Arcade Fire and Indie music

[Buckethead]

In 2004 a radio station called Indie 103.1 broke The Arcade Fire in a big way.

Eventually the rest of the modern rock format started catching on. It took KROQ 6 months
before they started giving some spins.

in 2011 Arcade Fire are headlining a Coachella festival that sold out in record time
and last night Arcade Fire won the Best Album Grammy over Gaga, Eminem etc.

Who still wants to say that Indie 103.1 has had no impact.

I think the seeds they sewed are coming to fruition. Maybe it is time to give Indie a signal.

 

[RBB05]

In 2004 a radio station called Indie 103.1 broke The Arcade Fire in a big way.

Eventually the rest of the modern rock format started catching on. It took KROQ 6 months
before they started giving some spins.

in 2011 Arcade Fire are headlining a Coachella festival that sold out in record time
and last night Arcade Fire won the Best Album Grammy over Gaga, Eminem etc.

Who still wants to say that Indie 103.1 has had no impact.

I think the seeds they sewed are coming to fruition. Maybe it is time to give Indie a signal.

There are a few bands that hit Indie before they hit elsewhere...Indie was the first one in LA to play Kings of Leon and Airborne Toxic Event. Unfortunately it takes people with bold intestinal fortitude to take a risk on a station like Indie and those people do not exist in LA.

 

[Macker]

They probably had a little to do with it, but it was probably just the collectiveness of all the different stations, magazines, forums, etc. Also, for every band that makes it, there's dozens that don't. I used to subscribe to CMJ New Music magazine for 10+ years and every month, they'd send a cd of 20+ tracks of new, indie, alternative bands that hadn't made it yet. I looked back at the cd's recently (I have over 100, spanning 10yrs), and really the only bands that made it are kings of leon, airborne toxic event, muse, and maybe 1 or 2 others.

 

[davideduardo]

I think the seeds they sewed are coming to fruition. Maybe it is time to give Indie a signal.

Let's see... the industry that looses almost as much money as the national debt collectively gives an award to a group that sold vastly fewer CDs/downloads than other nominees. The award winning group was first played on a small LA area station. Conclusion: that station needs to come back.

This is like the Oscars. I have found for decades that a significant number of movies that win awards for various things are movies I find tedious, annoying or lacking interest while ones I really like as entertainment did not even get nominations because they were perhaps not deep enough.

So using awards as the basis for determining what might be successful is hardly a good method. I'll bet on a station that plays Gaga, not Arcade Fire.

Indie did badly in the diary. But it did horribly in the PPM before going away. A format that can't get a 1 share in PPM can't survive. And it is unlikely that it could get even to a one share level, based on how it ended life in PPM.

 

[musicfan101]

I think the seeds they sewed are coming to fruition. Maybe it is time to give Indie a signal.

Let's see... the industry that looses almost as much money as the national debt collectively gives an award to a group that sold vastly fewer CDs/downloads than other nominees. The award winning group was first played on a small LA area station. Conclusion: that station needs to come back.

This is like the Oscars. I have found for decades that a significant number of movies that win awards for various things are movies I find tedious, annoying or lacking interest while ones I really like as entertainment did not even get nominations because they were perhaps not deep enough.

So using awards as the basis for determining what might be successful is hardly a good method. I'll bet on a station that plays Gaga, not Arcade Fire.

Indie did badly in the diary. But it did horribly in the PPM before going away. A format that can't get a 1 share in PPM can't survive. And it is unlikely that it could get even to a one share level, based on how it ended life in PPM.

It's hard to judge a station that was pulled only a few months after the PPM came out...I mean come on all of us on this board are usually saying how we need to give The Sound another year to succeed before they should be pulled off the air. I get it, a bunch of out of industry blowhards hated Indie because they were jealous that a great station like it didn't exist back in their day... :

 

[radiojomo]

No need for a New Alternative Station entirely, but what about just adding more current Alternative/Indie tracks to KROQ or 98-7?
That's all it takes.

 

[ChannelFlipper]

I think the seeds they sewed are coming to fruition. Maybe it is time to give Indie a signal.

Let's see... the industry that looses almost as much money as the national debt collectively gives an award to a group that sold vastly fewer CDs/downloads than other nominees. The award winning group was first played on a small LA area station. Conclusion: that station needs to come back.

This is like the Oscars. I have found for decades that a significant number of movies that win awards for various things are movies I find tedious, annoying or lacking interest while ones I really like as entertainment did not even get nominations because they were perhaps not deep enough.

So using awards as the basis for determining what might be successful is hardly a good method. I'll bet on a station that plays Gaga, not Arcade Fire.

Indie did badly in the diary. But it did horribly in the PPM before going away. A format that can't get a 1 share in PPM can't survive. And it is unlikely that it could get even to a one share level, based on how it ended life in PPM.

It's hard to judge a station that was pulled only a few months after the PPM came out...I mean come on all of us on this board are usually saying how we need to give The Sound another year to succeed before they should be pulled off the air. I get it, a bunch of out of industry blowhards hated Indie because they were jealous that a great station like it didn't exist back in their day... :

This response is so wrong on so many levels. David has demonstrated aptly on so many occasions why Indie did not/would not work in the PPM world, and I haven't heard anyone, myself included say "give the Sound one more year", and I probably listen to the station as much as anybody on the board. And there is a lot of negative things to say about "industry blowhards", but being "jealous" of a cool station and not having one of their own is not one of them. They are motivated by one thing and one thing only - ratings. Ratings in turn generate sales, which is the lifeblood of any business.

I can tell you right now that if I owned a station, I could put on the best and most coolest format ever. It would be awesome. And yet, at the same time, there is no way in hell that I would put on this "coolest station ever" format on my station, because I would be most concerned with the return on my hard-earned investment, not having the best station ever. It's entirely conceivable the format on my station is one I might not even like. Every other radio owner and executive is like that too. Money talks, cool walks. Just the way it is. The fact that Indie was on even more than a year should be considered a minor miracle. It will not return because nobody builds business plans around miracles of any kind.

 

[Buckethead]

David,

The award isn't for most albums sold.

Secondly, selling out Coachella in record time is a financial accomplishment as well.
My point is that the times have changed and the popularity and financial worthiness of the bands that Indie was playing
have become more bankable.

So, while Indie was obviously way ahead of the curve and did indeed accomplish miracles for 5 years, the basis of what they were doing
is a more bankable format concept now.

A lot more bankable than say...PLAYLIST 92.7.

If you're looking to see where markets are moving then smart money will look at trends like these.

 

[MarcR]

David,

The award isn't for most albums sold.

In David's universe, artistry as a criterion is soley a concern of elitists. It doesn't matter that Eminem's album was, artistically, a piece of crap, but just that he sold the most CDs and downloads. And incidentally, Arcade Fire, despite their status as an indie label aritist, still managed to sell 400,00 copies of their album before the date of the Grammys.

 

[MarcR]

Correction: Eminem's album was not exactly a "piece of crap". I apologize for the hyperbole.

 

[davideduardo]

The award isn't for most albums sold.

I realize that. But when we compare what Arcade Fire has achieved with what Lady Gaga has done for the music industry, it is nearly criminal not to give her the award. Right down to her entrance at the Grammy event, she has put a good amount of "entertaining" back into entertainment and the industry should encourage that.

Secondly, selling out Coachella in record time is a financial accomplishment as well.

There are about 150 bands on 3 stages at Coachella. The three day event is not about one single group, but the collective experience. The event has been selling out sooner and sooner every year, even though they made it almost impossible to just go for a singe day and the price continues to rise.

My point is that the times have changed and the popularity and financial worthiness of the bands that Indie was playing have become more bankable.

That does not change the fact that Indie lost over 2/3 of it's share level when PPM arrived, and only about 2 years ago the station was in the 0.3 share range.

A lot more bankable than say...PLAYLIST 92.7.

Playlist has a very inferior Orange County signal which was shoehorned in when the station moved from Avalon. The other two signals on Playlist are not even located in the LA MSA. KDLD broadcasts from the Baldwin Hills, right in the middle of LA and its simulcast partner does much better in OC than the Playlist operation.

If you're looking to see where markets are moving then smart money will look at trends like these.

We are going to see the new CA Census data this month. It's quite probable that, like the other states released to date, that the ACS Hispanic population estimates up to 2009 were off 15% to 20%, and LA may actually be 45% to 46% Hispanic... which will mean Arbitron will sample in that proportion starting October. That reduces the possible impact of the Indie concept even further.

The fact is that the PPM showed Indie listeners were putting much more time in the diaries than the reality of the PPM now shows.

 

[davideduardo]

It's hard to judge a station that was pulled only a few months after the PPM came out

But Indie existed for a considerable time prior to the PPM. And Indie was pulled, IIRC, in February two years ago, which means there had been 8 books in PPM prior to the switch... much more than needed to see how the format behaved in PPM, which was about 0.3 in 12+ and 0.4 in 25-54. And that's not enough to sustain a station, even projected onto a better signal.

...I mean come on all of us on this board are usually saying how we need to give The Sound another year to succeed before they should be pulled off the air.

And that's just some people's opinion, although the main difference is that The Sound was a PPM startup, with no past history while Indie was established and not a new format or station.

Bonneville certainly believed the PPM after a few months, and started adapting the original format... which of course has share levels five or six times higher than Indie did in PPM.

I get it, a bunch of out of industry blowhards hated Indie because they were jealous that a great station like it didn't exist back in their day...

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

Indie was not a great station or it would have survived. It was weak in the diary survey, and ranked 47th in its 6th month into PPM... tied with XEWW from Tijuana... with half the share of the KOST internet stream, in fact. Yes, it had some loyal fans... but not enough of them.

 

[RBB05]

No need for a New Alternative Station entirely, but what about just adding more current Alternative/Indie tracks to KROQ or 98-7?
That's all it takes.

Difference is KROQ will not play a band until it has been proven elsewhere...."new KROQ music" was generally already tried and tested on other stations. If it has commercial stones, KROQ is the place. Indie would break music and 6 months later KROQ would get it and squeeze the artists out of ever doing anything with Indie again. Still not getting the alternaticve side of 98.7....I know they say they are....but playing stuff the overly commercialized KROQ dismissed 6 months ago does not feel "alternative."

 

[RBB05]

I think the seeds they sewed are coming to fruition. Maybe it is time to give Indie a signal.

Let's see... the industry that looses almost as much money as the national debt collectively gives an award to a group that sold vastly fewer CDs/downloads than other nominees. The award winning group was first played on a small LA area station. Conclusion: that station needs to come back.

This is like the Oscars. I have found for decades that a significant number of movies that win awards for various things are movies I find tedious, annoying or lacking interest while ones I really like as entertainment did not even get nominations because they were perhaps not deep enough.

So using awards as the basis for determining what might be successful is hardly a good method. I'll bet on a station that plays Gaga, not Arcade Fire.

Indie did badly in the diary. But it did horribly in the PPM before going away. A format that can't get a 1 share in PPM can't survive. And it is unlikely that it could get even to a one share level, based on how it ended life in PPM.

And there are about 8 stations in LA who play Gaga, so that is covered and no need for another. Over the last year, there are more stations playing Arcade Fire....covered....so who is playing the "next Arcade fire"? Who is discovering the new? The answer is no one in LA.

 

[RBB05]

The award isn't for most albums sold.

I realize that. But when we compare what Arcade Fire has achieved with what Lady Gaga has done for the music industry, it is nearly criminal not to give her the award. Right down to her entrance at the Grammy event, she has put a good amount of "entertaining" back into entertainment and the industry should encourage that.

Secondly, selling out Coachella in record time is a financial accomplishment as well.

There are about 150 bands on 3 stages at Coachella. The three day event is not about one single group, but the collective experience. The event has been selling out sooner and sooner every year, even though they made it almost impossible to just go for a singe day and the price continues to rise.

My point is that the times have changed and the popularity and financial worthiness of the bands that Indie was playing have become more bankable.

That does not change the fact that Indie lost over 2/3 of it's share level when PPM arrived, and only about 2 years ago the station was in the 0.3 share range.

A lot more bankable than say...PLAYLIST 92.7.

Playlist has a very inferior Orange County signal which was shoehorned in when the station moved from Avalon. The other two signals on Playlist are not even located in the LA MSA. KDLD broadcasts from the Baldwin Hills, right in the middle of LA and its simulcast partner does much better in OC than the Playlist operation.

If you're looking to see where markets are moving then smart money will look at trends like these.

We are going to see the new CA Census data this month. It's quite probable that, like the other states released to date, that the ACS Hispanic population estimates up to 2009 were off 15% to 20%, and LA may actually be 45% to 46% Hispanic... which will mean Arbitron will sample in that proportion starting October. That reduces the possible impact of the Indie concept even further.

The fact is that the PPM showed Indie listeners were putting much more time in the diaries than the reality of the PPM now shows.

The fact that we live in a market in LA and have no station that breaks new bands or new music seems sad. I get the business end of it as well as anyone....it just does not speak well to the artistry of radio in LA.

 

[davideduardo]

In David's universe, artistry as a criterion is soley a concern of elitists.

I'd remind you that both Shakespeare and Dickens were reviled by the elite and were as "blue collar" in appeal as Garth Brooks or Taylor Swift. Monet, Sissley, Pissaro and the rest were reviled by the "art elite" in their time, too.

So popular taste is more likely to set trends than narrow undercurrents. "Good" is more likely to be based on broad acceptance than on the technical skills of the artists, whether these be musicians, artists, actors or writers. Were it talent and skill alone, we'd be seeing big sellouts at the largest venues for jazz and blues artists...

 

[davideduardo]

The fact that we live in a market in LA and have no station that breaks new bands or new music seems sad. I get the business end of it as well as anyone....it just does not speak well to the artistry of radio in LA.

Radio is a business, not a gallery that hangs undiscovered artists. If a station owner discovers that playing a few newer bands and songs enhances their ratings, they will do it. But if they find that going over the definition of "a few" hurts ratings, they know that such a practice endangers the whole station, the future of the format and the jobs of all the staff members.

We've found over the years that deep playlists and too much new, unfamiliar music will hurt a station, some times very badly. And in the US, the ability of a station to survive and continue is based on getting an audience that a group of advertisers wants to reach, not on art.

When radio is state controlled and listeners pay a license fee for every radio, programming can be less driven by what listeners want and more by what the station bureaucrats think the listeners need. Or when a government controls content, percentage of artists and rotations, you get lots of songs that otherwise would not be played.

 

[Buckethead]

David,

I wish you'd let somebody else have an opinion about this topic. You've pretty much shut down any idea that doesn't correlate to your notion that if it's artistic, and made by English speaking bands then there must not be a market for it in LA.

You may actually benefit from a currently Spanish language format flipping to a Alt/Indie format.

 

[davideduardo]

And there are about 8 stations in LA who play Gaga, so that is covered and no need for another. Over the last year, there are more stations playing Arcade Fire....covered....so who is playing the "next Arcade fire"? Who is discovering the new? The answer is no one in LA.

You are missing my point which is that Gaga, based on her CD and her impact on music sales, is more deserving of a Grammy than Arcade Fire. It's even been written that Gaga is in part responsible for a greater interest in music by the younger demos and that translates into consumption of more downloads and listening to current music.

Radio is in the business of selling ads. Radio is not in the business of selling recorded music.

Many radio stations of the most successful type are based entirely or almost entirely on non-current hits and lots of non-current artists: Jack, Kost, The Wave, K-earth, K-Love, Recuerdo, José, KLOS, etc.

In fact, on an average of the last 3 books, of the top 10 stations in LA in 25-54, only 3, KIIS, AMP and KLAX are current based, with KROQ being a bit less current based but still active with currents. The rest which are KOST, KRTH, KCBS, KLVE, and KHHT/KBIG (tied for 10th) are all or predominiantly gold based formats that play few currents. 15.4 shares go to current or current leaning stations, while 24.5 shares go to gold based stations.

So, yes, we have the right number of stations playing Gaga or any other form of currents... because the bulk of the audience in the sales demos gravitates to familiar, established music, not unfamiliar new music.

 

[Buckethead]

I'm going to stop reading at the first sentence.
Clearly you feel that selling a lot of records is what deserves a Grammy, but fortunately the Recording Academy doesn't agree with you.