Another Public Radio Station Drops Music

[cyberdad]

On the surface at least, the WBEZ move is a little hard to fathom. The formula had been basically high quality in-depth new talk during the day, music (chiefly jazz) at night. It had been doing at least reasonably well by most accounts. One loyal following by day...another loyal following at night (with no other full-signal "traditional" jazz outlet available).

I'm not alone in the view of finding it hard to understand how what's basically a nighttime flip is going to help them.

 

[fred flintstone]

Audience flow builds an audience. Having one format during the day and another at night disrupts audience flow and forces the station to start over twice a day. In addition, neither audience is being satisfied full-time.

Music listeners don't pledge. Stations can increase revenue with news-talk, even if they have fewer listeners (which is usually not the case). Most of the best performing (in Arbitron ratings) public radio stations in major markets are news-talk stations. They do better in listener pledges and in corporate underwriting.

WBEZ's move is good business. Apparently WETA's board has too many political types on its board and wants to do what politicians do - compromise and try to please everybody. No way to run a radio station.

Public radio's future is news-talk. Classical and jazz listeners have been deserting radio for years. They are better served by satellite radio, the Internet and mp3 players.

 

[NewsNow]

WETA would be better off to go to an all classical format or triple A. WAMU has the NPR audience locked up and WETA hasn't made a dent. Additionally, they kept their staff of classical announcers and are trying to tunr them into feature producers with pretty low quality results. Their stuff sounds like something you'd hear an intern do at a university licensee.

Plus, for much of the day, WAMU and WETA mirror each other.

And like I posted earlier, classical gets a big share on DC. Before Bonneville moved it off to lesser signals, it got a 5 share. Even on the new frequencies, it still pulls triple the listeners than when CHR and modern AC were on the same frequencies. If (actually when) WGMS finally drops classical, a public station could probably make it on underwriting alone if they picked up the format.

One other comment, I and many other PDs flipped stations to the NPR lineup (while we also created a classical station). It does make more money and grows audience. However, it also costs ALOT more. CPB did a study of station finances called "Having It All". Very few of the highly rated major market news stations had it all (all the shows they'd like, the staff, the facilities). Or, some did have it all, while heaping on debt. WBUR is probably the chief example of this. Very few music formatted stations live as close to the ragged edge of insolvency.

 

[Ike]

Since the last post, WETA has indeed gone all-classical.

Music listeners don't pledge? Bull. DCRTV.com notes that, according to a Wash. Post article, "WETA-FM [since flipping to classical] is now the 5th most listened-to station in the market. ...another public station, news/talk WAMU, shot from 3.6 percent in the fall to 4.3 percent of the listening audience from January to March, giving it a 6th place ranking among all local stations."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/04/AR2007060401707.html

Personally I would've preferred seeing WETA switch to triple-A, but oh well, I guess this might work better in that seemingly very conservative radio market.

Another argument in favor of non-comm music stations: WFMU, a small free-form music station in New Jersey, raises nearly a million dollars a year while doing only two weeks of on-air fundraising each year. They have a passionate music listenership.

I think the poster who argues that music listeners don't pledge just doesn't understand the appeal of really good music radio which exposes artists and genres never heard on commercial radio. Is he one of those overpaid public radio consultants who makes heaps of money telling these stations to flip to news/talk?

 

[bierkenstock]

Since the last post, WETA has indeed gone all-classical.

Music listeners don't pledge? Bull. DCRTV.com notes that, according to a Wash. Post article, "WETA-FM [since flipping to classical] is now the 5th most listened-to station in the market. ...another public station, news/talk WAMU, shot from 3.6 percent in the fall to 4.3 percent of the listening audience from January to March, giving it a 6th place ranking among all local stations."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/04/AR2007060401707.html

Personally I would've preferred seeing WETA switch to triple-A, but oh well, I guess this might work better in that seemingly very conservative radio market.

Another argument in favor of non-comm music stations: WFMU, a small free-form music station in New Jersey, raises nearly a million dollars a year while doing only two weeks of on-air fundraising each year. They have a passionate music listenership.

I think the poster who argues that music listeners don't pledge just doesn't understand the appeal of really good music radio which exposes artists and genres never heard on commercial radio. Is he one of those overpaid public radio consultants who makes heaps of money telling these stations to flip to news/talk?

An old thread comes back from the dead after five months. Wow!

No, music listeners don't pledge, at least not at the radio news and information listeners pledge.

You like classical music. I get it.

Facts are facts.

You say the assertion that classical fans don't pledge is "bull." Your rebuttal is an article quoting ratings. Ratings are whether people listen. Pledging is a whole other matter.

You attribute an earlier post to "an overpaid consultant." I know it's fashionable to blame consultants (I enjoy doing that myself). However, stations are the ones who receive pledges and track pledges. They know what makes the phone ring during pledge week and what doesn't.

In the Washington market, WETA had attempted to go from classical to news and information in competition with an already well-established and popular public radio news and information station. It was a dumb move. The audience for public radio news/talk was already locked in to (and pledging) WAMU. WETA ran most of the same programs. It had nothing new, different or better to offer.

But back to the original point: News and information may draw more listeners but not always. Some of the top rated public radio stations are still news and fine arts, the so called tent-pole format, with news programming in morning and afternoon drive and usually into early evening and classical at other times. But these tent pole stations still get a disproportionate share of pledge revenue from the news shows.

Fact: News and information listeners pledge at a rate on average three times that of classical listeners. Put another way, if classical gets three times the listeners, it can expect about the same in pledge revenue. WETA, which was a long-time fine arts station before it's foray into news/talk, now has the classical audience to itself (a commercial classical station flipped). Even with a lower pledge rate for classical, they will probably do better with a classical monopoly than as the also-ran public radio news and information outlet.

When I was a student, I often confused reality with how I thought things should be, too. Student radio and the broadcasting industry are two different worlds.

 

[Ike]

You like classical music. I get it.

Actually, no, I can't stand classical music. But I was glad to see WETA stop fighting with WAMU over the news/talk NPR audience and go with a (now) unique format. Although unfortunately, that will probably encourage WAMU to drop the last few bluegrass programs on its schedule. Now that is (or was) something truly unique and local in the market.

Your rebuttal is an article quoting ratings. Ratings are whether people listen. Pledging is a whole other matter.

The Wash. Post article itself specified the amount of money WETA has raised. It's impressive. Older affluent listeners have lots of money to pledge.

When I was a student, I often confused reality with how I thought things should be, too. Student radio and the broadcasting industry are two different worlds.

Eh? I'm not a student. Or was that just a non sequitur? Anyway, thanks for the response.

 

[bierkenstock]

The Wash. Post article itself specified the amount of money WETA has raised. It's impressive. Older affluent listeners have lots of money to pledge.

Apples and oranges. The issue was the rate at which listeners pledge. Not ratings. Not total contributions.

You imply you are in Northern New Jersey (former librarian of a student radio station and a North Jersey non-commercial station is your "hobby"). I'm not sure why you should care that WETA went back to Classical, or why WAMU should continue a few Bluegrass segments (it broadcasts Bluegrass on one of its HD channels and on a full-time audio stream).

People with money to pledge also have money to spend. MP3 players, the Internet and Satellite Radio are far better media for music than is radio. Radio's unique selling point is the ability to offer content which is immediate and/or local. Public radio's news and information format plays to radio's strengths (as well as to what more listeners respond to with contributions). Also people, especially older people, with money to spend, don't spend it. This is why commercial formats with older audiences are less appealing to advertisers.

It's an established fact that classical listeners do not contribute at the same rate as news/talk listeners (meaning a smaller percentage of them contribute). You may wish this were not so but it is well-established fact. You may feel that public radio managers should not care about what programming yields contributions (just as some on the various commercial format boards complain that station managers should not care which format brings in the most sales revenue). That's another topic and a worthwhile one. A commercial station is a business. A non-commercial station is supposed to be a non-profit, public service organization. Even by that standard, it's hard to argue public radio news and public affairs programs don't perform a public service. I don't think there is the same degree of public service "urgency" for music formats not heard on the radio in a given market (classic, bluegrass or alternative). Even when a given music genre is not on broadcast radio, it still is available through newer media and newer technology.

The question I think people should be asking is why classical listeners (especially those with extra money) do not show more financial support for classical music radio. As a station volunteer, I've talked to many and what I get is a sense of entitlement to classical programming. It's ironic that Lawrence Welk makes pledge phones ring for public television (older viewers, often those who do not have a lot of money) but classical does not do the same for public radio stations.

I don't think denial of the documented non-response of classical listeners is a useful response nor is attacking someone for raising the issue.

 

[Ike]

You may feel that public radio managers should not care about what programming yields contributions (just as some on the various commercial format boards complain that station managers should not care which format brings in the most sales revenue). That's another topic and a worthwhile one. A commercial station is a business. A non-commercial station is supposed to be a non-profit, public service organization.

Aha! Thank you. You took the words right out of my typing fingers. I meant to bring up this point earlier.

Even by that standard, it's hard to argue public radio news and public affairs programs don't perform a public service. I don't think there is the same degree of public service "urgency" for music formats not heard on the radio in a given market (classic, bluegrass or alternative). Even when a given music genre is not on broadcast radio, it still is available through newer media and newer technology.

News, talk, and information are also provided through newer media and newer technology. IMO music and news/talk are equally important public services. That's my opinion of course, and I'm not sure I can verbalize precisely why. Music simply matters more to me than endless discussions of any kind. I feel that newspapers and news sites on the web are infinitely more useful than news and talk on the radio. Certainly many people will disagree with me. Now, if there's only one public radio station in a given market, then I probably wouldn't oppose it going mostly news-talk, but two, or three? D.C. already has WAMU plus C-SPAN radio and the much-maligned Wash. Post radio, as well as WTOP.

Also, I don't think audience flow should be a major concern of any public radio officials. I always liked the idea of popular shows like Morning Edition and ATC providing a powerful lead-in for good music programming that a lot of people would otherwise never check out. A lot of classical and jazz fans are created that way. Maybe those music programs don't hold on to their entire lead-ins, but that's the kind of thing a commercial station should worry about, not so much a non-comm.

I'm not sure why you should care that WETA went back to Classical, or why WAMU should continue a few Bluegrass segments (it broadcasts Bluegrass on one of its HD channels and on a full-time audio stream).

Isn't that what this board is for? It's a board about public radio in general, not confined to a specific geographic area. Anyway, I grew up in Maryland and still visit the D.C. area frequently, and lament the fact that there's nothing as good as WFMU or WNYU or WKCR there, or even WFUV, WXPN, or heck, even my mostly-dreadful alma mater station. Sure, you can listen online, but tons of people spend hours and hours in their cars, stuck on the Beltway or some other horrible traffic mess, and can't listen to good stations like those online from there unless they have one of those very expensive newfangled cellphones that get AAC+ web radio. They can listen to XM or Sirius, sure, but really, I'm not impressed with the quality or the choices on either when compared to some of the better non-comms around the country.

I don't think denial of the documented non-response of classical listeners is a useful response nor is attacking someone for raising the issue.

(?!) I don't recall attacking anyone. Maybe you mean my use of "bull?" I didn't mean that in a rude way.... 8^)

 

[bierkenstock]

Ike, I can see your viewpoint.

I did not mean to suggest WETA's flip was not an appropriate topic. I just was curious as to the source of your interest in this particular format change.

One thing I would take issue with, however. I think public radio stations DO need to be concerned with things such as audience flow. They are non-profits and should be concerned with more than dollars and cents but neither are they completely isolated from the same realities that face commercial broadcasters.

It does seem reasonable for a public radio station to have two formats which share time. Given that most listeners listen only during morning and afternoon drive, the presence of another format may not matter much to them. There is some evidence that classical listeners don't necessarily hang around for the news programs and news listeners don't necessarily hang around for classical. Possibly part of the reason classical segments don't get the kind of financial support from listeners that news segment do is because classical is not available during radio's prime listening hours; the person who wants classical on his way to and from work is out of luck. During the day and in the evening, classical listeners may use the music as background and turn off the station when pledge-breaks intrude. Pledge breaks (someone talking) may be perceived as less disruptive in a news format (also someone talking).

The unpleasant part of this is greed also rules public radio (at least in the major markets).
Station management often draws outrageously high salaries.
Stations don't pay stockholders but they do build fancy buildings in prime locations and fill it with state of the art equipment.
And they often use surplus funds to start for-profit subsidiaries.

Public radio has to bring in money (just like commercial radio). Very little of the money comes from the CPB. A small portion does comes from memberships. Most of the money comes corporate underwriting. They don't call it advertising but it is. Their "development" people go to companies with audience numbers and demographic data to show how underwriting public radio will be good business.

Yes, there are still some small public radio stations run on a shoe-string and mostly staffed by volunteers. For the most part, they can't afford NPR/PRI/APM programming. They run blocks of different types of programming based mostly on what volunteers want to do. They usually don't have many listeners but they can have a small but devoted following. Even so, I don't know that this is a better way to run things.

The ultimate problem is not enough bandwidth. Maybe if HD ever catches on we can have WETA-1 Classical, WETA-2 Jazz, WETA-3 Concerts and Fine Arts, WAMU-1 News and Information, WAMU-2 Bluegrass and WAMU-3 Public affairs. Everybody will be happy until somebody decides they want Standards or Big Band.

 

[MikefromDelaware]

Public radio in Philly seems to be doing quite well. WXPN from U of Penn with adult alternative music. WHYY-FM is the news/info/talk NPR station. WRTI from Temple Univ has their own network of stations that broadcast their daytime Classical Music and nighttime Jazz and NPR newscasts to the tri-state region. From what I was recently reading, when WRTI added Classical Music to their format the station's income has increased dramatically. Below is the listing of their network (someone is ponying up some cash to keep all this on the air):
WRTI NETWORK
WRTI
90.1 FM - Philadelphia
97.7 FM - Reading
97.1 FM - Allentown
107.7 FM - Wilmington

WJAZ
91.7 FM - Harrisburg
90.7 FM - York
WRTL
90.7 FM - Lancaster
Ephrata
Lebanon

WRTY
91.1 FM - Mt. Pocono
94.9 FM - Wilkes-Barre
99.1 FM - Pottsville
106.1 FM - Scranton
WRTQ
91.3 FM - Ocean City
WRTX
91.7 FM - Dover

 

[Al Johnson]

Except for WRTI, Philadelphia, these are all repeaters. They don't cost much.

WRTI switched from full-time jazz to 12 hours jazz; 12 hours classical about 10 years ago after WHYY-FM dropped classical music from the schedule (middays, evenings and weekends) and a commercial classical station changed formats (and donated their music library to WRTI). Their revenue did not increase. They ended up alienating both classical and jazz fans.

 

[MikefromDelaware]

I'd say that WRTI is a radio success story. Below is taken from their web site:

WRTI History
WRTI was founded in 1948 as a campus-limited "carrier current" AM radio station by Professor emeritus John Roberts (long-time news anchor at Philadelphia’s Channel 6), who helped form the School of Communications and Theater at Temple University. The station was originally intended as a student laboratory and its call letters, RTI, stand for “Radio Technical Institute.”

In 1953, WRTI became a licensed FM radio station, reaching out to the nearby community with limited power. In 1968, WRTI adopted an all-jazz format. When Philadelphia’s only full-time classical music station, WFLN, switched formats in 1997, WRTI added the classics just one week later. Since these two musical art forms joined forces, Temple University Public Radio has seen its ratings and audience share rise dramatically. With classical music during the day and jazz in the evening and through the night, the station has become the top-rated public radio station in the area, and one of the highest-rated in the nation.

If finances were a problem, cheap or not, WRTI would not continue to add new repeaters (the 107.7 repeater in Wilmington is new and makes it a "Wilmington market station" as far as signal strength is concerned, rather than a rim shot station with a very weak signal). So I have to disagree with you, WRTI is doing just fine and those of us in the tri-state area who listen and enjoy both their Classical and Jazz music, as I do, appreciate it and am glad for it.

 

[Dancerev889]

WRTI isnt making more money? Thats BS. Since the switch they have made a ton more money. In the past few years they moved to a new facility and pay their own rent. I think you should check whom you are getting your sources from.

Its funny how a lot of people think public radio should support NPR but in reality they are a major cash cow. I was talking to a local PD and they were telling that NPR programming costs over 50,000 a year. Dont they get money from the federal government?

I run a non-comm in the philly market and I dont think it matters what you play. Public radio isnt just talk, jazz, classical or AAA. We tend to forget the younger demographic. I applaud a station like KNHC in Seattle. A high school station that makes over a 100,000 in their yearly drive.

 

[MikefromDelaware]

The Univ of Delaware's WVUD 91.3 is an example of a non-comm non NPR station that plays all sorts of music, as taken from their web site:

WVUD Program Descriptions

Java Time --
6:00 to 9:00 A.M.
WVUD's morning variety program
Roots -- 9:00 A.M. to 12:00 P.M.
All kinds of folk, for all kinds of folks
Public Affairs I -- not aired during summer
Informational programming Fine Tuning -- 12:00 to 3:00 P.M.
Classical Music
Neoteric --
3:00 to 5:00 P.M.
Anything and everything Cutting Edge -- 5:00 to 7:00 P.M.
Alternative, modern, new rock
Student Freeform -- not aired during summer
UD Student Expression
Public Affairs II-- 7:00 to 8:00 P.M.
Informational programming
Specialty -- 8:00 to 10:00 P.M.
Each night of the week is something different Avenue C --
10:00 PM. to 1:00 AM.
Delaware's only daily jazz show Overnight -- 1:00 to 6:00 A.M.
Freeform Variety

Saturday
Programs

Boptime -- 6:00 to 10:00 A.M.
Listen to Even Steven play music of the '40s, '50s, and '60s: beebop, hotbop, cool school, R&B, pop, rock 'n' roll Fire on the Mountain -- 10:00 A.M. to 12:00 P.M.
Bluegrass and old-time country music

Rural Free Delivery -- 12:00 to 2:00 P.M.
Some more bluegrass and old-time country music A Gift of Song: Gospel Jubilee -- 2:00 to 4:00 P.M.
Traditional and contemporary gospel music
Radio Uno -- 4:00 to 6:00 P.M.
Latin music on the area's oldest bilingual radio program Hip City Part 2 -- 6:00 to 9:00 P.M.
Rhythm & Blues, Oldies, and Soul Music from the 50's, 60's, and 70's
Ruffage -- 9:00 P.M. to 12:00 A.M.
Metal, with Josh Baran


On the Flip Side -- 12:00 A.M. to 2:00 A.M.
Rick Lewis brings you doo-wop and group harmony sounds from the 50's and 60's.

Sunday
Programs

The Morning Fog -- 6:00 to 9:00 A.M.
Early morning ambience for sleeping or waking, with Mark Ellis / Dave Vallee / Steven Goddard The Morning After -- 9:00 A.M. to 12:00 P.M.
Eclectic blend of music to accompany your Sunday paper
Radio Alchemy -- 12:00 to 1:00 P.M.
Tony Maxwell presents an educational and motivational talk program intended to share often-unique perspectives on life - Professional speakers, consultants, writers, artists, and others are interviewed Sunday Afternoon Selections -- 1:00 to 2:00 P.M.
Rob Bies keeps you going through Sunday with an incredible blend of alternative music
Rhyme and Reason -- 2:00 to 3:00 P.M.
Rob Bies presents the only show in the area with post-punk and new wave music Open Your Mind -- 3:00 to 4:00 P.M.
Tune in to Hector Gomez discussing issues of diversity with guests and interviews
Raga -- 4:00 to 6:00 P.M.
Sourav Banerjee gives you four diverse genres of music from India, traditional as well as modern Crazy College -- 6:00 to 7:00 P.M.
All musics odd, silly or arcane - Allan Sherman, Stan Freberg, Weird Al and then some - with George Stewart
Scratchy Grooves -- 7:00 to 8:00 P.M.
Brian Lee Hart plays music from the era of the 78 RPM In a Mist -- 8:00 to 11:00 P.M.
A classy show of big band sounds from the '30s, '40s, and '50s, with Roger Holmes

 

[Al Johnson]

I'd say that WRTI is a radio success story. Below is taken from their web site:

If you read station websites, everybody is a major success.

WRTI isnt making more money? Thats BS. Since the switch they have made a ton more money. In the past few years they moved to a new facility and pay their own rent. I think you should check whom you are getting your sources from.

Its funny how a lot of people think public radio should support NPR but in reality they are a major cash cow. I was talking to a local PD and they were telling that NPR programming costs over 50,000 a year. Dont they get money from the federal government?

CPB grants and pledges are minor sources of revenue for most public radio stations (especially the majors). Most of the money comes from corporate sponsors.

Cash cow? Not sure what you mean. NPR programs are a major expense for stations. (An expense stations like WRTI save by playing mostly music and using few NPR programs.) They are also a major source of revenue since listeners pledge in response to NPR programs (especially news and public affairs) and corporate sponsors want to place announcements in those programs. And they draw the biggest audiences.

Yes, there are still music stations around. In large part, because most markets will support only one public radio news and information format station (which is almost always the dominant public radio station where multiple stations exist). What this thread is talking about is the mixed-bag tent-pole stations running block program schedules, with NPR news programs morning and afternoon and various music formats the rest of the time. Those stations have been dropping the music programs and going with an all news/talk schedule. Why? Because talk gets them more listeners and more money. Yes, a proportion of classical and jazz listeners contribute, too, but not the same percentage as for news/talk listeners.

And yes, non-commercial student stations and hobby stations will continue to play music, too. It's cheap. Volunteers provide programming. And, yes, some pledges do come in. But it's far from major league public radio.

 

[MikefromDelaware]

And yes, non-commercial student stations and hobby stations will continue to play music, too. It's cheap. Volunteers provide programming. And, yes, some pledges do come in. But it's far from major league public radio.

WVUD may not be a major league public radio station, but they are a unique station that has a "hometown" feel to it. It isn't the slick polished product of "big time radio", but the station has a loyal base who are regular listeners and regular supporters at pledge time. Granted their bottomline is far smaller than say a WHYY-FM or WRTI, but WVUD does have expenses too that have to be met. My guess is that the UofD doesn't consider their radio station to be a hobby station, but more of a public service to the community and of course good PR for the community and alumni who support the university with donations.

 

[Ike]

Public radio shouldn't be trying to become "major-league" in my opinion. That's not the point of its existence. And I don't like hearing all those non-commercial commercials (a.k.a. "underwriting") from giant corporations on supposedly non-comm NPR/PRI stations. I thought "underwriting" was supposed to stick to facts only to differentiate it from real advertising, but in recent years, they don't seem to be following that rule. I hear corporate slogans used, but it isn't made clear that they're slogans, not statements of fact.

WVUD is a neat station -- I listen when I'm in the area. Occasionally I tune into WMPH too. That must be one of the longest-running dance stations in the country. They've been playing that same format for at least 12 years now, or maybe a lot more. Personally I prefer WVUD though.

I don't like WRTI as much as since they switched from 24-hour jazz to a classical/jazz combination, but I'm sure they make more money with the combination. Too bad they didn't at least restrict the classical music to the Philly station at 90.1 and continue doing all-jazz on the other stations, since Harrisburg-York-Lancaster and Dover both already had classical stations at 89.5, while Scranton etc. already had one at 89.9, etc. Unfortunately I guess there are fewer jazz listeners with money to donate, and perhaps a lot of their jazz listeners were concentrated in Philly in the first place.

I had no idea that WRTI had a Wilmington translator at 107.7. Hmmm, after looking around, I see it's actually in Marshallton, DE and it's very directional. Doesn't look like it likely reaches a lot of Wilmington. And doesn't RTI already have good coverage of Wilmington at 90.1? Is this translator really necessary?

 

[MikefromDelaware]

I had no idea that WRTI had a Wilmington translator at 107.7. Hmmm, after looking around, I see it's actually in Marshallton, DE and it's very directional. Doesn't look like it likely reaches a lot of Wilmington. And doesn't RTI already have good coverage of Wilmington at 90.1? Is this translator really necessary?

If you looked at the maps on radio locator, the main transmitter at 90.1 covers Northern New Castle County including the city of Wilmington, the 107.7 transmitter which is transmitting at 250watts, covers the metro area South and West of Wilmington so that WRTI is now heard clearly in most of New Castle County including the City of Wilmington. That map is not quite correct though, WRTI's signal in downtown Wilmington isn't great either as compared to WHYY-FM for example. The new 107.7 signal corrects that based on my last trip into the city of Wilmington. Prior to 107.7 going on line, I could get a very staticfilled signal at 90.1 making WRTI unlistenable at home and non existant at work, now I get it clear and static free both at home and at work, plus I can listen in the car driving around the metro area. So if WRTI wanted to truly include the Wilmington metro area as a solid part of their audience 107.7 was needed.