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Another Utica shake-up: Keeler

Sure, Keeler might have a bigger reach on WIBX, and it might get better numbers than WIBX's current morning drive. BUT, when you have a contract with a network like CBS or FOX, you have to carry it every hour. They have barter spots involved, and you can't just blow them off at will -- especially in morning drive.

If Keeler were ever to go with WIBX, he would have to work around what Rush calls "the constraints of the format" and take a hard break at the top of the hour. Would he want to do that? You don't have that restriction on FM radio... where it's OK to hit the news at 7:59 or 8:01, and the host can joke around with the news guy on all of the stories. When your news is being piped in on the network, the anchor can't hear the local jock and interact with the joking. (I suppose the alternative could be skipping the net news, but playing their spots as close as possible to TOH anyway, though enforcing that policy has the potential to be a pain in the neck.)

Well, it's a moot point... WXUR is Keeler's choice, and even though the details of the agreement weren't in the paper, we can probably assume it's at least a 2-year deal. Keeler didn't have too many options, so I doubt he did a one-year deal with the hopes that "something better" would come along. We all know he did best with a classic rock format, but now with ex-boss Levine locking up the rock stations in town, that'll never happen again. Oldies is the second-best choice. Regent probably didn't want him on WODZ (if Mary Jo were ever to try for Keeler, I'd assume she'd try to get him on WODZ before even considering WIBX), so that leaves WXUR.
 
Bob...I agree that WODZ would be a better choice than WIBX, but there are many morning shows that take the hard break at the top of the hour for FOX news, or any other network news, such as WSYR and WGY. I think with Keelers talent, and the pace of his styled show, breaking for the news at the top of the hour would not be that big of a deal. I do not think WGY and WSYR sound bad at all in the morning with news, sports, and weather inserted into each hour, along with the host. Having FOX at the top of the hour instead of CBS, at leat in my view, would make the station sound more upbeat too. Hard to get a younger adult pumped up listening to a news/talk station, when the main network like CBS puts you back to sleep.

Not saying WGY is perfect, but that station just moves at a rapid pace, its run very tight and I find myself becoming more involved as a listener than with other news stations, includingt WIBX. Even the national talk shows make a difference in listener perception. GY runs Shaun Hannity and that show moves, while Bill O'Riely in Utica crawls.

Anyway, always great to read everyones viewpoint on these subjects.
 
Dave4120 said:
Not saying WGY is perfect, but that station just moves at a rapid pace, its run very tight and I find myself becoming more involved as a listener than with other news stations, including WIBX. Even the national talk shows make a difference in listener perception. GY runs Shaun Hannity and that show moves, while Bill O'Riely in Utica crawls.
Click to expand...

Being the well-reasoned moderate that I am, the politics of O'Reilly and Hannity aren't my cup of tea. That said, I've advocated both for the (small market) stations that I used to consult because each has good name recognition and good support on Fox News. Even lefties recognize the names and that's half the battle in "cutting through the clutter." Of the two, I prefer O'Reilly's show because he at least appears to use more phoners than Hannity and he'll put on the token dissenting caller. I've also advocated Neil Boortz, who can appear right wing-ish at times but follows a libertarian path (at least according to his on line CV.)

One of the (many) ways to make a talk station sound like it has pace and tempo during syndicated satellite shows is to make sure the staging, promos, bumpers and beds are fresh, uptempo and a bit outside the box (read, "occasionally wacked out".)

A good Production Director can make all the difference in the world with in-show production pieces. Of course, this doesn't mean you can turn pig snot into platinum. Some syndicated shows are beyond help.

Regards,

Jim Pastrick
 
I love how this thread has kept evolving and crossing paths with the other WIBX/WSYR thread. Thankfully there aren't any stodgy moderators here (like on some other websites) yelling at us to keep it on topic. (I still think we're somewhat on topic anyway.)

I agree with you, Dave, that Keeler would sound much better with FOX than CBS. Much faster pace, and it would definitely help attract a younger audience. It would be like a trainwreck to have a good Keeler bit going, then to just come to a screeching halt for sleepy, old, boring CBS News. Even ABC News Radio would be better than CBS.

I think other parts of WIBX's lineup could use a shake-up too. If they were ever to get Keeler in the morning, they'd HAVE to follow him up with Glenn Beck. I've never been a fan of Laura Ingraham's screeching and yelling, regardless of whether I agree or disagree with her views. I just find her to be obnoxious and annoying. Beck, on the other hand, is engaging, often humorous, and he doesn't always make the show all about politics every day. He'd be a perfect follow-up to Keeler.

Now, we know no talk show with Rush would ever drop him, so we'll skip ahead to the 2-hour hole leading up to 5pm. I thought Clark Howard was great in this slot. You can't go wrong with "consumer empowerment." Informative, helpful, it provides a consumer benefit, and you don't have disgruntled listeners who feel they're being politically shunned. I'm usually at work when O'Reilly is on, but wasn't his show aired on WIBX with some kind of a weird delay? The first hour he'd be signing off, and then on the second hour, he'd be starting the show. And then at the end of "hour 2" on WIBX, he'd be teasing items that are coming up in the "real" hour 2, which had already aired. Never understood why they didn't tape-delay BOTH hours, so they could air in proper sequence. Or better yet, why they even went for the show in the first place, knowing that would be a problem beforehand.

As for the evening, local is good. The 5pm news, while littered with national/filler material just like its morning counterpart, is at least somewhat more tolerable since it's only an hour... and most of the local stuff is fresher, rather than a rehash of the night before. Sportwatch, can't go wrong there either, also local. As long as the host(s) is/are ambitious (at least more than Adam the Bull), the show will continue to survive. The loss of Utica's pro hockey and baseball teams a few years ago has no doubt made it more challenging for Sportswatch to come up with unique local content... but as long as there's desire and ambition, it'll work.

JimPastrick, I agree with you too. A good news/talker needs becomes a better news/talker by maximizing chances to keep the listener engaged. Just as music jocks are encouraged to talk right up to the intro post of a song, you should almost never hear network "rejoin" beds in the clear. There should always be something over it, whether it's a promo, a quick one-sentence news tease, something about the weather, or even just the name of the station. I also like it when stations sneak in a quick local news tease BEFORE the network news, as WGY always did, WIBX started a few months ago, and now that WSYR airs Fox TOH, they do it too. This is where you need to decide if you want to spend a ton of time tweaking your automation system to nail every network cue perfectly and then pray for the best... or if it's just easier (and better on-air) to have a skilled board op, at least during the prime daytime hours.

For example, sometimes Rush talks right up to the end of his hard breaks. But for those instances where he's done talking even 5 seconds early, a live board-op can be ready to fire a quick station ID stinger over that "warning bed" before the break begins. That's something you can't train the automation to do, because you can't predict when that 5-seconds of "clear" air over the bed will happen. Of course, this applies to nearly any talk show where there might be an occasional chance to cram in a quick promo or ID. It's really an argument over how much money you want to save, versus how tight you want the station to be. (And if you have a hokey automation system, sometimes the board-op salary justifies the potentially lost revenue when the automation fails to air spots, or winds up firing them over network content at the wrong times.) Board-ops can also be used to multi-task... dubbing in network barter spots, and other menial but necessary tasks, that can easily be done in the same control room.
 
Hi Bob and Jim...Great to have some interesting conversation on a wide topic of subjects and be able to voice our opinons, whether we are toally 100% correct or not.

Bob...totally forgot about Glen Beck. I agree...Glen Beck should be on a 9, then Rush. After Rush, is where we may have different views.

I'm sure you know that high school sports is back on WIBX, thanks to the enthusiasm and support of Mary Jo Beach, Manager. Fred Miller, along with his newspaper "My Hometown Sports" and the Sportswatch talk show he took over have helped get WIBX back on the map. The fan support and beyond belief and everyone is talking about it. From a production standpoint, the football, basketball and hockey games that WIBX now carries, sound like a college, pro or ESPN game. Does not sound like a high school game and they do not use a cell phone like every other station trying to do high school games. Wireless mics on the refs, sideline reports, replays, etc. These games are big events now.

With that said, I truly believe that after Rush, Sprotswatch should air from 3-5-PM or 5:30 with Fred. Plenty of local sports, mixed in with national. Then, run a 30-minute version of local news from 5:30-6-PM. There isn't enough local news for an hour, and who wants to be in there car, listening to all of these network features that are boring. One liner that WIBX has says..."Now, here's the headlines everyone's talking about". I'm not talking about them, so how does anyone else knowthat everyone is talking about them.

At 6-PM, I would then air Shaun Hannity, either until 9 or at least till 8, then they could still air Lars Larson. Get rid O'Rielly. Even now, they air his show out of hourly sequence, which doesn't make sense.
I think the station needs a real good fine tuning from common sense programming, thinking out of the box, to sound quality.

On another topic...Listened to Keeler make his WXUR-92.7 debut this morning. Keeler sounds just as good as ever. Obviously, the overall sound quality was not that great since he was using a Comrex unit to broadcast out of his office studios until they can get things on track. Understand that Mindy, the owner of the station is actually moving her entire studios to Keelers facilities. I would guess that all parties involved are going to make a maximum effort to promote this station, and get it on the map, since most people do not even know WXUR exists. Maybe Keeler will be a part owner someday. I am sure, they will invest some money, finally on the qulaity of the sound of WXUR. Right now, it is very muddy, and flat. Almost sounds like AM radio sound on FM.

In any event, I'm sure Bill will do fine. He is very talented.
 
I never considered the idea of putting Sportswatch on earlier. A good point. However, high school sports, or sports talk in general, no matter how expertly it's produced, is not something "everyone" wants to listen to during afternoon drive. O'Reilly isn't everyone's cup of tea either, but at least his topics are relateable to the entire country. For someone like me, who doesn't have any kids, doesn't even know any kids in high school sports right now, or doesn't really care much for sports in general, SportsWatch is something I wouldn't want to hear on my way home from work.

No insult to the hard work Fred Miller has done, but I think the "heaviest" part of the afternoon commute is better-suited for something "all" audiences can relate to... even if I'm not crazy about O'Reilly, at least I can still relate to the topics. Everyone can (or should be able to) follow along with current events, but not everyone cares about sports.

I'll meet you halfway, though, and say that SportsWatch would do well starting at 5pm, instead of 6. I think most people in U-R are already home from work by 5-ish. (The area seems to have an abundance of state and hospital employees who work a 7-3 or 8-4 shift.) By 5:00, you can safely flip the switch from "mainstream" programming to "niche." A specialized show like SportsWatch won't alienate as many non-sports fans as it would at 3 or 4. And you're right, there's no need for a full hour of news that's dominated by national "filler" content. This would also allow SportsWatch to expand to 2 hours.

But what about the news department? What about the rare days when 2 minutes truly isn't enough for all the local news? Well, since SportsWatch is a local program, there's no requirement to be hard-off at :06:00 past the hour. If you've got a lot of news on a certain day, you can always go an extra minute or two and it won't hurt anyone. Likewise, on a really slow day, you don't have to bother with fluff stories just to fill the local news window.
 
Hi Bob...If WIBX had great numbers for O'Rielly and other dayparts, I would agree with you 100%, but they don't. Local sports is huge in this area, and Sportswatch has more lisenters than O'Riely in spendable demos. Until WIBX makes changes and refines the station, they will not be a factor in the market. The only thing that keeps it going now is it's heritage, but as ratings show, the majority of the audience on that station is 65 and over, even though they do have listeners 55-64. Problem when most people look at a ratings book is they say.."Look 25-64 we are here" When in reality if they broke it down to 1-year age brackets they would see that WIBX is almost a blank in 22-34 and 35-44 listeners.

With that said I from what i know about local sports, they would make more money from 3-5 with Sportswatch. Would they rather have young moms and dads listening who have the money to spend hear ads for businesses, or the few 65 and over listeners who are not spending much of anything, at least in this market. They would probably have more businesses who would sponsor the show too. I think 5-PM for Sportwatch isn't good because many parents and true sports fans would be for the most part driving home and even though they would hear the show, they could not participate on the phones as well as if they were home. I know they could use cell phone, but sometimes that isn't the best way in the car.

As far as when there might be more than 2-minutes of local news...For the most part they report about 5-minutes of local news, but I would say not more than 1% of the time has there been more than 5-minutes of local news. I think if you had the opportunity to monitor the station if you were in the area, with your expertise, might get a different feel and lean a bit more in my thought process.
 
So there I was Friday night in the Mohawk Valley driving on RT 5S exiting at the Ilion exit. I haven't been there in a long, long time. I was just feet away from Dave & Fred Miller as they were starting their broadcast on WIBX of Frankfort/Notre Dame football game. There was a terrible rain storm. Just as I passed the football field on my left lightning struck somewhere near me. The boys on the radio reacted real quick. I just about drove off the road. The last I heard they delayed the game for 30 minutes. Anyway it was good to hear you guys and you do sound very professional.

Keeler could fit in on the morning show on WIBX but he would have to modify his style. He would have to tone down. I doubt he would do that. I never heard him on KISS but did hear him on WRCK a couple times and I thought he did a good morning show (similar to Brother Wease on WCMF)especially for the market size. Maybe his problem was, he was too good.
As far as CBS/Fox. Fox is to news as the WWE is to sports. I was very disappointed when WHAM was forced by Clear Channel to make the switch and I have been told several of WHAM's employee's feel the same way. CBS still at least seems to have some journalistic credibilty left. Maybe not a lot but certainly more than FOX.
If I was running WIBX I would take a long look at Stephanie Miller 9 -noon. She does one of the best radio shows I have ever heard. Very funny-great radio.
 
In a market the size of Utica-Rome, it doesn't make sense to program sports, not matter how good and how local, in PM Drive. The best programming choice for a news-talker in PM Drive is local-regional news, weather and talk, preferably local talk. This is not hard to do, but it requires investing in good people. For companies like Regent, which appears to be stretched thinly, spoending money on bodies is a luxury.

The most likely reason Regent is selling its Watertown properties is to ease the pain of investing a hunka-hunka-chunka cash buying four FM's and an AM in Buffalo from CBS... and because Regent's institutional shareholders aren't happy with the company's share price. There's been a lengthy, well-informed discussion of this matter on the Buffalo board.

Sports on an AM talker is best programmed after 7 p.m. (7-10 p.m. is the ideal time) where it can draw more listeners of all ages; Parents of kids who play high school football, soccer, lacrosse and baseball and the players themselves. After 7 p.m., there's more time to be spent listening and there's more time to be given to the discussion of (local) sports and feature interviews with the local studs and studettes who aspire to grow up to be the next Tom Brady or Sareena Williams.

-9-
 
Element9 said:
In a market the size of Utica-Rome, it doesn't make sense to program sports, not matter how good and how local, in PM Drive. The best programming choice for a news-talker in PM Drive is local-regional news, weather and talk, preferably local talk. This is not hard to do, but it requires investing in good people. For companies like Regent, which appears to be stretched thinly, spoending money on bodies is a luxury.
Click to expand...

THANK YOU. No offense Dave, but at least I'm not the only one who thinks "niche" programming like sports won't work in drive-time. As much as SportsWatch may have improved since Adam the Bull and Dave Richards held the reins, sports just doesn't appeal to "everyone." Sure, you'll bring in the sports fans, but you'll drive away everyone else.

I wouldn't say Regent is stretched as thinly as you might believe. Sure, the stock price sucks, but the company, for the most part, is able to keep the full-time air staff of one station apart from the on-air staff of another. For example, you'll never hear Lite's morning jock voicetracking weekends on the Frog... or the Frog midday jock pulling afternoon drive duty on Oldies 96. The only exception is when Jim Rondenelli does the morning news updates for the FM's. (And that's reasonable; you can't expect the FM's to each hire one person just to read 2 minutes worth of copy a few times every morning.) Meantime, you've got ClearChannel Syracuse with the SAME woman on both Y94 and Nova during middays. If you're going to voicetrack weekday airshifts, at least do it with out-of-town talent who isn't recognizeable from a sister station. (But to the best of my knowledge, Regent isn't yet set up to do WAN voicetracking like ClearChannel is. If they are, it must be pretty recent.)

On the other hand, Regent is much stingier with WIBX than they are with the FM's. They wonder why WIBX struggles, but at the same time, they aren't investing as much into the product. They'd probably do very nicely with a good local talk show in the afternoon, but they won't put up the salary to (a) get someone intelligent and mature enough to execute it well, and (b) keep them from leaving for a bigger market within a year. After all, the revenue generated by the local show has to be able to pay for that host's salary AND still exceed the profit generated by the syndicated show, or else it's not worth going to the trouble. In other words, it ain't gonna happen. But I still think you need something "everyone" can relate to (like O'Reilly) in afternoon drive, rather than something that caters to only one segment of the population (like sports fans). And I'm not just going after sports. It would be just as much of a mistake putting any other "niche" show in that timeslot. Could you imagine if Auto Talk or Kim Komando were on every day at 3pm? They're great shows, but only if you happen to be interested in the subject matter. Drive time is not for niche programming. You need programs that appeal to the largest possible audience.
 
We programmed sports in PM drive at WGR News Radio 55 and drew respectable ratings Men 25-54 with "The Coach," Chuck Dickerson. The major difference is, Buffalo has the Bills and Sabres. Still, PM drive ratings wilted in the Summer book. There's a big difference when you have two pro franchises to talk about.

Posters who advocate broad-based issues talk in PM drive in a market like Utica-Rome make good points. Not sure I'd run O'Reilly in PM drive however, especially since his show runs live from noon to 2 p.m. Hannity might be (slightly) better because he airs live 3-6 and there's a distinct advantage in that, especially when events dictate.

Of course, you could go totally contrarian and run Randi Rhodes. Believe me, she'd get plenty of attention, which is exactly what you want to do when you program talk. Love her or hate her, one thing's certain, listeners know who it is they love or hate and that draws them to the radio station. Apathy and ambivalence are not what you're aiming for when you do news-talk. The meek may inherit the earth, but in news-talk, they won't draw listeners.

One thing is absolute: The breaks should be live and local, including plenty of time, temp, weather, traffic, closings and cancellations and that all important imaging.
 
Is the shake-up over? Is it Meaningless? Has Ed won the battle? Is Regent the true winner? Is Keeler a "has-been non-factor" as some propose (or as, one person insists)? Is WOUR better as Classic Rock WOUR, or is it Rock 107 with a better name? Does WXUR stay Oldiez or pick up WTLB's format, which actually scored good ratings? Does it really matter? Sorry, I was reading the other thread...it's juicy!
 
Even in the Rome area, which is definitely in the market boundaries, WXUR sounds kinda muddy, both on my own car radio and some others I've spoken with. Unless these supposedly-promised upgrades are made pronto, Keeler's gonna lose some people. If the signal's crappy, how long do you put up with it? How many times do you check back to see if it's fixed before you find a new favorite station?

Kinda sounds like Keeler made this move in a pretty big hurry. First the paper says November 1, then they actually make the move a week or two earlier than that. He should have had a "just in case" plan ready for this. Granted, I'm kinda surprised there wasn't a deal to keep Keeler on Kiss under Roser's ownership (especially since Kiss is now jockless in the morning), but when there's a sale, nothing can be taken for granted. Keeler should know this. Then again, what other options did he have besides WXUR? Just a shame he has to jump ship from a station with 2 decent signals, to one with a mediocre signal right in the middle of the fall book. The one that's "more important" than the spring book. Will his advertisers understand enough to be sympathetic when they see those numbers? It may be a tough start to 2008 for Keeler.

Oh, and we should all thank Ed "Eastlan" Levine for the fact that we'll definitely NEVER see public Arbitron numbers for U-R ever again. (As if there were any doubt when he had only 3 stations, you can completely forget it now.)
 
Hi Bob...Very well said. Not exactly sure what Keeler might do, and how fast sound and signal quality upgrades will come to WXUR, if they do, however, it would seem to me that you can never count Keeler down and out. And as long as his former employer is still in the market, it always makes the situation that more interesting. I know it keeps me guessing a lot.
 
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