Any areas of the US that will LOSE OTA reception as a result of DTV?

[bpatrick]

When's the last time the table of TV markets changed? This board has at times been littered with calls to make New Hampshire its own market or to merge St. Joseph into the Kansas City market or things of that nature. Trust me, even if those four channels do become separate affiliates as opposed to satellites, they will not become their own market.

I don't know, when was the last time a new TV market was created? What were the circumstances?

Fort Walton and Destin get Mobile and Panama City network affiliates on cable. From what I've seen, the Panama City stations cover more news in Fort Walton and Destin than the Mobile stations do, even though they are officially in the Mobile DMA. Could the DTV transition give one (or more) of the Panama City stations a "back door" to move Fort Walton from the Mobile market to the Panama City market by buying one of the underutilized stations to simulcast a Panama City affiliate, or would the networks and FCC block that?

In the end, I understand that cable/satellite penetration in Fort Walton is over 95% (I think I read 98%), so I guess it's just never been worth anyones money to create a local OTA TV station there. I've just never been able to understand why they put 4 full power TV stations in Fort Walton. None of these stations are capable of covering more than 20% of the Mobile/Pensacola/Fort Walton DMA due to air traffic restrictions on tower height and locations. There have been rumblings in the past about moving two of these stations to an area that would cover Fort Walton and Panama City, but not Mobile and Pensacola. Neither of those deals panned out. I don't know why.

Panama City lacks its own CBS affiliate; Dothan, its own NBC. Why can't
a station in those markets do what WNKY Bowling Green, KY, did? It was
already NBC on 40-1, and it added CBS on 40-2, and now people in that
area don't have to depend on Louisville or Nashville for CBS. This way,
Panama City viewers wouldn't need the Dothan CBS affiliate, and Dothan
viewers wouldn't need the Montgomery NBC affiliate.

 

[Poledo]

Panama City lacks its own CBS affiliate; Dothan, its own NBC. Why can't
a station in those markets do what WNKY Bowling Green, KY, did? It was
already NBC on 40-1, and it added CBS on 40-2, and now people in that
area don't have to depend on Louisville or Nashville for CBS. This way,
Panama City viewers wouldn't need the Dothan CBS affiliate, and Dothan
viewers wouldn't need the Montgomery NBC affiliate.

Dothan used to get 2 Montgomery stations when WRJM was UPN. Now WTVY has MyNet and CW on sub channels, so I assume WRJM lost cable and satellite coverage in the Dothan market. Dothan's always been kinda weird, they only have one "strong" station, WTVY, which covers Dothan, Panama City, and part of Gerogia. They have an ABC affiliate in WDHN, and a Fox affiliate but they only cover a fraction of the area WTVY covers. Then they have 2 APTV affiliates on the edges of the market.

When I had family in Ozark (just north of Dothan) they preferred to watch news on WSFA from Montgomery, which, along with WAKA, had an excellent over the air signals there. For some reason we always watched WTVM from Columbus, GA for ABC programming and never watched the local channel WDHN.

 

[mleach]

Well that's just a technicality. I mean the independent cities and parishes function like counties and are given representation like counties.

Also in Virginia, their cities are not part of a "metro area". Well both the Census and Neilsen people think they are but the people who run those cities don't. Actually one can sit all day and watch a station say in Richmond or Hampton Roads and never hear the word "metro" used like "Metro Richmond" or "Metro Hampton Roads". In Virginia, "metro" pretty much means Northern Virginia and thats about it.
sorry to go off topic but Virginia is a rather odd state, oops..commonwealth.

 

[fortmill]

Well that's just a technicality. I mean the independent cities and parishes function like counties and are given representation like counties.

Also in Virginia, their cities are not part of a "metro area". Well both the Census and Neilsen people think they are but the people who run those cities don't. Actually one can sit all day and watch a station say in Richmond or Hampton Roads and never hear the word "metro" used like "Metro Richmond" or "Metro Hampton Roads". In Virginia, "metro" pretty much means Northern Virginia and thats about it.
sorry to go off topic but Virginia is a rather odd state, oops..commonwealth.

Absolutely not true---I was born and raised in VA and I can tell you the term "Metro Richmond" has for many years been in wide use. True, the City of Richmond is independent of all surrounding counties and by state law (a stupid, racist law, I might add) is not allowed to annex surrounding areas, but Richmond and six or seven area counties, as well as the independent cities of Petersburg, Hopewell, and Colonial Heights are referred to as Metro Richmond (with a population of well over a million). Two suburban counties, Henrico and Chesterfield, each have populations far exceeding the city of Richmond, yet the vast majority of each county has Richmond addresses--rather strange for an area that you say does not consider itself a metro area. Regarding the 'Hampton Roads" area, you have disputed your own contention that they don't consider themselves to be a metro area---the seven major independent cities which make up most of the metro area (Norfolk, Virginia Beach, Portsmouth, Chesapeake, Suffolk, Hampton, and Newport News) have long referred to themselves as the Hampton Roads Metropolitan area---younger people offen refer to their area simply as the Seven Cities.

 

[bk77]

Well that's just a technicality. I mean the independent cities and parishes function like counties and are given representation like counties.

Also in Virginia, their cities are not part of a "metro area". Well both the Census and Neilsen people think they are but the people who run those cities don't. Actually one can sit all day and watch a station say in Richmond or Hampton Roads and never hear the word "metro" used like "Metro Richmond" or "Metro Hampton Roads". In Virginia, "metro" pretty much means Northern Virginia and thats about it.
sorry to go off topic but Virginia is a rather odd state, oops..commonwealth.

Absolutely not true---I was born and raised in VA and I can tell you the term "Metro Richmond" has for many years been in wide use. True, the City of Richmond is independent of all surrounding counties and by state law (a stupid, racist law, I might add) is not allowed to annex surrounding areas, but Richmond and six or seven area counties, as well as the independent cities of Petersburg, Hopewell, and Colonial Heights are referred to as Metro Richmond (with a population of well over a million). Two suburban counties, Henrico and Chesterfield, each have populations far exceeding the city of Richmond, yet the vast majority of each county has Richmond addresses--rather strange for an area that you say does not consider itself a metro area. Regarding the 'Hampton Roads" area, you have disputed your own contention that they don't consider themselves to be a metro area---the seven major independent cities which make up most of the metro area (Norfolk, Virginia Beach, Portsmouth, Chesapeake, Suffolk, Hampton, and Newport News) have long referred to themselves as the Hampton Roads Metropolitan area---younger people offen refer to their area simply as the Seven Cities.

For years Roanoke, VA's K-92 FM radio would call their weather and they even had a jingle for it "..Metro Roanoke Weather" plus Charlottesville's WVIR back in their Dateline News days, they too would use that word quite often in their news and come to think of it, I think the Richmond Chamber of Commerce calls themselves the "Metro Richmond" Chamber of Commerce.

However what Virginia does lack is a "metro" area that stands out to the point where it is known on a nationwide basis the same way Raleigh or Charlotte is for North Carolina. Maybe its because of a lack of a pro-sports team or perhaps its the fact that that the airports in both Richmond and Hampton roads do NOT offer NONSTOP coast to coast flights even though many airlines do the same for Charlotte and Raleigh plus I think Norfolk at one time turned down some airline ( I think it was American Airlines ) many years ago who wanted to use their airport as a hub instead they went to North Carolina instead.

I was in Phoenix last year and it was amazing ( and sad too ) at the number of people I met who really believed that Virginia Beach was in North Carolina or that Richmond is a "Northern Suberb" of Raleigh. Yeah, its laughable but then again I remember watching an old episode of Password on GSN a few years back. Burt Convy was the host while Dionne Warwick and I think Vicki Lawrence were the stars. The Password was "Virginia", however neither Warwick, Lawrence, or even Convy much less the contestants could think of a name of a city in Virginia !!!!

Had the password been "North Dakota", "Montana" or even "West Virginia" I can see, but "Virginia" ???

 

[landtuna]

Interesting comments on VA. I lived in Richmond and adjoining Hanover County in the 70's and in the NYC metro area before that and saw similar characteristics in both.

NYC residents don't significantly acknowledge the existance of anywhere west of the Hudson River or south of the New Jersey shore except for "NY South" - Florida. If it doesn't happen in one of the city's boroughs it simply doesn't exist.

Much the same attitude prevailed in the Richmond of the 70's. People in both places seemed to have always lived there and weren't interested in anywhere else. There was a sense of history in Richmond that I equated with Rome, that being it was the only important place in the world. My wife's family had lived in Richmond and Western VA for generations and with only one exception they were all still within dozens of miles of where they were born. My wife and one of her uncle's were the only family members to have ever lived elsewhere.

For those of us raised away from these two areas they are of limited interest but Richmond much more limited than NYC. Richmond had it's moment in history during the Civil War but not much has happened since. Not through lack of trying though. While I lived there a plane from Richmond's Byrd Field was hijacked and flown to Bermuda. The city council tried to rename Byrd Field Richmond International Airport as a result of that incident - it didn't fly (pun intended). Young co-workers of mine would always say "readin' writin' and the road to Richmond" meaning it was the center of commerce and the logical place to go start a career. That quickly changed as Raleigh and the Research Triangle outgrew Richmond in a matter of a few years and, once again, Richmond fell into obsecurity.

In the USA today I can't really find fault with those people who don't recognize VA, or Richmond. Today it is better known for Hanover tomatoes and sweet corn than anything of consequence. Well, except the ongoing argument with North Carolina over who "owns" Brunswick Stew.

 

[dhett]

I don't know of many people anywhere in the world that are too geographically savvy. In Phoenix, people are amazed when I tell them I grew up in New York because I don't have a New Yawk accent. I grew up in western New York. Conversely, in New York, and most other places for that matter, people are amazed when I tell them that it snows in most of Arizona in the winter and that it's not all desert.

As for new Nielsen markets, I'm surprised that they haven't changed much in the past 50 years, especially with the migration of people south and west. Had we had the population distribution in 1950 that we have today, I would bet that Fort Walton would have its own DMA, and Zanesville OH would not. High-growth areas such as Florida, Texas and Arizona seem to get the short shrift sometimes.

And finally, back to the original topic: I'm sure there are some places that will lose OTA reception. How it will be handled will depend on the local population. Requiring satellite services to carry local channels makes OTA reception less important in those areas, and it seems that no matter how poor people are, they always seem to manage to come up with enough money for television, be it cable or satellite, so I wouldn't count on a lot of new OTA stations. Utah has been the exception when it comes to OTA coverage.

 

[oldiesfan6479]

The city council tried to rename Byrd Field Richmond International Airport as a result of that incident...

I guess they did later on as that is the current name for RIC.

Dumped Admirable Byrd (and his deep-fried groat clusters? )
off in the lost baggage office, so to speak.

 

[HoustonListener]

Areas north of Houston impacted by move of digital Conroe, Texas TV

I live in Houston but I have a small place in Onalaska, Texas on Lake Livingston -- about 90 miles north of Houston and 100 plus miles north of the main Houston TV towers near Missouri City, Texas southwest of Houston. Onalaska, Texas is in Polk County and considered part of the Houston TV market. However, the only two stations that are reliably received by me in Onalaska, Texas via antenna are Channel 49 KPXB (ION) and channel 55 KTBU (independent) both licensed to Conroe, Texas, which is about 40 miles north of Houston and about 50 miles from Onalaska, Texas. The problem is that both stations are broadcasting in digital from transmitters in Missouri City, Texas (the main antenna farm for Houston) with their digital channel -- instead of from the Montgomery County, Texas (30-40 miles north of Houston) transmitters used for the analog boradcasts. I am not sure that their digital broadcasts are even covering their city of license, Conroe, Texas, very well. the digital service for KPXB and KTBU has the transmitters in Missouri city located about 60 miles from the Conroe, Texas city of license. Broadcast TV will be almost unwatchable in Onalaska, Texas after the transition (although I am holding out hope that KBTX Channel 3 in Bryan might come in when it increases its digital power at transition). This isn't directly related to the strength of the digital signal but the fact that the FCC is letting two stations move their digital transmitters to allow KPXB and KTBU to broadcast from transmitters almost 60 miles from their city of license, Conroe. (note--these are all road miles so air miles may be a bit shorter but that is still a big distance from transmitter to city of license, and takes away the signal to the north of Conroe for sure).

Well, I have satellite TV out there so that is how I get the local channels from Houston, so I won't be directly affected, but the TV in the bedroom still on an antenna will be useless. (although getting just ION 49 and the independent station 55 that shows a lot of informericals is not much anyway).

There are low powered stations in Huntsville, Texas (30 miles away) and Livingston, Texas (13 miles away) but the do not come in in Onalaska.

 

[KML0224]

The distance calculator at indo.com places Onalaska and Missouri City as 89 miles apart from one another. Just for the asking, do you get any signals from areas like Tyler, Lufkin or Nacogdoches?

 

[HoustonListener]

In Onalaska, Texas, occassionally Channel 9 KTRE from Lukin/Nachodoghes comes in, but more often than not there isn't even a picture, not just that it is a staticly picture. It is rare to get watchable reception on that channel, at least at my place. I don't know if the digital transition will change in, but I looked up and saw that KTRE is broadcasting digitally on lower power under STA that does not reach very far. Onalaska is at the edge of the contour, anyway, and the thick pine trees in the area interfere with reception. Lufkin is about 50 miles from Onalaska driving (Again, might be closer air miles) but the transmitter is located north of Lufkin further from Onalaska. KTRE is operated by KLTV in Tyler, anyway.

I will have to get a converter box and see if anything comes in digitally in Onalaska.

None of the TV stations from Tyler come in (Tyler is quite a bit north). KTRE is operated or co-operated by KLTV in Tyler, anyway.

 

[HoustonListener]

Sorry if I keep posting here and this is getting redundant, but I did a check for Onalaska, Texas (zip 77360) and it predicts that there are no digital TV stations serving the area, although it shows KTBU and KPXB in Conroe as provding analog service (which do serve the area fairly well with signal if not with programming), a few low power stations from Livingston and Hunstville (none of which I can really get in Onalaska) and KBTX in Bryan/College Station (which comes in very poorly alalog) (Note that Antennaweb incorrectly lists KBTZ as licensed to Waco, Texas when it is licensed to either Bryan or College Station.

 

[KML0224]

OK. I've never been in Texas. I can at least get the big six here in central Connecticut, with Hartford's PBS digital coming on this summer. I have to rely on their station from Norwich for now (to the southeast in New London County).

 

[dhett]

Sorry if I keep posting here and this is getting redundant, but I did a check for Onalaska, Texas (zip 77360) and it predicts that there are no digital TV stations serving the area, although it shows KTBU and KPXB in Conroe as provding analog service (which do serve the area fairly well with signal if not with programming), a few low power stations from Livingston and Hunstville (none of which I can really get in Onalaska) and KBTX in Bryan/College Station (which comes in very poorly alalog) (Note that Antennaweb incorrectly lists KBTZ as licensed to Waco, Texas when it is licensed to either Bryan or College Station.

You should get KBTX and KTRE after transition is complete (can't help you with KBTZ - that's in Butte, Montana, and might be out of range ). KYTX just stops short of your area, but you might still be able to get it. Don't count on KYLE or KAMU; both stop short of Huntsville.

As for the Houston stations, you might be in luck. The strongest stations are predicted to reach the south end of your lake, and most of them reach at least halfway between Cleveland and Livingston, and almost reach Huntsville. I'd bet they'll reach you too with a good antenna. Remember that DTV means no static. If you can get the station without dropouts, it'll be as clear as if you were 5 miles from the towers.

When finished, Huntsville's KHTX-LD should reach Livingston, so you should have a signal there, although if it's a KBTX translator, it'll have redundant signals since you should also get KBTX. None of the Livingston stations have LP DTV applications yet, although I'm surprised you don't get the analog stations; you should be within range.

 

[vibe]

Has anyone done some sort of rough map to see what areas will lose OTA reception entirely? In FLA there are CBS, NBC, FOX and PBS affliliates in Tampa and Ft. Myers about 130 mi apart. I can't see digital penetrating the center of that cone in which (roughly calculated) would be in south central Sarasota with either of the stations. At least Sarasota has an ABC affiliate.
As the price of energy spirals upwards (at a time where a nonnecessity like cable is still prevalent) a lot of people are in for a rude surprise if they hope to go to OTA.

 

[Markxxx]

I lived in SW Florida and one thing I noticed, when I'd travel from Fort Meyers to West Palm Beach was the huge number of very tall antennas on farms and communities and trailer parks. It was very common in Fort Meyers before cable took hold in the early 80s to have high antennas pointed toward Miami and Tampa Bay.

I think the problem with estimating this again is the number of stations using lower power, or having to use directional transmitters to protect stations. I agree that some people will be in for a surprise.

I remember when I lived in southern Maryland (30 miles south of DC) in the summer I could pull in Richmond VHFs and Philly's UHFs (Why I got Philly's UHFs and not their VHFs I don't know but I did).

Hopefully most places will have a very basic tier of OTA stations. In Chicago Comcast has a tier, (It was $21.00 last I checked) for just the OTA stations, they call it the reception tier and you get OTA and like TBS, MSNBC and of course the shopping channels and community channels too

 

[XRQKFM]

In the Antelope Valley north of Los Angeles, we will go from 15 plus watchable stations to zero after Feb 09. Our only free TV will be from Equity on G10 on our KU satellite, long live free TV!

Steve
www.radiobrandy.com

 

[dhett]

Has anyone done some sort of rough map to see what areas will lose OTA reception entirely? In FLA there are CBS, NBC, FOX and PBS affliliates in Tampa and Ft. Myers about 130 mi apart. I can't see digital penetrating the center of that cone in which (roughly calculated) would be in south central Sarasota with either of the stations. At least Sarasota has an ABC affiliate.
As the price of energy spirals upwards (at a time where a nonnecessity like cable is still prevalent) a lot of people are in for a rude surprise if they hope to go to OTA.

I think you're looking at pre-transition facilities. Post-transition facilities should cover the area, but judge for yourself:

Tampa/St. Pete:

WEDU
WFLA
WTSP
WTVT
WUSF
WCLF
WFTS
WMOR
WTTA
WWSB
WTOG
WFTT
WVEA
WXPX

Fort Myers/Naples:

WINK
WBBH
WZVN
WGCU
WFTX
WXCW

 

[dhett]

In the Antelope Valley north of Los Angeles, we will go from 15 plus watchable stations to zero after Feb 09. Our only free TV will be from Equity on G10 on our KU satellite, long live free TV!

Steve
www.radiobrandy.com

Most of the major stations are supposed to reach at least to Hwy. 58 post-transition.

 

[vibe]

Re the post transition maps for the Ft Myers-Sarasota area, they seem very optimistic. I hope that's the case for people who rely on OTA.
Based on those maps, one could put in a "kick ass" antenna system and get a lot of digitals, the "payback" coming in 1 year or less.
Let's hope because we seem to have gotten away from "free tv.