Are the extra HD channels necessarily better ?

[700WLW]

The dangers of "too much choice"

"Words of warning for those who think a zillion channels of anything - satellite, hd, or Internet radio stations - will give more people more of what they want and make them happier as a result."

http://www.hear2.com/2006/12/the_dangers_of_.html#comments

I guess, not !

 

[Mike Walker]

We live in "country music country"...the foothills of Northwest North Carolina. In the 90s all but one FM station in the area dropped ALL heritage country artists (Johnny Cash, Waylong Jennings, Willie Nelson, Dolly Parton, George Jones, you know...the lightweights) in favor of "young country". The only station that continued to play heritage country was bought by Clear Channel, their signal was DOWNGRADED, and they were moved 40 miles to the east to become a black/urban station.

So I was DELIGHTED when WTQR (Greensboro) brought back REAL (heritage) country music on their HD2 channel. It ain't just a "niche"...it's a part of this area's identity, it's cultural soul that had been amputated.

Ditto "Jack FM" bringing back the WCBS oldies format on their HD2 channel. A major market with no room for heritage country (particularly in the south), or oldies (anywhere) is missing something important. Thank God that HD2 makes it possible to bring back some of what's been lost!

Having said that, of course some HD2 channels suck! Duh!

 

[700WLW]

Heck, I just DX to WABC NY, from Maryland, every Saturday night for 1960's oldies - no need for extra HD channels. This was a brillant move on WABC's part, and if you look at their web site, there is even an extra blog, just for the oldies (and it is very extensive) - this is the kind of smart programming that the main channels need to be doing, to bring back listeners, not HD Radio. I couldn't believe that WABC was doing this, because I used to listen to them from camp in New Hampshire, and heard the Doors for the first time - they even run clips from the 1960's DJs - how cool ! In Maryland, we have 94.7 FM, and a few others, for classic rock - again, no need for extra HD channels.

 

[Chuck]

If these "new" channels are so much better, why don't they just put them on their existing analog channels where somebody might be able to hear them? It would have be better than the thirty-third rehash of the mutant of a similar format that is on every other station in the market.

Just wondering...

 

[jim8230]

Mike Walker said, "....WTQR (Greensboro) brought back REAL (heritage) country music on their HD2 channel. It ain't just a "niche"...it's a part of this area's identity, it's cultural soul that had been amputated."

Mike, I agree that this is a good use for the HD2 channel. However, if the corporate giants didn't exterminate the format in the first place, you wouldn't need to buy a new radio to get the music you want. Let's face it, had not what we want to hear been replaced with what the suits in Las Vegas (for example) think we should hear, this format would be available to more than 100 or so listeners.

The old saying goes; "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". The FCC has allowed big business to "fix" what was not broken in the first place. Now, we have a big mess on hands.

 

[SUPERCASTER]

If these "new" channels are so much better, why don't they just put them on their existing analog channels where somebody might be able to hear them? It would have be better than the thirty-third rehash of the mutant of a similar format that is on every other station in the market.

Just wondering...

Ditto.
Since virtually no listeners are complaining about the quality or coverage of analog radio, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".
Most broadcasters are already internet streaming (even their HD channels), and are thus automatically available over WI-FI and soon WI-MAX. So, who needs problematic iBiquity HD radio?
If FMs really want over the air digital, why not go with the one system that does no harm, needs no rule changes, causes no interference, is full power, and costs very little cash, FMeXtra? - www.dreinc.com

 

[Mike Walker]

I'm not such a "fanboy" that I'm certain Ibiquity's HD Raido is the perfect, long-term solution for digital fm. But it DOES work far better than I expected (I get stations from 70+ miles away with rabbit ears), and although I have listened carefully trying to hear interference from the digital information (on fm), I have yet to hear it. The REAL problem wish analog fm audio isn't interference from the digital information, it's distortion from over-aggressive-processing. FM is friggin' distorted these days (with the exception of a few locally owned commercial stations, and most public radio outlets).

I agree FM-Extra was probably a better system. But let's get real about internet streaming. If stations that serve hundreds of thousands (or in big cities even millions) of people per week suddenly had to pay for streaming to ALL OF THEM, they'd quit it pretty quick (once they got the bill!) It's the biggest problem with i.p. radio in general...the more people listen, the more it costs. Solve that problem...so that distribution costs are fixed (as with traditional and digital AM and FM), and I'm with ya'!

 

[dumber than a box of hair]

The dangers of "too much choice"

"Words of warning for those who think a zillion channels of anything - satellite, hd, or Internet radio stations - will give more people more of what they want and make them happier as a result."

http://www.hear2.com/2006/12/the_dangers_of_.html#comments

I guess, not !

Once again the radio industry shows that it is utterly incapable of learning from its past mistakes. Back in the 1970s, we had FCC Docket 80-90, which permitted "move-in" FM allocations and coined the term "rim-shot," as it applied to suburban stations seeking to serve larger metro areas. The result was that formerly profitable stations started drowning in red ink, and more than a few went silent, because there were too many stations for the local economies to support.

Now the industry believes that HD2, HD3 etc. streams are the answer to the steady erosion of radio's audience, when the number of people listening to radio is diminishing. Where are all these listeners going to come from? How are these streams going to pay for themselves (especially since, by mutual agreement, the secondary streams are going to be commercial-free for another 18 months or so)? All that's going to happen is the value of a station's commercial inventory is going to drop like a stone, since the income from that inventory now has to support the costs of running the secondary channels as well as the main channel.

Further, take a look at the formats being placed on the secondaries. WCBS-FM put their oldies format on HD2. Yeah, that was a meaningful move, when virtually no one has a receiver that can hear it. One of the stations in Boston is running an Irish music format. Lots of mass appeal there, wouldn't you say? Some of the secondary programming makes sense, especially if there's a co-owned AM signal which is daytime only or very low power, which gets put on an HD2 channel enabling them to broadcast full-time. Otherwise, the formats are on secondaries because they don't work on the primaries. What makes anyone think they'll work on the secondaries?

 

[w9wi]

Otherwise, the formats are on secondaries because they don't work on the primaries. What makes anyone think they'll work on the secondaries?

Especially once they do start running advertising. Will the WCBS-HD2 listeners switch to satellite once the ads start flowing? Will WCBS keep the clutter low enough that doesn't happen? If so, will the revenue be enough to keep management interested in covering the expenses of the HD2 channel? (a lot less than another station, but not zero) Will the more exotic HD2 programs remain once they have to attract advertisers? Or will we see the same "format of the month" situation we're seeing on many analog stations?

I envy those who have something interesting on their local HD2s. Around here (Nashville), WPLN (NPR) is the only station with anything worthwhile on HD2. Three CC stations also have HD2 streams but two of them are running formats already available (and done better) on analog stations.

 

[clouseau]

Despite the "I'll say anything to run down HD radio" mentality by Crosley, the question of "Too much choice" is an interesting one. From an economic perspective, there is too much broadcast radio in many markets. Not the "BIG" markets, but some of the little ones.

Too many choices lead to too few listeners per station which leads to low rates and then more commercials.

Automation has lowered the cost of running a station. This allowed more stations to exist at a profit, albeit many at a much lower quality. And it's run up theprice of purchasing stations. So in effect limited supply of stations has made for more commercials.

Now you've got the ability to run a station for almost free. It seems like a great idea. However...

Radio does not live in a vaccuum. There's Satellite radio with 100+ choices each (System)

There's much higher quality personal audio (IPODS, CD's Etc...)

There's the emerging net entertainment. Radio needs to focus on what it does best with these extra choices it has.

It's not best as a jukebox. (Although intelligent music programming makes very good sense.)

Radio's strength is it's immediacy and it's ability to fit into your life. It's ease of use. It's localization. It's relative cost. It's availability.

Fortunately, XM and Sirius have gotten a few broadcasters to to see where they need to go. Because as a radio station, you are never going to be able to play "More in a row" than a subscription music service.

What might be an indicator or radio's future challenges are the satellite numbers. Sat Radio sales are actually DOWN from last year. (Inside radio) And only roughly 50% of all sat radio owners who got their radio in a car renew after their free trial. (I forget where I read that.) Remember that everytime they make a car with a sat radio, it's counted as a subscriber. Does this show that the majority of the Country is not willing to pay for a variation of radio? Might be. It's not like you can't get a lot of what on Sat for free.

That might speak volumes about the whole 10,000 in a row thing.

I don't think more choices are a bad idea for radio. But I think more choices that aren't worthwhile and don't allow radio to do what it does best are just silly. If someone really wants non stop new age jazz, they're going to get a sat radio. (They and their 2000 friends from coast to coast should). That's what it does best

That's why it's there.

Now it's up to radio to make the HD channels worthwhile in a rdaio sense. They might be cool or interesting now, but they need to stand on their own 2 feet to be worthwhile. Let's also remember that the "National availability" of HD is still a couple of years away. Yeah yeah. 27 stations in NYC. How many in Amarillo so far? It's going to be Evolutionary not REVOLUTIONARY. Give it time.

Clouseau

 

[dumber than a box of hair]

Let's also remember that the "National availability" of HD is still a couple of years away.

A "couple of years away?" GMAB. We're talking about replacing the better part of 800 million radios (the industry's estimate, not mine) before HD Radio becomes economically viable on its own. That's not going to happen for decades, if at all, especially since analog radios are still available and still cheaper than digital ones, and since consumers currently see no benefits at all from HD Radio, if they're even aware it exists.

The only thing that's happened in a "couple of years" is the repeatedly squandered opportunities of iBiquity and the radio manufacturers to get their act together and start marketing this turkey. Until they stop telling us "wait until next year" and start aggresively marketing HD Radio the way it should be done (meaning, no non-working radios on store shelves and the complete destruction of most consumers' current perceptions that they are listening to HD audio on analog radios), this tech is a dead duck, the same as AM stereo or FM quad.

We have to remember that we who populate these boards are NOT the average radio listener. Our perceptions are not the same as theirs. HD Radio, as currently sold and marketed, is NOT a must-have. If this tech is to have any chance of success at all, that perception has to change, and those who are marketing the product right now are NOT getting the job done.

 

[hipporadio]

So I was DELIGHTED when WTQR (Greensboro) brought back REAL (heritage) country music on their HD2 channel...

Ditto "Jack FM" bringing back the WCBS oldies format on their HD2 channel...

Mike... You’re a good radio man (I’ve read your posts elsewhere)—PLEASE don’t use “HD-2” as some sort of post-partum for what took place at WCBS-FM or in Statesville, NC. Frankly, I feel this industry amputated its own right leg when ‘CBS-FM became “Jack-Off-In-The-Box”. Sorry for the “drama”—but that’s just how I feel. The shameless situation with the downgrade in Statesville was a real bruise also—and would have NOT been permitted in the Pre-Bush FCC... But then the Gorillas have now become the zookeepers—and “in the public interest” has become some tired ole historical cliché to these Enron-like CC types... What’s the difference? ...They just haven’t made it to jail to join their Houston corporate gas 'n oil buddies!

The unreasonable facsimile formerly known as Oldies 101.9 on a glorified WinAmp PC—barely attended—is no way to sell anemic HD-2 channels... And I’m happy that a 30-mile radius around WTQR has once again been served up with “Carolina Country”—but the same rational judgment applies... “second best” is NO substitute!

All that is wrong (or defective) with FM HD can be squared when it comes to the poor-sounding even-more-anemic HD-2 services. No commercials—FINE, but what smart media buyer would even accept a “bonus” on some service living vicariously thru a broom-closet PC and requiring an 80dbu better-than-metro signal to even appear on some here-today/discontinued-tomorrow table radio available at under HALF of the Radio Shack stores that are supposed to offer it. I’m so very impressed that “big radio” is depending on that glorified cell phone kiosk to market their future!

 

[700WLW]

Now it's up to radio to make the HD channels worthwhile in a rdaio sense. They might be cool or interesting now, but they need to stand on their own 2 feet to be worthwhile. Let's also remember that the "National availability" of HD is still a couple of years away. Yeah yeah. 27 stations in NYC. How many in Amarillo so far? It's going to be Evolutionary not REVOLUTIONARY. Give it time.

Clouseau

And, good luck convincing consumers to stop buying the estimated 70 million analog radios every year - there is no way this HD Radio turkey is ever going to catch on; how many consumers have turned in their analog radios on ebay, as credit for HD radios - I bet, not many ! Broadcasters can't turn off analog, so even DRM, as in Canada and probably the UK, is also doomed to fail. IBOC will never work, since the HD channels can only be broadcast in 1/100 the the power of the main analog signal, so reception will always be a major issue. LOL !

 

[Black_Shire]

I think that by "National Availability," he meant that HD radio signals would be available in most markets. Even if that happens (which is increasingly doubtful, especially on the HD AM side), it will be meaningless unless people start buying HD radio receivers in large enough numbers to reach critical mass.

The HD radio rollout reminds me very much of the US government's attempts to convert the country to the metric system and (more recently) their abortive attempts to replace the $1 bill with various $1 coins. Most citizens saw no reason to change to metric or trade their $1 bills for $1 coins despite the government's public education campaigns for both (and indeed, saw the headaches involved with both changes, which the majority deemed to be not worth the advantages).

The FCC-forced adoption of HDTV in the US is like Canada's adoption of $1 and $2 coins and Australia's conversion to the metric system--in all three cases, the government decided to withdraw the old and replace it with the new by force of law. (Canada's metric conversion was never completed due to subsequent conservative Prime Ministers and market pressures from their largest [and mostly non-metric] trading partner to their South.) The only reason why there isn't a public uproar over the forced HDTV conversion is that HDTV/analog TV converter boxes are available, so that existing TV sets won't become irretrievably unusable overnight.

This converter box option simply isn't available for the hundreds of millions of analog AM-only, FM-only, and AM/FM clock radios, Walkmans, "boom-boxes," table radios, car radios, shower radios, pen radios, and pocket radios. In addition, most people (audiophiles excepted) just will not spend a lot of money on radio receivers, especially if the more expensive IBOC radios are not perceived as being much if any better than cheaper analog radios.

The implied questions of the average US radio listener regarding IBOC are the same as those of the average US citizen regarding metric conversion and changing from $1 bills to $1 coins: "Why?" * "How does it help me?" * "My (radios/measurement system/currency) suit my needs just fine as they are, so why change it/them?"

Until and unless the corporate HD radio proponents come up with compelling answers to those questions, HD radio won't go anywhere fast and will ultimately go away.


-- Black Shire

Let's also remember that the "National availability" of HD is still a couple of years away.

A "couple of years away?" GMAB. We're talking about replacing the better part of 800 million radios (the industry's estimate, not mine) before HD Radio becomes economically viable on its own. That's not going to happen for decades, if at all, especially since analog radios are still available and still cheaper than digital ones, and since consumers currently see no benefits at all from HD Radio, if they're even aware it exists.

The only thing that's happened in a "couple of years" is the repeatedly squandered opportunities of iBiquity and the radio manufacturers to get their act together and start marketing this turkey. Until they stop telling us "wait until next year" and start aggresively marketing HD Radio the way it should be done (meaning, no non-working radios on store shelves and the complete destruction of most consumers' current perceptions that they are listening to HD audio on analog radios), this tech is a dead duck, the same as AM stereo or FM quad.

We have to remember that we who populate these boards are NOT the average radio listener. Our perceptions are not the same as theirs. HD Radio, as currently sold and marketed, is NOT a must-have. If this tech is to have any chance of success at all, that perception has to change, and those who are marketing the product right now are NOT getting the job done.

 

[Mike Walker]

Americans gave up buying analog televisions pretty darned quickly (the better part of a DECADE...that's quick for 70 year old, firmly entrenched technology!) They'll do the same with HD Radio...over perhaps a decade. I don't think it's "either/or". I think that analog is necessary as a backup for when digital won't lock on (fringe areas), during emergency situations, and simply because for a 10 dollar clock radio from Wal Mart of CVS, analog does just fine, thank you. Plus those of us who collect classic radios would be pretty pissed if suddenly our Trans Oceanics and Hallicrafters were DOORSTOPS!

Digital isn't the enemy. It's a trusty new companion, providing higher performance in certain circumstances, and just going "along for the ride" in others. Unlike digital tv, which uses addisional spectrum, digital radio doesn't...so there's no compelling reason to ever turn off analog. Again, digital is neither better, nor worse. And thinking of it as a "replacement" is just wrong-headed. It's an ENHANCEMENT, not a replacement. A companion, not a competitor.

 

[700WLW]

Americans gave up buying analog televisions pretty darned quickly (the better part of a DECADE...that's quick for 70 year old, firmly entrenched technology!) They'll do the same with HD Radio...over perhaps a decade. I don't think it's "either/or". I think that analog is necessary as a backup for when digital won't lock on (fringe areas), during emergency situations, and simply because for a 10 dollar clock radio from Wal Mart of CVS, analog does just fine, thank you. Plus those of us who collect classic radios would be pretty pissed if suddenly our Trans Oceanics and Hallicrafters were DOORSTOPS!

Digital isn't the enemy. It's a trusty new companion, providing higher performance in certain circumstances, and just going "along for the ride" in others. Unlike digital tv, which uses addisional spectrum, digital radio doesn't...so there's no compelling reason to ever turn off analog. Again, digital is neither better, nor worse. And thinking of it as a "replacement" is just wrong-headed. It's an ENHANCEMENT, not a replacement. A companion, not a competitor.

This fraud and a farse, called HD Radio, will surely fail - there is NO public interest in this joke, and giving it time will make no difference. DAB is failing in Canada and struggling in the UK - the general public does not care enough about terrestrial radio, to spend hundreds on new HD radios. HD Radio is not an enhancement, but a poor replacement for analog terrestrial radio - people do not have a problem with analog radio (like they care, anyway), but DO have a problem with lousy content. Digital is part of the enemy too, with an all-or-nothing approach, dropping back to analog, when out of range; digital sound qulaity, with its digital artifacts, is inferior to pure analog. iBiquity's and the HD Radio Cartel's executive officers should be arrested for fraud.

 

[clouseau]

So here came the obligatory "Fraud" (I've never gotten that one) and Farse,(That's a new one I think) references.

This fraud and a farse, called HD Radio, will surely fail

The FM HD variety works well enough. There are posts to that effect right here in this forum. Your parrot-like squawking to the contrary does not change that.

there is NO public interest in this joke, and giving it time will make no difference.

Unless you own a modified Delorean, I would suggest that neither you nor I know what WILL happen in the future. It DOES appear only one of us has the sense to realize that, though. The millions spent on it by broadcasters and their ability to advertise it to people at no cost will make a difference. How MUCH of a difference remains to be seen.

DAB is failing in Canada and struggling in the UK - the general public does not care enough about terrestrial radio, to spend hundreds on new HD radios.

More irrelavant Bravo Sierra. It is now possible to buy either a home radio or a car radio without spending "Hundreds". And I think even you have stated you think the price will come down. It was the Dollar store you thought they'd be in soon, right?

HD Radio is not an enhancement, but a poor replacement for analog terrestrial radio -

HD will not replace analog for the forseeable future. To say it is a replacement is an error. You know it and we know it. SQAWK!! Fraud! SQUAWK! Digital is inferior. It's just more Bravo Sierra. Also, I would be hard pressed to understand how an "Optional" HD-2 and HD-3 channel does not "Enhance" the offerings of an FM broadcaster. I guess I just don't get it. Pass me some of that Bird seed will ya?

people do not have a problem with analog radio (like they care, anyway), but DO have a problem with lousy content.

Agreed to an extent. Digital vs analog is not the major issue facing radio. It's getting back to what they do best. Big winning stations in Big markets get this. Others need to follow. Funny how your campaign against digital appears to be programming based.

Digital is part of the enemy too, with an all-or-nothing approach, dropping back to analog, when out of range;

Let me see. I believe your concern is that digital does not work when out of range. Pass the Bird seed. It's not supposed to work when out of range. Hence the term "OUT OF RANGE". The all or nothing approach doesn't seem to bother you with wifi radio.

digital sound qulaity, with its digital artifacts, is inferior to pure analog.

Maybe we should start by banning internet audio? (Sorry couldn't resist)

Seriously, though, there's more digital artifacts on an average CD than there ever were on an 8-Track, but I haven't seen many people clamoring to go back to tape.

iBiquity's and the HD Radio Cartel's executive officers should be arrested for fraud.

Absolutely! And why not their families, too. You don't want this type to reproduce. And all those people they know. They may have contaminated them. And don't forget their pets. Now that could be a problem too.
[EDIT]

Clouseau

[EDIT--inflammatory]

 

[PhilJSmith67]

Unlike digital tv, which uses addisional spectrum, digital radio doesn't...

What? HD Radio INDEED uses additional spectrum, except that it's interference effects are far more elusive than explicitly allocated DTV channels. RTFS. Read the spec if you disbelieve. IBOC sidebands begin beyond what is normally the outside 91kHz SCA sideband, and go well beyond the +/- 100kHz limit where the next FM channel begins. Why do you think stations with HD Radio can still run RDS, a 67kHz, and a 92 kHz subcarrier, which fill their channel?

To listeners living in the heart of a metropolitan are, most "rimshot" signals are wiped out by the local stations running IBOC. Listeners in the rimshot zones and rural areas have their choices dramatically reduced every time another local station adds IBOC, wiping out a distant city-based station that was once a viable choice. I have had five such stations, which I once had on presets, wiped out by IBOC hash splattering over from adjacent stations.

Furthermore, because of the inarguably crappy design of hybrid-mode HD Radio, my original stations that were wiped out by IBOC splatter haven't been "displaced" by new choices via HD Radio, because the HD signals are apparently was too weak to be listenable, even though I can hear the analog counterparts clearly. What a great system. The HD signals are too weak to provide viable content, but they're strong enough to wipe out previously-listenable stations. As for the JVC self-contained HD Radio receiver, you better live close to the stations you like, and you better not mind frequent dropouts or blending back to analog.

Let's not even start that BS argument about "well you need a better radio, replace the ceramic capacitors in your radio's IF section, etc." I didn't need a "better radio" before. One of my receivers has an extremely tight IF, which coincidentally makes it sound awful, and it barely helps the situation. Funny, I have a couple receivers with RDS, a system that adds limited digital content to my perfectly fine analog stations, which is TRULY In-Band-On-Channel. Oh yeah, they can't fight back the IBOC splatter, either.

I can't wait until 100% of the stations add HD Radio. iBiquity is single-handedly going to reverse the decline of stock prices for XM and Sirius.

 

[700WLW]

iBiquity's and the HD Radio Cartel's executive officers should be arrested for fraud.

Absolutely! And why not their families, too. You don't want this type to reproduce. And all those people they know. They may have contaminated them. And don't forget their pets. Now that could be a problem too.
[EDIT]

Clouseau

[EDIT--inflammatory]

How, did I guess, that my post would get such a reaction out of you ? ;D I am only 20 minutes from Ibiquity's headquarters in Columbia, Md. - when I get off, I am going to call the Howard County Police and have iBiquity's executive officers arrested, then I am going to do some dumpster-diving, tonight !

 

[dumber than a box of hair]

The millions spent on it by broadcasters and their ability to advertise it to people at no cost will make a difference.

"At no cost"??? In your dreams. Every time a promo is run, outside of a commercial message, there is most definitely a cost. Someone has to produce it, and it takes away commercial inventory that would otherwise be sold. There are a finite number of commercial availabilities out there. EVERYTHING broadcasters air has a cost.

Further, the only "difference" that's been made so far is that listeners think they're hearing HD Radio without having purchased an HD receiver. That perception is being repeatedly reported by industry consultants. Whatever advertising has been done up to this point has been ineffective in getting the point across that you need a new radio to get HD.

Also, I would be hard pressed to understand how an "Optional" HD-2 and HD-3 channel does not "Enhance" the offerings of an FM broadcaster.

1) The secondary signals don't go very far. The NPR studies show that the secondaries are usable only to approximately the 80-dBu contour, while the primaries easily make it to the 60.

2) So far, the secondary signals are being programmed with formats that either a) have already been tried and failed on the primary, or b) are of such limited interest as to not attract nearly the number of listeners that would make them economically viable.

3) It's a recipe for economic disaster to double or triple the number of FM signals available to listeners when the universe of listeners isn't correspondingly increasing. Remember Docket 80-90, and what that did to lots of formerly profitable FM stations? The radio business insists on ignoring its own history and refuses to learn from its past mistakes.

Cliff's Notes: It's not an "enhancement" when you start out with such enormous handicaps.