Am I correct?

[Savage]

All absolutely true, BRNout. And I'll add: a serious problem for HD Radio which hasn't gotten its due in the endless debates is, bluntly, all the outrageously dishonest marketing claims for the system. Even if they could fix this thing, which they can't, nobody will ever believe them.

I suppose that in a sense, all the lying about HD from its proponents from iBiquity to the HD Alliance to various broadcasters was unavoidable. If the truth were spoken from the git-go, HD Radio would have been dead in the delivery room. The system was simply not ready for prime time, and never will be. As you said, it would have been obsolete on launch, even if it worked well, which it never has.

But the few early-adopters who could have helped noodle HD Radio along to the mainstream were immediately put off by the ridiculous performance claims - the laughers which have been quoted here endlessly like "CD quality for FM, FM quality on AM, and freedom from noise, dropouts and fading." It's why people who plunked down north of $100 to $200 for Receptors and Accurians couldn't get them back to the Return Desk fast enough.

"The fastest way to kill a bad product is to advertise it heavily." A 50-year old marketing truism, confirmed by the HD Radio debacle.

 

[SirRoxalot]

Wi-Fi and/or cellular have one feature that HD radio simply can't match - two way communication. This give the streamers the ability to dump a song, and move on to the next selection. HD may be able to buffer and timeshift a little - like putting a radio station on "pause", but there are significant limitations.

The advantage to one-way communication is that you can have a much bigger transmitter putting out a much better signal over a larger area, but today's consumers are demanding nearly seamless cell coverage where they spend most of their time. One other advantage that HD may have is in ease of use. It's pretty hard to hit "scan" on the Internet when there are literally millions of options.

 

[RadeoEngineer]

Savage when this issue came up where I worked for 20 years (FM's only) I went to the highest corporate levels begging them not to throw money at this dog. I told them how much it would cost, and in my best layman terms why it wouldn't work. I left that gig the year I was ordered to pick one of the FM's and do an HD install. That's not why I left, but it was good timing. They now have it running on four FM's (one a Class A putting out 5.8 digital watts) and have nothing to show for it other than the hassles of keeping it on the air for no one to listen to. Consequently, I have never had to install one of the Rube Goldberg devices.

Retirement is good.

 

[iyiyi]

I believe everyone will agree that the vast majority of HD listening takes place through earbuds on Insignia 01s and 02s (or similar devices). A distant second is the autos with HD radios. Yeah, there are other radio scenarios, but the lion's share of HD audience hears it basically via the two modes described above. Headphones or car radios.

So let me throw this out there for your consideration then...

Best of my knowledge, PPM devices don't register headphone listening. PPM devices register autos ONLY if a PPM device wearer is actually inside the vehicle. Having said that...

Do you believe there might be even the slightest chance that IBOC is being boned because Arbitron doesn't have equipment capable of registering virtually any HD listening at all? HDs will probably never show good numbers as long as there is such discrimination in audience metering abilities. Possibility that maybe just a teensie weensie little bit of due credit ain't being given to HD, considering this potential discrepancy? Maybe IBOC is wrong because they went on ahead and developed a newfangled gadget before checking with the PPM people first!


-

 

[Savage]

"Teensie weensie?" iyiyi, my friend, you have the finest instinct for understatement I have ever witnessed. My hat is off to you.

I think suggesting that IBOC's myriad problems could be even infintessimally caused by Arbitron data input protocols, is like arguing that the 17% effective national unemployment rate is the fault of loud chirping by canaries and parakeets in old-style G.C. Murphy five-and-dime stores, which in turn drowns out good news about massive new-job creation across this great land.

 

[muiscmike]

When I first discovered HD radio I was excites about it. Here in the Ft. Myers area we had a few HD stations with some interesting HD-2 stations. 96 K-Rock had Haney's Big House on HD-2, while Z100 Had Cool Jazz on 100.1. Z100 is now Y100 with no HD. Ha eye's Big House is no more and, instead, we have a simulcast of 770 WWCN the Espn station on 96.1's HD-2.

However, I have discovered on my Tune In App on my iPad that I can listen to WSM a d hear classic country, listen to the New Orleans Saints on WWL, listen to stations local news and music from my home town in Alabama. I rarely listen to my Insignia HD radio anymore. The only reason I use my HD Accurian is to play my mp3player or portable CD player through it. It has never done well at receiving radio stations.

 

[jhardis]

But HOA's prohibit outdoor antennas in subdivisions, and aggressively fight.

Federal statute overrules all HOA rulings on dishes and antennas, regardless of their use.

I may be wrong on this but I believe that statute only applies to satellite and over the air TV. I know hams routinely have to fight HOA's.

Please see http://www.fcc.gov/guides/over-air-reception-devices-rule

It applies to more than television, but not to ham radio, broadcast radio, or satellite radio.

- Jonathan

 

[muiscmike]

I inteded to type Haney's Big House in my previous post. My iPad keyboard can be somewhat difficult at times.

 

[BRNout]

I believe everyone will agree that the vast majority of HD listening takes place through earbuds on Insignia 01s and 02s (or similar devices). A distant second is the autos with HD radios.

You know what? I actually do agree with you on this point - wholeheartedly. As much of a radio geek as I am, my fleet of Insignia NS HD001's are the only place where I ever hear HD Radio. So far, I've been in one vehicle that had an HD Radio and it's owner had no idea what it was. He was annoyed, though, about how WBBM would cut in and out of stereo. Not impressed.

Aside from my Insignia portable, you're right, it is as if it doesn't exist. It's cool to show it off to friends, by the way. They have no idea what it is, it sounds kinda cool and they are ultimately not interested.

Best of my knowledge, PPM devices don't register headphone listening. PPM devices register autos ONLY if a PPM device wearer is actually inside the vehicle. Having said that...

Do you believe there might be even the slightest chance that IBOC is being boned because Arbitron doesn't have equipment capable of registering virtually any HD listening at all? HDs will probably never show good numbers as long as there is such discrimination in audience metering abilities. Possibility that maybe just a teensie weensie little bit of due credit ain't being given to HD, considering this potential discrepancy? Maybe IBOC is wrong because they went on ahead and developed a newfangled gadget before checking with the PPM people first!

Actually, there is an adapter that is supposed to be used by PPM wearers when they are listening through headphones. Because for every minute lost that a PPM wearer is listening to HD2's, there are about 60,000 minutes of analog radio listening through headphones would not be accounted for. That's a conservative guess of the ratio - based on ratings. It could be even uglier. Anyhow, our friends at Arbitron can't allow that to happen. They thought of that.

So, sorry but no.

 

[iyiyi]

I believe everyone will agree that the vast majority of HD listening takes place through earbuds on Insignia 01s and 02s (or similar devices). A distant second is the autos with HD radios.

You know what? I actually do agree with you on this point - wholeheartedly. As much of a radio geek as I am, my fleet of Insignia NS HD001's are the only place where I ever hear HD Radio. So far, I've been in one vehicle that had an HD Radio and it's owner had no idea what it was. He was annoyed, though, about how WBBM would cut in and out of stereo. Not impressed.

Aside from my Insignia portable, you're right, it is as if it doesn't exist. It's cool to show it off to friends, by the way. They have no idea what it is, it sounds kinda cool and they are ultimately not interested.

Best of my knowledge, PPM devices don't register headphone listening. PPM devices register autos ONLY if a PPM device wearer is actually inside the vehicle. Having said that...

Do you believe there might be even the slightest chance that IBOC is being boned because Arbitron doesn't have equipment capable of registering virtually any HD listening at all? HDs will probably never show good numbers as long as there is such discrimination in audience metering abilities. Possibility that maybe just a teensie weensie little bit of due credit ain't being given to HD, considering this potential discrepancy? Maybe IBOC is wrong because they went on ahead and developed a newfangled gadget before checking with the PPM people first!

Actually, there is an adapter that is supposed to be used by PPM wearers when they are listening through headphones. Because for every minute lost that a PPM wearer is listening to HD2's, there are about 60,000 minutes of analog radio listening through headphones would not be accounted for. That's a conservative guess of the ratio - based on ratings. It could be even uglier. Anyhow, our friends at Arbitron can't allow that to happen. They thought of that.

So, sorry but no.

O.K. So if possibly most HD listening is through headphones, I propose that the vast majority of non-HD programming heard over headphones is either Ipod, MP3s or CDs. FM tuners in those devices are rarely included because people buy them to listen to their own private music selections. I doubt that there are many stand-alone FM or AM/FM personal radios out there for purchase and even Sony quit making Walkmans some time ago.

Therefore, I believe that the vast majority of analog AM or FM listening is done WITHOUT headphones. Just the opposite of HD listening. Hopefully, you'll agree that for an active person, headphone wearing is a giant PITA. The damn wires are constantly getting hung up on something or other; ripping the headphones off your head, knocking the radio on the floor, sweeping various objects off the desk or table...

It may be a plausible statement to conclude that a critical audience of HD is connected via headphone. Conversely, to state that the vast majority of the non-HD headphone listening is done from sources other than analog AM or FM, may also be equally true.

I'm so happy that you have your 60,000:1 analog/HD figures, knowledge of PPM methodology and -- most importantly -- friends at Arbitron!

Please have your Arbitron buddies come on here and explain how they came up that "conservative" 60,000:! analog/HD headphone ratio (I'd like to see the documentation). How they "thought" about potential measuring discrepancies between analog and HD, algorithms and premises used to calculate this data stated in a general manner (I don't want to hear any "proprietary" B.S. excuses) and exactly how and why "they can't allow that to happen". Remember, I have absolutely no proof whatsoever that there is, or has been any error in Arbitron's conclusions regarding ratings measurements. I state this strictly as a potential glitch that might possibly affect HD's proper representation in ratings.

The only "ugly" thing is: HD might inadvertently be getting porked here.


-

 

[Savage]

With all due respect: HD Radio is self-porking. It doesn't need help from Arbitron.

I'm not a guy who spends his days in studios staring at an Adobe Audition screen or standing out at muddy transmitter sites (with absolutely no disrespect intended to the folks who do either, day in and day out.) I own and operate my stations, am out in the community, selling advertising, speaking to civic groups, working with community leaders and socializing with the media people - agencies, politicians, radio and TV people. The point is, I get out and talk to civilians as well as broadcasters.

The number of people I've encountered in TEN years outside of the radio industry who were aware of HD Radio: precisely one. He was a guy I struck up a conversation with in a bar while I was waiting to meet by GF three years ago. He was aware of HD, listening to a comedy channel on a local HD-2, and he was underwhelmed both by the programming and the coverage.

So big Nasty Mean Arbitron is the latest cause for HD's long-predicted and inevitable marketplace failure? What's next, "bad clams?" "I lost it in the lights?" "Corporate greed?"

How about: bad engineering?? Let's give this a rest, already. It didn't work. Let's move on.

 

[iyiyi]

With all due respect: HD Radio is self-porking. It doesn't need help from Arbitron.

I'm not a guy who spends his days in studios staring at an Adobe Audition screen or standing out at muddy transmitter sites (with absolutely no disrespect intended to the folks who do either, day in and day out.) I own and operate my stations, am out in the community, selling advertising, speaking to civic groups, working with community leaders and socializing with the media people - agencies, politicians, radio and TV people. The point is, I get out and talk to civilians as well as broadcasters.

The number of people I've encountered in TEN years outside of the radio industry who were aware of HD Radio: precisely one. He was a guy I struck up a conversation with in a bar while I was waiting to meet by GF three years ago. He was aware of HD, listening to a comedy channel on a local HD-2, and he was underwhelmed both by the programming and the coverage.

So big Nasty Mean Arbitron is the latest cause for HD's long-predicted and inevitable marketplace failure? What's next, "bad clams?" "I lost it in the lights?" "Corporate greed?"

How about: bad engineering?? Let's give this a rest, already. It didn't work. Let's move on.

Let me try a different tack.

IBOC, like any new technology, has it's fair share of kinks that need to be ironed out. My main reservation to IBOC was the method of modulation used to generate the signal. Of the 5 original analog AM stereo schemes, 4 were analog QAM and one was independent sideband. All systems sounded good in optimal conditions. All systems had to predistort their audio to make their signals compatible with the envelope detectors common to virtually all AM receivers. Got that so far? The QAMs blended the audio below 1 khz into mono to comply. CQUAM had this cute little cosine detector with the ability to restore stereo separation below 1 khz that actually worked -- again only in optimal conditions. The single sideband system blended the audio above 7.5 khz into mono to enable that to work with envelope detectors. Now, modern FM receivers blend what audio frequencies to mono for noise reduction; the highs or the lows? Why?

Grab a Sony SRF A100, turn it on and place it in AM stereo mode. Find a station with co-channel and/or skywave interference and listen through headphones. Flip the mode switch from "A" (QAM) to "B". Which sounds more robust and steady. Why? It doesn't matter if the station is stereo or mono, the detectors behave the same way. The Sony SRF A100 used a QAM detector for both the 4 QAM signals AND the single sideband signals also! The linear (L+R) and quadrature (L-R) signals were added in a matrix to produce stereo audio for the 4 QAM systems. Those same two detector outputs are audio and the entire audio is band shifted +45 degrees for one output and the other output audio is band shifted -45 degrees. There is your 90 degree difference which is then matrixed into discrete L and R audio. Understand? The Harris system was perfect because it was the only one providing a linear signal with no out of channel emissions. Unfortunately it suffered the same limitations as the other 3 QAMs.

Bottom line for analog AM stereo? It was basically a $12,000 gimmick (a new 5kw transmitter cost $35,000 back then for comparison), plus coin for audio processing, monitor, transmitter/antenna work... It was a beautiful thing but it flat out failed in practical MW working conditions. Why? Because the guy who didn't have the time to slog through the swamp was the same type of guy inveigled into purchasing the white elephant in the first place. Why? Because he figured he KNEW IT ALL. Ever met someone like that?

When I heard the IBOC people testing with knowledge and understanding, I jumped in because they are doing things that are PRACTICAL for actual working conditions, therefore I know that this puppy will fly.

I am trying to troubleshoot IBOC problems hoping that somehow my ideas may help get this baby off the ground. I have no horse in this race and I am not a shill for Ibiquity, CC, CBS or anyone else. My ideas are meant in a constructive manner and I really do not know if any of them are even worth the pixels they are printed with.

I have no negative thing to say about Arbitron or any other entity. Please don't sandcastle my statements. We are all learning about this technology and we all bump and stumble. Hopefully my words could provide Arbitron some sort of enlightenment, if any is in fact needed at all. I ain't got the answers!

At least I'm attempting to add something more than "bad clams" or "corporate greed".

One thing you are guaranteed is that I will NEVER accuse Ibiquity or any other IBOC participants of "bad engineering"! These people are class A, top shelf engineers!

The fact that in TEN years of radio you've only heard ONE non-radio person even know HD radio exists proves that the only real problem with IBOC is "radio people" who have never bothered to see how things are going "in the swamp". Nope. Engaging in rectal discourse seems to be their forte!

See if you can come up with at least ONE original thought re: IBOC.

Thanks!


-

 

[rbrucecarter5]

One thing you are guaranteed is that I will NEVER accuse Ibiquity or any other IBOC participants of "bad engineering"! These people are class A, top shelf engineers!

Then I will! I am an engineer myself. The system was obviously rushed to market without adequate testing, and with a definite "cover up" mentality. If I were responsible for such a fiasco, I would expect to get fired - my professional reputation severely tarnished. And rightly so.

Why do I think it was rushed to the market without adequate testing? Because they should have known the problems of poor coverage - and susceptibility of the digital carriers to outside interference before they even went to over the air testing. Due diligence would have been to set up a low power version of a transmitter, put it through known attenuators, receive it and see how much signal it actually took to get lock. After that, perform the tests with noise injected, with other sources of modulation simulating adjacent channels, etc. If there tests had actually been done, the shortcomings of the system would have forced them back to the drawing board before the system ever got on real stations. Obviously, due diligence testing wasn't done in the lab. The entire country was used as a guinea pig, and by then there was too much invested in the existing system to scrap it and come up with something that actually worked.

Why do I say there was a cover up mentality? Because when the problems emerged, iBiquity went after the ones pointing out the problems - broadcast engineers who had to make it work and especially DX'ers - a more technically savvy group of listeners than the average lemming out there who just shrugs their shoulders and gives up when there is a reception problem. Look at what happened to digitaldisaster.org. Either paid off or warned off. The suppression of uncomfortable knowledge by going after the ones who point out the information is a clear sign that they may have known about the problems very early in the roll-out, but chose to ignore them - hoping inertia and massive public acceptance would vindicate them. In spite of tremendous effort to get the inertia and public acceptance - they are now left holding the bag - of a technically flawed system that almost nobody wants.

Engineering screw up of epic proportions. And anybody saying different is hunted down by the HD alliance and marginalized, ridiculed and insulted. I am just glad lives were not at stake in this system. If lives had been at stake, lives would have been lost. It is bad enough that the listenability of US radio bands has been compromised. That is bad enough, but at least nobody has died as a result of it.

 

[diymedia]

Digitaldisaster.org, a product of Chris Maxwell, withered and died on the vine when he jumped in head-first to LPFM. No intimidation or payoff there. Plus, it was hosted on AOL, and when they started shriveling they killed off the free web pages, and Chris never moved the info anywhere else.

As for the engineers that have designed/tweaked HD Radio - they were working with a flawed concept, trying to make the best of it. You know, 10 pounds of poo in a 5 pound bag sort of thing. I have lots of respect for the folks at NPR Labs, and they're eminently talented, but when a system's flawed by design there's not a lot one can do to fix those flaws without completely redesigning the system (which nobody has the political or economic impetus to do).

 

[tomservo]

When I heard the IBOC people testing with knowledge and understanding, I jumped in because they are doing things that are PRACTICAL for actual working conditions, therefore I know that this puppy will fly.

I don't see how you can say that when FM HD depends on having clear first adjacents to work and AM HD doesn't work where AM needs the most help: underpasses, under power lines and in the fringes.

So far the only "success" stories of AM HD I've heard on this board are from non-directional 50 kW blowtorches where ground conductivity is good. It seems on anything less (what 90% of Americans can actually receive, that is) it fails miserably, even up to "I can see the tower but can't get a lock."

 

[iyiyi]

When I heard the IBOC people testing with knowledge and understanding, I jumped in because they are doing things that are PRACTICAL for actual working conditions, therefore I know that this puppy will fly.

I don't see how you can say that when FM HD depends on having clear first adjacents to work and AM HD doesn't work where AM needs the most help: underpasses, under power lines and in the fringes.

So far the only "success" stories of AM HD I've heard on this board are from non-directional 50 kW blowtorches where ground conductivity is good. It seems on anything less (what 90% of Americans can actually receive, that is) it fails miserably, even up to "I can see the tower but can't get a lock."

Let me try a different tack (v2.0).

I am here within eyesight of an operating 102.7's tower. I am also listening to cowboy music on the HDs of a 102.5 that is 60 miles away, on an Insignia 01.

On the lower level of the GWB I can get The Fan (660) and the FM HDs. Zilch on the satellite. The satellite drops out a couple hundred feet AFTER I go beneath overpasses. Took me a while to figure out that the buffer holds info for a few seconds, but peters out until enough data returns to replenish the signal.

The IBOC people are remiss regarding AM HDs. These people have enough bow-wow AMs that continually produce no ratings and/or income. There is absolutely no excuse for them not to flip some of these dogs to full power digital to demonstrate HD's full abilities on the MW band. This is gonna continually bite them in the ass until they can prove MW HD's viability.

A credible poster in another forum claims an HD on 101.5 located near Orlando, FL placed their HDs on a 101.5 in Providence, RI. The RI 101.5 had their HD off for upgrade. This happened during E-skip (of course) but the fact that an HD travels 1,200 miles and drapes itself on the analog of another station tells me that HD isn't the sissy many people portray it to be.

Finally, please name ONE C-QUAM AM stereo station in the top 50 markets that has ever received ROI from setting up and running stereo. Ratings or financial.

Thank you!


-

 

[Savage]

The "only real problem with IBOC is radio people??" Thanks, and Happy Thanksgiving, everybody!!

And: "try to come up with one original thought about HD?" I've been doing that for five years, and was an early commentator pointing out the emperor's lack of clothing as early as 2006. Unfortunately for HD pushers like you, my observations have resonated with the vast majority of radio professionals. Because I speak objective truth instead of wishful thinking, outrageous fibbing and hype mixed with the inevitable attacks on IBOC critics. As has been oft repeated, if HD Radio really had any merit, it wouldn't be necessary to defend it constantly with labored argument and rationalization. Everyone would simply install and enjoy.

And now that I mention it, THAT'S the difference between FM and HD. Take it from someone who was in this industry when FM was taking off: there wasn't any debate, because the superiority of FM was obvious to anyone with a brain. HD: it's the opposite. No thinking consumer or professional can see any need or benefit, while there are overwhelming negatives. And which is why, despite your earnest howlers posted here about HD, it's going nowhere. Ever.

 

[tomservo]

The IBOC people are remiss regarding AM HDs. These people have enough bow-wow AMs that continually produce no ratings and/or income. There is absolutely no excuse for them not to flip some of these dogs to full power digital to demonstrate HD's full abilities on the MW band. This is gonna continually bite them in the ass until they can prove MW HD's viability.

It may shock some here but I actually think this is a good idea, at least from an experimental standpoint.

Maybe if AM HD could do better in full digital mode, it could be a flash cut replacement for struggling AMs.

I'm not convinced it's any better than the hybrid claptrap we have now, but I'm willing to let someone else try.

 

[iyiyi]

The "only real problem with IBOC is radio people??" Thanks, and Happy Thanksgiving, everybody!!

And: "try to come up with one original thought about HD?" I've been doing that for five years, and was an early commentator pointing out the emperor's lack of clothing as early as 2006. Unfortunately for HD pushers like you, my observations have resonated with the vast majority of radio professionals. Because I speak objective truth instead of wishful thinking, outrageous fibbing and hype mixed with the inevitable attacks on IBOC critics. As has been oft repeated, if HD Radio really had any merit, it wouldn't be necessary to defend it constantly with labored argument and rationalization. Everyone would simply install and enjoy.

And now that I mention it, THAT'S the difference between FM and HD. Take it from someone who was in this industry when FM was taking off: there wasn't any debate, because the superiority of FM was obvious to anyone with a brain. HD: it's the opposite. No thinking consumer or professional can see any need or benefit, while there are overwhelming negatives. And which is why, despite your earnest howlers posted here about HD, it's going nowhere. Ever.

Happy Thanksgiving and God's blessings to you and yours, my friend!

I've posted enough about FM's tribulations. Couldn't hurt to read a couple of them.

The only real "proponent" of HD that has tackled controversial HD issues on this site lately is me. I have yet to hear an "amen" from anyone else regarding any HD ideas I've tried to field. There is absolutely no shortage of folk willing to ream me for my statements here though. No problems. I'm the guy that takes a knocking and keeps on rocking, so there are no hard feelings from me toward anyone who disagrees. I've learned a long time ago that before jumping into anything I'd better realize I'm going to get socked around some.

My "labored arguments and rationalization" could possibly be construed as "facts backing up my statements" to a small few, so I add them just for giggles. It looks like you saw right through my lack of knowledge though. Well you can fool all of the people some of the time...


-

 

[Chuck]

Maybe if AM HD could do better in full digital mode, it could be a flash cut replacement for struggling AMs.

I'm not convinced it's any better than the hybrid claptrap we have now, but I'm willing to let someone else try.

I’m sure it would be an improvement over what we have now, but not many AM station owners are suicidal enough to try it. With very few receivers out there, even in major markets, it would be a long time until you could sell it to sponsors. From a business point of view, it would be like waiting for your Enron stock to come back....