Automakers come out against HD Radio mandate

[KB1OKL]

Two key automakers have come out strongly against proposals calling for an FCC mandate that HD Radios be included within all satellite radios, should the merger between Sirius Satellite Radio Inc. and XM Satellite Radio Holdings Inc. be approved.

General Motors Corporation and Toyota Motor Sales USA, Inc. jointly filed a letter to the FCC, expressing opposition to the "unprecedented requirement" of the broadcaster-supported HD Radio proposals.

"HD is already penetrating the automotive sector without a mandate. Several manufacturers are either currently offering HD or have announced plans to make HD radio standard or optional in future models," wrote GM and Toyota.

Read more at:

http://www.orbitcast.com/archives/automakers-come-out-against-hd-radio-mandate.html#comments

Some great comments there also.

 

[LinoNYC]

Read more at:

http://www.orbitcast.com/archives/automakers-come-out-against-hd-radio-mandate.html#comments

Some great comments there also.

"Great comments": NAB/ SHILL is a DELUSIONAL ******BAG TESTICLE RADIO “TAKES IT IN THE REHR!” etc.

Right on the level of beavis and butthead quotes Bob.

Posted by such luminaries as:Anonymous Coward and Paul Vincent Zecchino aka Gaseous Quack.

I have to laugh at those rabid proponents of satrad, given the current churn rate those receivers will be an interesting relic in some 6-7 years.

Merger or not.

Lino

 

[radioskeptic]

You’ve got a point about satellite radio’s dim prospects, Lino. Last month (6/20), Inside Radio reported that Mark Wienkes, an analyst for Goldman Sachs, was advising his clients to sell any shares they had in either XM or Sirius, regardless of whether the merger goes through. Why? Because with cancelllations on the rise because of rising fuel costs – and the consequent rise in the price of everything delivered by truck as well—and with the younger generation no more interested in satellite than in terrestrial radio, satradio has “no where to go but down.”

So if you’re happy to hear that, enjoy your Schadenfreude while you can, because pretty soon those overpriced, underperfornming “HD” radios are going to be prematurely antiquated relics, too!

 

[KB1OKL]

Read more at:

http://www.orbitcast.com/archives/automakers-come-out-against-hd-radio-mandate.html#comments

Some great comments there also.

"Great comments": NAB/ SHILL is a DELUSIONAL ******BAG TESTICLE RADIO “TAKES IT IN THE REHR!” etc.

Right on the level of beavis and butthead quotes Bob.

Posted by such luminaries as:Anonymous Coward and Paul Vincent Zecchino aka Gaseous Quack.

I have to laugh at those rabid proponents of satrad, given the current churn rate those receivers will be an interesting relic in some 6-7 years.

Merger or not.

Lino

Lino you have to look through the language to the sensitive sentiments underneath it. ;D I thought the last one was kind of funny though. I don't own a Satrad receiver either but highly resent HD's trying to piggyback their way into cars on someone else's hard work. They need to either make it or break it on their own and we know which way they're going don't we?

 

[clouseau]

I don't own a Satrad receiver either but highly resent HD's trying to piggyback their way into cars on someone else's hard work.

Hard work? That's rich.

I do not believe there is any "Hard Work" about it. It's all about the CASH automakers get from Sat rad providers to install their products.

MLB acknowledged XM's "Hard Work" with MLB by requiring them (As agreed to) to borrow money for their MLB escrow account. Like most things satellite radio, it just took another mountain of money and everyone loves them.

Clear Channel made almost $100 million in the first quarter of 2008 and funded HD deployment on their stations themselves. I don't have the EXACT figures for satrad, but I'm hearing it's not QUITE as profitable.

Clouseau

 

[LinoNYC]

You’ve got a point about satellite radio’s dim prospects, Lino. Last month (6/20), Inside Radio reported that Mark Wienkes, an analyst for Goldman Sachs, was advising his clients to sell any shares they had in either XM or Sirius, regardless of whether the merger goes through. Why? Because with cancelllations on the rise because of rising fuel costs – and the consequent rise in the price of everything delivered by truck as well—and with the younger generation no more interested in satellite than in terrestrial radio, satradio has “no where to go but down.”

So if you’re happy to hear that, enjoy your Schadenfreude while you can, because pretty soon those overpriced, underperfornming “HD” radios are going to be prematurely antiquated relics, too!

I am not "happy" to read of satellite radio's travails, I simply don't care.

HD radio has a far greater chance at longterm survival and acceptance. One requires an enormous outlay for the launch of a satellite, the maintaining of a huge central studio complex, and ultimately crushing acquisition costs for each subscriber.

IBOC simply piggybacks on existing carriers (granted the installs can be complicated in some cases) uses existing programming and for FM can be used as a low cost way to plug format holes and lure back listeners whose formats no longer justify a a main carrier outlet.

HD radio has one big advantage that satellite lacks: Time.

Lino

 

[dxer720]

Can't everyone agree on what goes in the dash? There's room enough for all...Let the driver decide what to tune. I don't agree with the HD radio folks pushing the FCC to force Sat radios to include HD. I have 2 XM radios & love the service, but I also know that HD could blow satrad out of the water if the programming is diverse enough. They also need to get HD radios that are smaller than iPods like satrad has done.

If the HD allience would thow some money to the automakers, instead of bombarding us with those terrible spots for HD radio, they get into cars & that exposure they need.

With all the delivery methods available, HD (& for that matter, satrad) better get the word out soon or they'll get lost in the audio jungle & die off.

 

[KB1OKL]

Can't everyone agree on what goes in the dash? There's room enough for all...Let the driver decide what to tune. I don't agree with the HD radio folks pushing the FCC to force Sat radios to include HD.but I also know that HD could blow satrad out of the water if the programming is diverse enough.

With all the delivery methods available, HD (& for that matter, satrad) better get the word out soon or they'll get lost in the audio jungle & die off.

I will change one word in your post:

but I also know that ANALOG could blow Satrad out of the water if the programming is diverse enough.

Your sentence with that one word change points out what most people (except for the IBOCers) have been saying all along: it's the content, there's nothing wrong with the delivery system, it is what is being delivered most of the time that sucks. That's like trying to blame the Post Office because all it delivers is bills.
HD does nothing for radio besides add noise, cover adjacents, cut the range severely and add artificial highs. There is NOTHING wrong with the sound of a good analog radio, in fact they sound better and are not artificially recreating sound like digital sound does. AM IBOC is a complete waste of time and money, FM is not much better. They are intrusions into an already fine working system meant to make money nothing else, there is not one real advantage to IBOC unless you live in a city like NY where you are in line of sight of the towers whether anyone here cares to admit it or not, even then the sound is artificial sounding which to me is a negative. I don't like saccharine in my coffee and don't like IBOC in my radio. Some people just like gadgets with little lights I guess.
HD was lost in the audio jungle before it stepped foot on the first piece of grass.

 

[clouseau]

I will change one word in your post:

but I also know that ANALOG could blow Satrad out of the water if the programming is diverse enough.

Your sentence with that one word change points out what most people (except for the IBOCers) have been saying all along: it's the content, there's nothing wrong with the delivery system, it is what is being delivered most of the time that sucks. That's like trying to blame the Post Office because all it delivers is bills.
HD does nothing for radio besides add noise, cover adjacents, cut the range severely and add artificial highs. There is NOTHING wrong with the sound of a good analog radio, in fact they sound better and are not artificially recreating sound like digital sound does. AM IBOC is a complete waste of time and money, FM is not much better. They are intrusions into an already fine working system meant to make money nothing else, there is not one real advantage to IBOC unless you live in a city like NY where you are in line of sight of the towers whether anyone here cares to admit it or not, even then the sound is artificial sounding which to me is a negative. I don't like saccharine in my coffee and don't like IBOC in my radio. Some people just like gadgets with little lights I guess.
HD was lost in the audio jungle before it stepped foot on the first piece of grass.

Bob, I just don't see that the diversity you like is possible in the 25 channel universe. You have to get up to around 50 or so to be able to get some of that "SatRad Diversity". Heck, even Analog Smooth Jazz is dying on the vine around the country it would seem.

As a programmer, supporting the sales department, I would rather be the number 2 Classic Hits station than a lot of what satrad offers. COMMERCIALLY, I'm going to need to get fairly far down the food chain to get some of those really interesting formats. 50's-60's oldies don't fly in the 25 stations universe. No digital for subchannels - No diversity.

As I see it, It's economics.

Clouseau

 

[kenglish]

How many drivers go to the trouble of replacing the factory-standard radio with something different?

Wouldn't it make more sense for everybody to push for a standard "interchangeable" mount for car radios? Just stick a screwdriver in a hole, turn a half-turn, and slide out the old radio. Plug the new one in, and you're done (unless you need a different antenna, like with satellite).

Of course, it might cut in on some installers' business.

 

[Chuck]

How many drivers go to the trouble of replacing the factory-standard radio with something different?

Wouldn't it make more sense for everybody to push for a standard "interchangeable" mount for car radios? Just stick a screwdriver in a hole, turn a half-turn, and slide out the old radio. Plug the new one in, and you're done (unless you need a different antenna, like with satellite).

Of course, it might cut in on some installers' business.

Most of today's factory issued car radios are heavily integrated with the rest of the car's electronics. Changing the radio in my (2007) car would be a nightmare. I'm also sure it would make several other systems inoperable and void any warranty.

Even though it sounds simple, I suspect that making something "universal" would be very hard to accomplish unless the car manufacturers had a complete turn around of their design philosophies.

 

[KB1OKL]

I will change one word in your post:

but I also know that ANALOG could blow Satrad out of the water if the programming is diverse enough.

Your sentence with that one word change points out what most people (except for the IBOCers) have been saying all along: it's the content, there's nothing wrong with the delivery system, it is what is being delivered most of the time that sucks. That's like trying to blame the Post Office because all it delivers is bills.
HD does nothing for radio besides add noise, cover adjacents, cut the range severely and add artificial highs. There is NOTHING wrong with the sound of a good analog radio, in fact they sound better and are not artificially recreating sound like digital sound does. AM IBOC is a complete waste of time and money, FM is not much better. They are intrusions into an already fine working system meant to make money nothing else, there is not one real advantage to IBOC unless you live in a city like NY where you are in line of sight of the towers whether anyone here cares to admit it or not, even then the sound is artificial sounding which to me is a negative. I don't like saccharine in my coffee and don't like IBOC in my radio. Some people just like gadgets with little lights I guess.
HD was lost in the audio jungle before it stepped foot on the first piece of grass.

Bob, I just don't see that the diversity you like is possible in the 25 channel universe. You have to get up to around 50 or so to be able to get some of that "SatRad Diversity". Heck, even Analog Smooth Jazz is dying on the vine around the country it would seem.

As a programmer, supporting the sales department, I would rather be the number 2 Classic Hits station than a lot of what satrad offers. COMMERCIALLY, I'm going to need to get fairly far down the food chain to get some of those really interesting formats. 50's-60's oldies don't fly in the 25 stations universe. No digital for subchannels - No diversity.

As I see it, It's economics.

Clouseau

I'm not talking diversity as far as having 50 stations to pick from of course as HD would supposedly let us have, I'm talking much more available tunes on one station, and perhaps even letting the DJ pick some of their own tunes such as WBCN Boston used to do in the 70's on, the DJ's even used to read most of the ads themselves which made it interesting. The DJ's inject humanness into radio. My local WZLX 100.7, which I have mentioned many times here has very good DJ's and they play decent music but for example when they actually take a caller on the air, the caller can only name the artist that they want to hear instead of specific songs. They will rotate the same three songs by say The Allman Bros for months, it gets to where the DJ says next up will be the Allman Bros. and usually you already know what they're going to play. It didn't used to be like that, The Allman Bros have a huge catalogue and I know they were never all played as of course the quality varies, but why can't they pick different songs instead of Ramblin' Man or Whipping Post for ex? Now I don't ever really get tired of those two songs but I bet a lot of people do. There are so many more ways to make radio more interesting than it is now. IMHO WZLX is by far the best classic rock station here in central MA but I still get tired of it. (Radios with a boob job don't help either).
Another very annoying thing in radio is the 5 minute ad block, that is when they lose me, I'd rather hear three songs and then an ad as they used to do than a boring 5 minute block of ads followed by what, 15-20 minutes of music with no DJ talking? The DJ's are what used to make radio interesting along with the variety. The DJ's on WZLX are interesting but everything is just so.. programmed it's boring.
I remember Marc Parenteau playing a record on the wrong speed one day on WBCN during the 70's, stopping the record explaining that it was these new little records that were the cause, went on and on, he corrected the speed played the rest of the record and promptly did the same thing with the next record with no explanation for that one, haha! You don't hear the humanness in radio anymore, it's all so well oiled, it's just the same all the time. DJ's like that were your buddies because they had the freedom to talk, I looked forward to listening to Marc, Charles Laquidera, Ken Shelton etc. I felt like I knew all these guys becauser they had enough time to blab. I was very loyal to this station and couldn't wait to turn it on, it was the first thing I did when I got home or got in my car. I miss that in radio probably more than the freer programming.

 

[Kelly]

This could be interesting... If the commission forces HD radios into car radios as part of the XM-Sirius merger, then one could assume that the sat-rad guys will be also technically paying for the HD radio chips, (and Ibquity license fees) so the satellite tuners will remain in the new cars. If I were one of the satellite guys, I wouldn't be happy.

One thing is for sure, if the commission forces this requirement, expect to hear many more AM and FM HD stations pop onto the air over the next two years. With a forced big-3 auto adoption, the whole HD landscape will change 180 degrees from where it is today.

Those of you running AM stations had better start looking at broad-banding your antenna systems, or be prepared to put them on the market!

 

[Savage]

Ummmm....this thread is about how car manufacturers have OPPOSED the HD/satrad mandate, which is hardly a positive indicator for the proposal, n'est-ce pas?

I'm missing something here. Supposing HD were actually FCC-mandated for car radios - as we must assent that indicators seem to point otherwise - how would that inexorably lead to "many more HD stations pop(ping) onto the air" in two years?

The biggest problems facing HD are spotty reception, interference, and most listeners don't hear enough of a difference between analog FM and HD-FM to think IBOC is worthwhile. (See this week's RW about this precise issue, comparing HD Radio with HDTV in terms of consumer perception.) Even if HD were forced into car radios I would bet most listening would remain analog, because of its more reliable reception, for the forseeable future. So it's hard to see why "many more" operators would bother with HD (the major problem with adoption of the system thus far.)

How would yet another brute-force attempt to impose HD on the market change any of this?

 

[KB1OKL]

This could be interesting... If the commission forces HD radios into car radios as part of the XM-Sirius merger, then one could assume that the sat-rad guys will be also technically paying for the HD radio chips, (and Ibquity license fees) so the satellite tuners will remain in the new cars. If I were one of the satellite guys, I wouldn't be happy.

One thing is for sure, if the commission forces this requirement, expect to hear many more AM and FM HD stations pop onto the air over the next two years. With a forced big-3 auto adoption, the whole HD landscape will change 180 degrees from where it is today.

Those of you running AM stations had better start looking at broad-banding your antenna systems, or be prepared to put them on the market!

I guess you haven't seen the newest thread here: FCC Turns Down C3SR & NAB Requests. Case Closed!

 

[Kelly]

Ummmm....this thread is about how car manufacturers have OPPOSED the HD/satrad mandate, which is hardly a positive indicator for the proposal, n'est-ce pas?

I'm missing something here. Supposing HD were actually FCC-mandated for car radios - as we must assent that indicators seem to point otherwise - how would that inexorably lead to "many more HD stations pop(ping) onto the air" in two years?

The biggest problems facing HD are spotty reception, interference, and most listeners don't hear enough of a difference between analog FM and HD-FM to think IBOC is worthwhile. (See this week's RW about this precise issue, comparing HD Radio with HDTV in terms of consumer perception.) Even if HD were forced into car radios I would bet most listening would remain analog, because of its more reliable reception, for the forseeable future. So it's hard to see why "many more" operators would bother with HD (the major problem with adoption of the system thus far.)

How would yet another brute-force attempt to impose HD on the market change any of this?

In my mind it's simple. (I know I'm setting myself up with that comment, but need to lob one up for you guys on occasion). If you talk with most group station owners, whether they were original investors or proponents of the whole HD thing, or not, the major hurdle is implementation by the big three or four automakers. As I think we can agree, with few exceptions, radio is a mobile media, ie, cars. If the commission requires automakers to equip car radios that also have satellite radio receivers, then expect the automakers to do so albeit under protest. Since GM is a shareholder in XM, and Delphi (Ford), in Sirius, then they will have no choice but to comply.

So then lets now suppose, just for arguments sake, that unlike AM stereo, all the new factory-equipped car radios have IBOC reception capabilities. FM Broadcasters now have the ability to use the ancillary channels for additional programming, and AM broadcasters get some increased quality. Now I completely agree with you Savage, (can't believe I'm saying that), the average comsumer can care less whether their radio is receiving music or talk via digital stream or analog.. BUT, if there is any movement toward stations being able to monetize alternate programming via alternate channels, then of course stations will follow the money, no matter what the market size. Heck Savage, you're a station owner, if the FCC allows you to program an alternate programming source on your AM station digital channel, wouldn't you? Especially if say even 10% of the cars in your listening area could hear HD radio? Or let's say WROC is able to put an alternate music channel in IBOC, and keep their talk on analog. Wouldn't that put more pressure on market sales and your station to do the same? It would be like a bunch of new stations coming on line.

As far as your comment about spotty reception and poor coverage, like anything else, technology evolves. I've seen it myself with DTV receivers. There were TV broadcast groups like Sinclair that swore up and down that ATSC modulation was inferior to COFDM, and that 8VSB would never work. The differences in receiver performance since I was involved in the original 8VSB tests back in 1998 verses today are like night and day. I suspect IBOC will be the same over time.

 

[Savage]

Well, Kelly, "it must be in the water on this website" because I also agree with you about technology over time. (Can't believe I'm typing THAT.) Setting aside my personal conviction that there just isn't enough bandwidth in 200 kHz FM channels and 10 khz AM channels to accomodate a quality hybrid analog/digital-multicast system for the forseeable future - there is a bigger problem.

Perhaps IBOC tech will evolve over time, but radio doesn't have the luxury of time. Listening habits are quickly evolving. The only form of radio which is on the march is web radio, as we note interoperable car electronics are about to include....ahem.....ubiquitous internet services. And, unlike HD, internet in the car is a tech that consumers truly want.

Radio - good ol' AM and FM - needs to get back to what made it a mainstay of American life for two generations. And that is: locally-developed formats featuring memorable, likeable, one-on-one personalities and quality mass-appeal programming. In other words, offering something XM, Sirius and iPods can't. It has been repeatedly observed, even by the NAB, that listener objections to today's radio do NOT include "sound quality." Listeners hate the content-free, repetitive, bland McFormats. As long as radio execs think a good radio station consists of fourteen in a row, "getting you back to the music sooner" angry-voice liner guys and zero service elements.....well, they're gonna stay stuck right where they are today. Today's radio industry leaders led us into the morass we currently face. And typically, they are looking for instant gratification: a new TECHNICAL FIX for allllll their problems. (If only it were that easy!)

One thing we do know: a flashy-flashy LED-studded box out at the transmitter generating some RF ratatouille of digital and analog is NOT what's needed. Even if it works well. Which yours truly, and thousands like me, say it does not.