Correction: YOU'RE still talking about it.
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Alt Buffalo Flips To Country 107.7/104.7 The Wolf
- Thread starter bobgoodbob
- Start date
Correction: YOU'RE still talking about it.
Correction: LCR and tbolt talk about it.
WBEN was (and remains for whatever reason) a successful stand-alone. 107.7 as Alt had a nice debut, generated some NTR, but eventually ran out of steam.
The community of posters here isn't talking about the Lake as much as we're responding in writing to a few posters who treat the Lake format as if it were the Second Coming. It wasn't. It had a good run. But it's time was running out. Could it have endured? Toward the end, it was being run on life support. IIRC, it had two live jocks. It was turning into the 'WNIA of the FM band,' albeit with better bathrooms and equipment.
The Lake garnered respectable shares, but it was waning when Entercom made the (ill-conceived and ill-fated) switch to simulcast WBEN. The Lake format, which BTW was not AAA, it was steeped in Classic Rock, had a limited shelf life competing with 97 Rock and the Edge. Alternative at the time appeared to have a greater upside. Personally, I preferred the Lake to Alt, but the demise of the Lake didn't rock my world, any more than 97 Rock blowing out the morning show and PD did. Sh*t happens. You and I don't get a vote in the decision-making. We get to play keyboard critic, whine and opine, and waste time posting on a message board that's read by 37 radio dorks like us.
Time and timing dictate corporate choices in many facets of business. Country is simply the next landing point on Audacy's "Wheel. Of. Formattts." There will come a time when Country's shelf life expires and Audacy will once again spin the Wheel.
The mellow classic rock format was indeed a respectable performer in the 6+ (or 12+, if we're talking pre-PPM era) bucket for *that* signal. I have no idea how it performed in-demo, though.
The Lake was clearly patterned after the original sound of 97.1 The Drive in Chicago. It was one of several instances where WDRV inspired highly similar sounding stations.
The Boston example is an interesting comparison, but I (or anyone) can also point to the myriad lackluster ratings performances of Cumulus' former "Nash" stations. I will also note WBWL these days delivers a rock solid signal to most of Greater Boston, whereas 107.7/104.7 lack that type of broad penetration from a single transmitter.
At the end of the day, I suspect The Wolf will probably hover somewhere between a 1.5 and 2 share, which is a definite improvement from Alt, and perhaps will shave a point away from WYRK.
The Lake was clearly patterned after the original sound of 97.1 The Drive in Chicago. It was one of several instances where WDRV inspired highly similar sounding stations.
The Boston example is an interesting comparison, but I (or anyone) can also point to the myriad lackluster ratings performances of Cumulus' former "Nash" stations. I will also note WBWL these days delivers a rock solid signal to most of Greater Boston, whereas 107.7/104.7 lack that type of broad penetration from a single transmitter.
At the end of the day, I suspect The Wolf will probably hover somewhere between a 1.5 and 2 share, which is a definite improvement from Alt, and perhaps will shave a point away from WYRK.
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Good post ↑ MarkW. To the Lake's influence; IIRC, the format was influenced by a number of "neo-rock" (the moniker hung on it by the trades and a few consultants who also consulted the format) stations in Denver, San Francisco and Seattle. To the Wolf and WYRK; if the Wolf scores a 2.5 share, it's certainly an improvement and could qualify as a success. A 2.5 Persons 12+ may re-arrange the advertising strategy of some clients, advertisers and agencies. That noted, WYRK will always own the Country brand in this market, which Nielsen continues measure listening by diary methodology.
Not sure what that has to do with Boston. You also can't generalize on the ratings performances of the Cumulus country stations. Some of them were very successful. The Nash brand was not. Their national morning show was terrible. WYRK is technically a "taste of country" station, in that its website and evening show are built on that brand. It hasn't hurt the ratings.
My point of the Boston comparison is that even though WBWL has a weaker signal than WKLB and is almost completely syndicated, it gets better ratings than WLKK gets now.
That's not what the people on the Boston board say. The station was not a strong performer when it was a rock station, and it's about the same for country. In any case, the real audience for the country format isn't downtown Boston, but the suburbs and rural areas around the city. Same (by the way) with Detroit.
It depends. The format shifted from time to time. The AAA description related to the album cuts or "deep tracks" the station played, which classic rock stations don't do.
Those who miss The Lake have had it available to them for years on HD-2. It's not like it doesn't exist.
It was dropped sometime shortly after the rebrand to Alt and replaced with New Arrivals Radio (nationalized version of WNYL-HD2).
The playlist included Dave Matthews Band, Grateful Dead, R.E.M., Coldplay, The Who, and many others. It deviated from the typical Classic Rock formula. It was a variation of AAA or Album Rock. The description is not that important. The fact that it delivered results with a college educated professional listener base is. Some say this type of format is better suited for non commercial Radio. Perhaps, but look at the results for 107.7 since it was flipped.
People post here saying Radio formats are a business and not for personal tastes. That's fine, but look at the results. Alternative never came close to The Lake ratings. The Wolf won't either. It will languish and then fade. A Radio station is in business to find an audience and advertisers. 107.7 has had neither since The Lake...
Ratings are not the result. Radio is not about getting ratings, but making money.
WBWL puts a 65 dbu over only 50% of the market population, and a 60 dbu over just two-thirds of the population. It does not have a "rock solid" signal over "most" of the market.
How many ad buys are based on education or profession?
As mentioned by BigA and others, The Lake reached end of life. It was flying on fumes in its final period, both in audience and revenue.
And yet people who know the market say otherwise. Everything that has followed it made things worse. You and Big A have great advice on "making money" with no ratings.
To your first point, ever heard of Highest Qualitative Audience? The station reached End Of Life because Entercom gave up on the idea nationwide. In this case, the Buffalo cluster declined...
Cluster operation has different strategies than a stand-alone station. I worked in my first 5-station in a single market cluster in 1963, and built my own starting in 1964, ending up with 9 station in one of my markets, so I have a 30-year advantage over most US broadcasters in understanding how to make multiple stations in a market "synchronize".
In this case, we have a limited signal. It can be best used to fragment a leading station from another cluster so that "our" cluster looks better when ratings (not shares) are examined. Not every station has to be in the very top tier as we sell pairs of stations, trios of stations and even more to reach an advertiser's targets.
Nobody paid attention to HQL in radio as buyers are not particularly motivated by this.
My best example is a Lexus dealer in LA that had never advertised on Spanish language stations but a new ad manager gave it a try and found that sales increased over 30%, requiring expansion of the service and used car departments. Viewing "Hispanics" based on HQL, it would seem to present a no-win situation. But reality proved the statistics wrong, as the higher income Hispanics liked that they were being "invited" in their own language to patronize a brand they liked and could afford.
Out of curiosity I listened to a few minutes. Most of it doesn't sound like Country to me. More Rock than anything. They've tried this before and weren't happy with the results. Whatever happened to finding a format hole and running with it?
Maybe, but it's getting great ratings at WYRK.
What would you suggest?
Many of these formats are blurred. Current Alternative is more Pop/AC sounding rather than Rock oriented. I don't like Country, but other people have said it's also Pop leaning these days. Much of the current music is bland and lifeless.
Any niche format (like AAA) requires effort and expertise. An independent ownership can deliver that. The Corporate groups use Cookie Cutter formula. Just look at the websites of their stations. They are sterile and indistinguishable...
That's the point. The Lake had the highest qualitative audience. If the sales department couldn't take advantage of that, programming wasn't the problem. AAA formats should be a good fit for Audi, BMW, Wine Events, etc...
Your example shows that "one size does not fit all" in sales & programming. Yet, that's the strategy that Entercom/Audacy has been using with disastrous results...
Really? Post some specifics. I'd like to see that data. What percentage of Buffalo population drive luxury cars given the weather?
If the audience is such high quality, why doesn't WNYPB replace classical on WNED with a AAA format?
Like who?
One important fact is that high end cars and a (very) occasional wine tasting can't sustain a station.
But, mostly, very few ad campaigns using radio use income levels as a criteria. Radio is a mass medium, and advertisers see it as throwing out a net.
AAA is now a mostly 55 and over format, and is shrinking. The few remaining successful commercial ones are in markets like Portland and Denver. I don't think I need to explain that those two markets are not at all like Buffalo or Cleveland or Youngstown or Altoona and there is evidence showing how AAA either never worked or faded out in that kind of market.
Oh, and I'm in one of the oldest median age markets in the US and the Audi and BMW and Land Rover dealers don't go after Boomers... they go for folks in their 40's who have reached the ability to buy a high-end vehicle which may become their preference after that. The retirees here arrived with their brand preferences and usually stick with them; I've talked with BMW, Mercedes and several other brand franchise managers socially and they look for the "first time luxury buyers" and don't try to get a Porsche buyer to purchase a Jag.
But commercial radio must deliver a product, called "the audience", which fits enough advertiser's needs, to be commercially successful. You are suggesting products that don't meet sufficient needs to be successful.
One of the biggest failures I tried to prevent and then had to try to remedy was programming a Spanish language station in NYC to teens and 18-24 with a secondary of 18-34. It got that very young audience, but no advertiser at the time in that market bought Spanish Dominants in those age ranges. They wanted 18-49, and a station stronger 18-24 could just not carry the whole 18-49 demo, and after several expensive and wasted years of trying, the format was changed.
You can not sell something advertisers do not want. Or need.
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