what music gets played who actually LISTENS to the music. It's all done by the numbers, by testing, and arbitrary cut-off dates for when given format eras begin and end.

'DVE would play songs written and recorded by Roy Orbison when he was part of the Traveling Wilburys, because they were within some arbitrary dates some suit or bean counter determined through pseudo-scientific testing -- probably using the entrails of a chicken.

If there was even one program director in this town who actually LISTENED to the music, and who had a modicum of good taste and an inkling of what his target audience actually liked, he could program a station that would blast all the other stations out of the water. But there isn't, so that ain't gonna happen.
 
Re: I do remember that-

I would agree on all accounts, though Keidan's title as PD and actually being allowed to program the station were two different things entirely, which is why when WPTT went all talk and away from sports, Keidan was kept on, but doing a general talk show as opposed to sports talk. I believe the words of the station manager at the time were somewhere along the line of making Keidan "a Pittsburgh version of Mitch Albom". Nor do I think that Bruce had a lot of say in the way the station was switched to talk, with what seemed like just days of non stop Dr Laura as the gimmick to push the switch, but I could be mistaken on his influence there, just strikes me as having come from higher up the food chain.
 
Re: I do remember that-

> Actually, 1250 didn't jump on the ESPN banner right away,
> they went with the name Sportsradio 1250, carrying almost
> all Sportsfan programming, save for The Sportsbabe mid
> mornings and Jim Rome at noon, as well as doing local in the
> drive slots (I believe Pendola was doing afternoons and
> Hoerth was doing a 5 hr morning show then).
>
> The ESPN radio moniker came into being when it was being
> bought by ABC and they were looking for outlets to clear all
> or most of the ESPN programming. I think the ESPN in
> Chicago may have come along a little sooner, but 1250 was
> one of the first stations to be titled ESPN Radio.
>

I was under the impression that ABC bought 1250 to put Radio Disney on it, but changed in mid-stream to sports when they figured out it would make money, and cut a deal with Birach to put Disney on 540. 540 operates from 1250's facility as far as I know, and there's a long-term deal in place for ABC to buy it after some changes go through relative to a station in the DC market (I think they're going to turn 540's power down). they occasionally bump ESPN play-by-play of things like daytime playoff baseball to 540, which is an incredible waste of a really tremendous daytime signal runinng Radio Mickey.

That also assumes that Disney stays in the business of owning radio stations, which is not guaranteed.

<P ID="signature">______________
"With God as my witness, I could have sworn turkeys could fly."</P>
 
Re: I do remember that-

That may very well have been the original intent, and as far as I know you are correct about both stations running out of the same facilities, I know people that have had the honor of interning for 1250 and were also doing work for the Radio Disney end of things (what I don't know, I have seen almost no promotion of them since they originally started here).

ABC may have looked at the fact that 1250 was doing okay with sports programming and already had the Steelers and Penn State contracts and just decided to use their ESPN property instead, because when they first started as ESPN Radio, they were almost exclusively syndication, doing only evening drive as local. Or something else may have played into that decision, to that I would be venturting a guess. Perhaps someone on the inside of that end of things could enlighten us.
 
Want to say sorry to Johnny

I'll buy that- but I strongly believe that Pittsburgh IS a rock town.

By the way, I was a little too harsh and unfriendly to you. That wasn't right.

You like A/C, I like rock- and in the end it's all good!
 
Baseball on 540- Heidi Revisited

Well, see, I don't think it was a waste to put Baseball playoffs on 540.

Let me give you an example. I was at the Steelers game when the Braves-Astros game was on- broadcast opposite the Steelers game on 1250. I was very interested in that game since I'm a Phil Garner fan- the series could be clinched that day- and so I had it on my walkman at the game.

Unfortunately, it was decided in the final innings. But as soon as the Steelers game ended ESPN Radio 1250 went to their Steelers post-game coverage.

Which I don't blame them for, after all, they have it sold and would make much more money off of it.

However, wouldn't it have been wise for them to move the Astros-Braves to 540 so if I was listening to it, I could continue to follow it? As it was, I missed the ending- which was very dramatic.
 
Actually-

When WTAE went all-sports, they had a lot of local programming. Hoerth was there for awhile doing mornings- they also had Jim Penna, John Phillips, and Ray Walker.

Walker's show was a disaster. I remember the day before the Steelers played the Broncos all he could talk about was "You know- 20 years from now I don't think the Steelers will be here."

Penna wasn't a whole lot better. Penna used to do this thing where he would play games for the ENTIRE show- like the Trivia Train and the Name Game. Twice a week. Wasn't exactly cutting edge commentary.

I liked Phillips, but he gave way to Madden. I would have liked to have seen Phillips stay on- it would have been a nice good-guy/bad-guy mix if they both could have had their own shows- but, alas, it was not to be.
 
Re: Want to say sorry to Johnny

> I'll buy that- but I strongly believe that Pittsburgh IS a
> rock town.
>
> By the way, I was a little too harsh and unfriendly to you.
> That wasn't right.
>
> You like A/C, I like rock- and in the end it's all good!
>

No need to apologize...we both are firm in our arguments, and argued them passionately. I was as off the level as you, and I apologize for that too.

Truth be told, I'm not an AC guy--I like rock. I was arguing from the current radio programmer/consultants perspective--they delineate strictly between roick and not rock, to the exclusion, many times of common sense.

There's no doubt that Pittsburgh has a rock flare--and won in the Winter books. But radio nowadays is selling to the females, so the AC stations win. Is it wrong? You bet.

There's a lack of creativity in radio, and in Pittsburgh's big corporate radio. Instead of making a great 3WS with all forms of oldies, it's an AC gold station, staying relatively safe. Same for DVE--though a bit more adventurous than their sister, they largely ignore some older rock hits that would fit.

I am a rock fan (actually, to be honest I'm a 60s soul and R&B fan--so really Sunday nights are the only times I turn on the radio!). Most AC drives me crazy, really sappy, and overplayed (like Hootie & the Blowfish, arrrrrggghhhhh). But, as we've found out all too well--what we, Mr. Joe Radio Listener personally likes matters little because I get neither an Arb diary, nor get picked for research listener audiences.

But, in the end you're right--it's all good!
 
Re: Baseball on 540- Heidi Revisited

> Well, see, I don't think it was a waste to put Baseball
> playoffs on 540.
>
Not what I meant.

Radio Disney is a waste of electricity, especially when it's on the best daytime AM signal in the market.

I LIKE it when they use it for something like baseball.<P ID="signature">______________
"With God as my witness, I could have sworn turkeys could fly."</P>
 
Just one thought, re NASCAR

> If Pitt was willing to leave WTAE to go to KQV in '98, which
> has no better signal than WPTT, then I'm positive they would
> have considered a move to an all-sports WIXZ, especially if
> they were what the station was built around.
>
> Renda just doesn't get sports. Had he put any money, any
> money whatsoever, into finding suitable talent for a
> drive-time talk show, I'm convinced it would have worked. I
> mean come on- the "talent" locally around that time was John
> Corby and Tom McMillan and Keidan. You're telling me that
> you couldn't find a host to go up against that?
>
> No, they wouldn't have stolen the Pirates away from KDKA,
> but as I said, Pitt and NASCAR would get more of an audience
> than you'd ever imagine.

WPTT did carry NASCAR every Sunday. However, the station dropped it because radio ratings for car races were being hurt by the expanded TV coverage on such outlets as Fox.


>
> Furthermore, when WTAE went all sports- originally their
> programming didn't carry much ESPN. They had 'em on the
> weekend (I'm trying to remember- was ESPN even 24/7 back in
> those days?) but the syndicated part was filled with shows
> like "Ferrall on the Bench" and Sportsfan.
>
> I don't see why ESPN Radio is such a great giant to slay. Of
> the three major syndicated networks I think Sporting News
> probably has the best talent, and FOX has the two most
> nationally-known shows in Jim Rome (technically Premier) and
> JT the Brick.
>
> But the final point is just that "Prime Sports 1360" proves
> that Renda is willing to go to an all-syndicated format.
>
> Does that mean they are going Air America? Who knows? It
> could very well mean WPTT is going to play songs like "The
> Star Spangled Banner" and "The Battle Hymn of the Republic"
> all day long.
>
 
Re: AM 540

> > Well, see, I don't think it was a waste to put Baseball
> > playoffs on 540.
> >
> Not what I meant.
>
> Radio Disney is a waste of electricity, especially when it's
> on the best daytime AM signal in the market.
>
> I LIKE it when they use it for something like baseball.
>

Perhaps it's the problem of a shrinking market, perhaps it's a lack of imagination by station owners (also a shrinking number), but occasionally you will get a waste of electricity ... and of a license, for that matter ... of an AM 540 (or quite a few other stations, but I digress) ...

WWCS is not only the best daytime signal, it's a heckuva nighttime signal in some areas.
However, AM 540's saga echoes the best you can find about radio in Pittsburgh.
This station has tried ... and failed ... at contemporary Christian music (on the now-defunct CBN Radio Network, among other services) ... commercial classical music (even in AM stereo) ... ethnic programs from around the world ... BBC World Service ... moldy oldies ... and even the brief return of Jack Wheeler (who may have been looking to buy WWCS, some rumors say) ...

ABC owns WEAE, leases WWCS, believes sports are kid-friendly, so dumps excess ESPN game product on AM 540 (and had a deal to carry MSA Sports Network games, in the only city in America where one might find high school football on six AM stations on a typical Friday night).

And while Radio Disney is little more than a 24-hour infomercial for Mickey and his pals, it does sell ad time, it sounds a lot like a sanitized B94 (albeit with a few sounds one would never hear pre- or post-Stern on the Infinity-run FM 93.7), and as long as Disney runs ABC Radio I suspect it will be serious about putting Radio Disney and ESPN out on two pretty good signals.

By the way, one last thought ... WWCS' old site just outside Southpointe could have been the one Wolfman Jack was in for his bit part in "American Graffiti," that George Lucas film done after "Happy Days" came out and before he hit paydirt with "Star Wars." (It wasn't, but it sure could have doubled for it.)
 
Re: AM 540

> This station has tried ... and failed ... at contemporary
> Christian music (on the now-defunct CBN Radio Network, among
> other services) ... commercial classical music (even in AM
> stereo) ... ethnic programs from around the world ... BBC
> World Service ... moldy oldies ... and even the brief return
> of Jack Wheeler (who may have been looking to buy WWCS, some
> rumors say) ...
>

But if someone had beaten WPGB to the punch with Boortz, Hannity and Savage, for instance it might have been another story. The common thread of everything they tried was that it was all on minor-league budgets....<P ID="signature">______________
"With God as my witness, I could have sworn turkeys could fly."</P>
 
Re: AM 540; but I also digress ...

> > This station has tried ... and failed ... at contemporary
> > Christian music (on the now-defunct CBN Radio Network,
> among
> > other services) ... commercial classical music (even in AM
>
> > stereo) ... ethnic programs from around the world ... BBC
> > World Service ... moldy oldies ... and even the brief
> return
> > of Jack Wheeler (who may have been looking to buy WWCS,
> some
> > rumors say) ...
> >
>
> But if someone had beaten WPGB to the punch with Boortz,
> Hannity and Savage, for instance it might have been another
> story. The common thread of everything they tried was that
> it was all on minor-league budgets....
>
Amen.

Let's start another round of commentary ... This is from Radio Ink:

Merrill Lynch: Disney Radio Sale Likely

As reported by CBS MarketWatch, Merrill Lynch "believes that Disney continues to explore its options with regard to its radio division and that some type of transaction remains likely."

A sale of its ABC Radio assets is viewed as a distinct possibility now that Disney CEO-elect Robert Iger is taking the reins this fall. Merrill Lynch says that Disney has reportedly hired an investment bank to run the process. Sources say Disney is working with Goldman Sachs and Bear Stearns.

The company's 71 stations are valued at between $2.6 billion and $3.6 billion, according to the Merrill report, which also cited the attractiveness to suitors based on its prime key markets. "The station group should be relatively attractive to bidders due to its strong position in key markets such as New York (three stations), Los Angeles (four stations) and Washington, D.C. (three stations)," the firm wrote.

Likely bidders for Disney's radio assets include a host of midsized radio station groups including Emmis, Citadel, Cox and Entercom.

> Three quick thoughts: Cox owns Channel 11, Citadel and Entercom both have Pennsylvania stations, and, of course, Disney/ABC owns WEAE-AM 1250 and leases AM 540.
 
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