Are Part 15 stations exempt of royaltys

[Tom Wells]

I need to see some documentation to prove that
all artists, not just the "biggies", get royalties.

Have you ever been to BMI or ASCAP? They have the documentation. They spend a lot of time and money to make sure their information is correct, and that the money gets to the right people. And while just about every record label has been sued for royalties, it's rare that the PROs get sued. Of course, we're talking about two different royalties. Sales vs. airplay. But airplay is easily documented, and the PROs are experts at it. They see themselves as the bankers, the most trusted people in the music business, and they act the part. The artists and writers trust them. But no one trusts the labels.

The royalties we're discussing here are songwriter royalties, not the RIAA artist & label proposal. That whole proposal is filled with problems, and terrestrial radio is smart to fight it. Part 15s are exempt because they aren't digital, and are covered for the same reason terrestrial radio is exempt.

OK, so do ASCAP and BMI issue reports to each station, showing that if you were, let's say a novelty format....all Link Wray, all the time.....
Would you be issued a report showing that every penny you paid went to his heirs (minus administrative costs, perhaps)?
Without an accounting, it's too much like paying a street thug to watch your car while you're parked in a bad neighborhood "to make sure nothing bad happens to it".

 

[TheBigA]

OK, so do ASCAP and BMI issue reports to each station, showing that if you were, let's say a novelty format....all Link Wray, all the time.....
Would you be issued a report showing that every penny you paid went to his heirs (minus administrative costs, perhaps)?
Without an accounting, it's too much like paying a street thug to watch your car while you're parked in a bad neighborhood "to make sure nothing bad happens to it".

It's the other way around. Radio stations report their music logs to BMI, ASCAP, and SESAC, plus those three agencies have employees who monitor thousands of radio stations around the country. They have very detailed accounting, and it's rare that a writer challenges the information from a PRO. They are highly respected and are simply very good at what they do.

 

[Tom Wells]

OK, so if it's the other way around, where's the accountability?
How would I be assured the royalties paid from the hypothetical station would all go to the family of Link Wray?

 

[TheBigA]

Call them. Ask them. It's all handled when the song is written and published. In order to be published, the writer has to be registered. Once registered, the check knows where to go. It's all very simple.

 

[Tom Wells]

So there's no detailed accounting sent to stations, apparently. I'm not so trusting when a stanger walks up, demands money, and
"assures" me they're going to give the money to my "friend". Maybe if he gives me some collateral, until I talk to my friend, to see
if the money got to him.
I don't care how expensive their suits are, if their business model has no acccountability to justify the charges for and payments of royalties, they are just like the steet thug.

I live in Chicago, and know that lots of money doesn't go where it's supposed to go.


I remember in 1971-2 or so, the little 250w AM I used to visit, that they suddenly had to start logging every song they played
in a hand-written log. I don't know if they were playing both ASCAP and BMI, but in their later years they only ever played
BMI songs, which as I recall was somehow cheaper.

 

[Prais]

Big A said, "Radio stations report their music logs to BMI, ASCAP, and SESAC, plus those three agencies have employees who monitor thousands of radio stations around the country. They have very detailed accounting, and it's rare that a writer challenges the information from a PRO. They are highly respected and are simply very good at what they do."

Tom Wells said, "I live in Chicago, and know that lots of money doesn't go where it's supposed to go."

HA! I lived there growing up and my dad (in his own business) paid off a hundred city inspectors. I know what you mean...

Mr Big, there IS quite a staff of people who monitor - but NOT "THOUSANDS" of stations."

Truthfully, only the ones they want to challenge, or feel that their logs are "suspect." A previous owner of one of my properties had that unfortunate distiction, and was faced with a 100k fine - just prior to his heart attack and death!

The ascrap guy sat in a local motel for 3 days and brought the x-owner a list of his many violations. CAUGHT! That owner had been quite well "connected" and the lawsuit was settled and documented to me, prior to the sales transaction.

Big A is absolutely correct saying, "They have very detailed accounting, and it's rare that a writer challenges the information from a PRO. They are highly respected and are simply very good at what they do."

The systems have been tweaked over more than 80 years. I thought about being one of their "detectives" -but found out it is quite a dangerous and nasty job, much like a collection agency rep-but who gets to travel. They visit not just tv and radio. but bars, beaty shops, drug stores, restaurants, etc; wherever someone has a radio with more than 2 speakers.

And, there IS accountavility - from the composers who ENJOY "going
to their mailbox"and collecting their checks.

 

[LibertyNT]

It would be funny to me the Day one of those Clowns showed up at my Door asking for money.
I would say "Get Off My Lawn" then shut the door ;D

 

[The Beave]

I'm going to be very direct...
Yes, part 15 stations are required by law to pay the PRO's royalties for EVERY song they play...

UNLESS you get a letter (signed & notarized) from every controlling interest and publisher for EVERY song you play acknowledging the fact they are allowing you to play their material "Royalty Free" for the purpose of promotion.

 

[TheBigA]

So there's no detailed accounting sent to stations, apparently. I'm not so trusting when a stanger walks up, demands money, and
"assures" me they're going to give the money to my "friend".

The detailed accounting you seek is sent to the recipients of the money. So the detailed accounting exists. I doubt very much that the radio stations care how much the family of Link Wray gets from the money they send. But if they did, the details are available. The radio stations can do the math. They know how many songs they play, and they know what the royalty rate is. That's usually all they care about. They don't want to be overcharged for the music they play. The folks at BMI and ASCAP are no "strangers."

The story Prais tells is not uncommon, but the PRO that typically has to fight for its money is SESAC. That's the smallest of the PROs, and only a small percentage of songs are licensed by SESAC. They challenge radio stations all the time, especially when one of their songs goes to #1. It's tough for a song to go #1 unless every station in the format is playing it. When that happens, and a station claims it plays no SESAC music, they know something is wrong. Also with monitoring services like Mediabase and BDS, they can see who is playing what music, and there are no mistakes.

But using your logic, how do I know you pay your taxes? And how do I know the tax money we all send in gets used the way we want? We don't, and it isn't. But that doesn't change the fact that we have to send it in, and if we don't, we could get thrown in jail. Just because you have doubts about the system doesn't justify not paying royalties, and if you don't, the law is on their side. You can't use the excuse that you're from Chicago, and you don't trust the system.

 

[Prais]

Big A is absolutely correct!!

 

[gr8oldies]

I worked at a station in the 70s that skipped SESAC, as there was very little product that we even could have used. Just had to be careful about production background stuff. I'd heard a lot of stations got nailed for SESAC fees when "Convoy" became a hit.

More recently I worked at a little AM that owed thousands in back ASCAP, BMI and SESAC fees. Interestingly enough, even with judgements against us, we never got a cease-and-desist to stop playing music. I can imagine a part 15 would be a tiny fish to fry, the ASCAP/BMI narcs are very interested in bars that play music, restaurants and retail stores playing the radio over a speaker system without paying the fees.

I volunteer at a LPFM oldies station that sometimes plays obscure oldies. I can see some heir getting that check for $1.39.

 

[TheBigA]

As I said earlier in this thread, I know of several Part 15s that shut down specifically because of royalties.

 

[H82BL8]

There are several different rights issues to be aware of here and it does not always have to do with whether or not you profited. RIAA filed over 40,000 lawsuits with an average penatly of $3,500.00.

Empirical copies of songs stored on your computer must be licensed.
If you broadcast and Part 15 broadcasting is questionable, you must pay royalties to writers and publishers to PROs.
If you stream you must pay performance royalties to SoundExchange.
All of these licenses require reporting. Yuk!

But, if you do business like most of the Online Music Distributors and ask artists to waive there rights in exchange for promotion, you're good to go!

 

[Bongwater]

First of all, you can't be everywhere at once.

Neither can a PRO narc. Can you just imagine how many of these it would take to thoroughly be effective? Just to bust tiny Part 15 stations? Please......

Trust me, ASCAP/BMI have enough money problems as it is. They could hire a MILLION of these people and STILL not achieve much of ANYTHING for the expense spent. And when there's bigger fish to fry (such as licensed stations that fall behind on payments, countless bars and restaurants. Or international pirate record companies), some guy playing oldies on a 100mW transmitter is no more a priority that some kid blasting Insane Clown Posse from an MP3 player to an overmodulated Belkin FM transmitter.

For all the tough talk on Part 15 and collecting royalties, I can assure you for every Part 15 station they bust, there are at LEAST several thousand others that will never be detected. What usually puts Part 15ers in their crosshairs is promotion. Meaning you have a web site namely. These are people who cannot go on wild goose chases everywhere, scanning up and down the dial looking for trouble and come back day after day finding nothing. As much as Big A would hate for me to say it, the PRO's financial resources are not that infinite. They have to make specific targets. And preferably BIG ones, like an upstart bar/tavern, community theatre or some place guaranteed to have a large number of people exposed to music they license.

 

[RadioMan203]

Very well put, Bong. In simple terms, they won't expend extraordinary amounts of money to collect very little return. I know of one person who operated a ethnic dance club and the rep from the Big A came around to collect royalties.

 

[TheBigA]

As much as Big A would hate for me to say it, the PRO's financial resources are not that infinite.

Hey look...people break the law every second. They run red lights, speed, drive drunk, cheat on their taxes, and all forms of white collar crime. We have a whole bunch of people who do illegal drugs. Most of them probably never get caught. BUT...the point is...it's a crime, and you have no defense. Are you willing to take that risk? To quote Clint Eastwood, "Do you feel lucky, punk? Do ya?"

 

[Bongwater]

As much as Big A would hate for me to say it, the PRO's financial resources are not that infinite.

Hey look...people break the law every second. They run red lights, speed, drive drunk, cheat on their taxes, and all forms of white collar crime. We have a whole bunch of people who do illegal drugs. Most of them probably never get caught. BUT...the point is...it's a crime, and you have no defense. Are you willing to take that risk? To quote Clint Eastwood, "Do you feel lucky, punk? Do ya?"

But when the "crime" inflicted is no different WHATSOEVER than some dude blasting the latest Eminem CD from a subwoofer packed car (you think you're just gonna pull him/her over and fine them?), and actually the subwoofer dude has FAR MORE listeners than your average Part 15 station - and NOT by choice either.

Does THAT seem fair?

OF COURSE IT DOESN'T! Because terrorizing little Part 15ers up here is far more EASIER than walking up to a gangsta who could be packin'.

Prove me wrong.

What we're dealing with here is a RIDICULOUS double standard. And NOT a crime in my opinion. So before you go chasing after little Part 15ers, kindly remember the hypocrisy (or at least the irony) of your aims. The risk/defense issue is moot when you consider that. Remember that next time you're on the beach and you get that uncontrollable urge to put a damper on that beach party...

Playing ASCAP/BMI tunes on a 100mW transmitter without permission isn't like serial killing or running a meth lab in any way. And trying to enforce these royalties from Part 15ers is really like trying to tax air.

 

[Prais]

Bong,
Just an observaationn about your "defense" on this topic; You sound like you operate a network of part 15 stations without a music license. Either that or your conscience is really bothering you.

 

[Bongwater]

Bong,
Just an observaationn about your "defense" on this topic; You sound like you operate a network of part 15 stations without a music license. Either that or your conscience is really bothering you.

Nah, no network here. And my conscience is clear. I'm just pointing out the glaringly obvious.......

 

[TheBigA]

Playing ASCAP/BMI tunes on a 100mW transmitter without permission isn't like serial killing or running a meth lab in any way. And trying to enforce these royalties from Part 15ers is really like trying to tax air.

A crime is a crime regardless of the amount of money you steal. The punishment won't be the same as if you were a serial killer or running a meth lab. But it's still a crime. Air isn't taxed. But using someone else's property without their permission is illegal. You can try to justify it any way you can, if it makes you feel better. But if you get caught, none of those justifications will work.

I read a lot of comments on this board from Part 15 operators who take a lot of pride in what they do, and are offended when they don't get the same respect as other broadcasters. They feel what they do is as professional as any other operation, just on a smaller scale. If you have pride in your work, you will follow the law, whether it's FCC law or copyright law. Otherwise, you're no better than the kid with the speakers blasting out of his dorm room window.