Awesome Groundwaves 10000 Watts Or Less

[charlestondxman]

WHP Harrisburg at 580. What a signal for 5kw. It goes past the Radio-locator fringe. I was listening to it at Pt. Pleasant, close to the beach the last two days. It may have been WTAG, but it was probably WHP.

WHP even comes in in northern VA, along with most areas of eastern PA, MD, and northern DE.

 

[ddsparxx]

In northern VA, WHP sounds like it's almost local during the daytime.

 

[RadioDaze]

Best groundwave I know of on the mid-Atlantic coast is WGOP 540 in Pocomoke City, MD near the Atlantic coast. Wiith only 500 watts days, I can hear this station (signal a bit listenable) here in Manassas. VA especially when the Pittsburgh area 540 is off the air. The distance between Manassas and Pocomoke City is 115 miles. WGOP's signal travel accross the Chesapeake Bay and further inland where the ground conductivity is poor.

WGOP comes in pretty well in the Hampton Roads area at the south end of the bay as well. Picked them up once crossing the James River Bridge between Newport News and Isle of Wight County.

Durham, North Carolina's WDNC, which enjoys a prime spot on the low end of the dial (620 kHz) and 5,000 watts of power--directional daytime, with nulls protecting WMAL/Washington (630 kHz) and WFNZ, Charlotte (610 kHz) --really gets out. They're heard along the North Carolina coast (not in Wilmington well, due to WMFD on 630 kHz), even on Cape Hatteras, and in Hampton Roads (very listenable down I-64 through Hampton).

My old station, WRJD (1410 kHz), is another Durham 5,000-watter during the day that has a sharp pattern to the southeast, which provides stellar coverage all the way to Wilmington, NC. I've even heard their nighttime signal, 290 watts (at least it was supposed to be) on the same pattern, along the Crystal Coast.

 

[schmave]

Great topic! In the Ohio valley, the 5000 watt daytime crown probably rests with WTVN 610 Columbus,OH. On a good car radio during the day, driving west on I-70 there's a relatively small area in central Illinois where WTVN finally dies and KCSP Kansas City picks up. When you consider that WTVN doesn't miss Pittsburgh by much to the east & who knows how far west KCSP carries, those two stations combined cover quite a chunk of America during the day.

Truth, and a better testament to the stark contrast in ground conductivity you might not find. Pittsburgh is less than 200 miles to our east, yet 610 doesn't make it there. Go 250-300 miles to our west, into northwest Indiana and central Illinois, and 610's still there (albeit barely).

 

[davideduardo]

That Santa Barbara-to-San Diego path tfciwings talks about is a good one, indeed. I have relatives in Solana Beach, and I can regularly hear the Santa Barbara 1250 and 1340 down at the beach there, too.

I was always fascinated by the daytime reception near the shore at Guánica, Puerto Rico. A number of times I took a smaller receiver like one of the ICOMs there. The entire dial, except for a couple of strong locals (like 1510 when it was on, and 1550 and 1130) and a couple of Mayaguez and Ponce stations, the dial was full of Venezuelans. Since the salt water path to the coastal ones is about 500 miles, that's rather impressive, particularly for the ones that were 1 kw to 10 kw above 1200. But more interesting were ones like, IIRC, the 1370 in Ocumare del Tuy over 60 miles inland (now moved to 1030 while 1370 became a Caracas station) and similar catches from Barquisimeto, Maracay, and other inland locations not on the coast.

A couple of the Maicao Peninsula Colombians also were very easy catches, even on a car radio parked at the shore.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

Great topic! In the Ohio valley, the 5000 watt daytime crown probably rests with WTVN 610 Columbus,OH. On a good car radio during the day, driving west on I-70 there's a relatively small area in central Illinois where WTVN finally dies and KCSP Kansas City picks up. When you consider that WTVN doesn't miss Pittsburgh by much to the east & who knows how far west KCSP carries, those two stations combined cover quite a chunk of America during the day.

Truth, and a better testament to the stark contrast in ground conductivity you might not find. Pittsburgh is less than 200 miles to our east, yet 610 doesn't make it there. Go 250-300 miles to our west, into northwest Indiana and central Illinois, and 610's still there (albeit barely).

If you look on Radio Locator, there is a huge 0.5 mV/m overlap between WTVN 610 and WSOM 600. So unless the measured conductivity is much less than M-3, I don't know how WSOM was allowed. Does anyone know the story? I'm sure that WSOM was allowed to RECEIVE interference as the only local service to Salem, Ohio, at least at the time. But it also causes overlap to WTVN using M-3 condctivities.

 

[gar hi]

WHP Harrisburg at 580. What a signal for 5kw. It goes past the Radio-locator fringe. I was listening to it at Pt. Pleasant, close to the beach the last two days. It may have been WTAG, but it was probably WHP.

While you were at the beach, did you listen for any stations from across the salt water?

If I had the opportunity to be at the Jersey shore again, I'd try to null out WFIL and see if there's any trace of WQAM. I'd guess you'd probably at least hear the station on 560 from North Carolina but it would be interesting to see if WQAM was anywhere in the background.

There have been reports of how far WQAM gets out. I don't know if their transmitter is still on Biscayne Bay but apparently, that was a factor too.

 

[OhioMediaWatch]

Not far from WSOM, the champ around here would have to be WKBN/570 Youngstown. It gets out.

 

[gar hi]

I just found out something interesting.

I remember cd637299 mentioning he could hear WQAM during the day in Bermuda, though it was weak. That's a great catch, BTW. More than 1000 miles.

That's the same distance from Miami as Seaside Heights, New Jersey!

Also, it looks like WQAM's stick is one an island out in Biscayne Bay.

So depending on the amount of interference from WFIL or WGAI, WQAM could be heard daytime at the Jersey shore.

It should have a signal present there anyway.

 

[charlestondxman]

I actually was a couple miles away from the actual beach, but I was along Manasquan Inlet. If I had been at the beach, I would have had a chance.

WBZ was in each day, along with 630 and 790 AM out of Providence. I couldn't tell any station under it. I was trying for 690 out of Jacksonville, but there were two closer stations, Phoenixville, PA and Ansonia, CT that nulled it out. 600 from Bridgeport was strong.

I tried for WBAL and a couple others but nothing came in.

Also, on 570 you had the strong WMCA New York. Back in Charleston, in my car several miles from the beach, I can get a mix of WQAM and WVOC.

I haven't been to Folly Beach this year so far, but when I go I plan to bring my radio and see what I can get.

Next time I am at Point Pleasant, I will definitely try to null it out.

 

[pianoplayer88key]

There have been reports of how far WQAM gets out. I don't know if their transmitter is still on Biscayne Bay but apparently, that was a factor too.

http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg24697.html

If WQAM can get out that far, I wonder how far east WFAN would go? Also if a station running 50kW or more (highest power transmitter I'm aware of that exists is 2.5MW) used a Franklin antenna on 540 kHz (or longwave 153 kHz) and was right on the beach, is there any possibility its signal could be detected on the other side of the Atlantic or even the Pacific?

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

Once you get past 600 miles or so, the groundwave starts to fall off really fast no matter what the inverse field is, or the conductivity. Many times when people think they have groundwave at very large distances, it's actually daytime skywave. There's a principle called the law of diminishing returns that covers just about everything under the sun. Frequency, conductivity, effieciency, and other factors only carry you so far.

Note that on FCC Groundwave Graph 1, for 540-560 kHz, at about 1250 miles over sea water the field for the 100 mV/m inverse field at 1 km is about 0.1 microvolts per meter. With a 5000 mV/m inverse field in that direction, somewhere in the 250 kW ERP range, the groundwave would be only 5 uV/m.

Oh, BTW, I asked about your Stoddart NM-20, tfcwings. It might be OK for your research, but it should probably be professionally serviced and calibrated.

 

[pianoplayer88key]

Once you get past 600 miles or so, the groundwave starts to fall off really fast no matter what the inverse field is, or the conductivity. Many times when people think they have groundwave at very large distances, it's actually daytime skywave. There's a principle called the law of diminishing returns that covers just about everything under the sun. Frequency, conductivity, effieciency, and other factors only carry you so far.

Note that on FCC Groundwave Graph 1, for 540-560 kHz, at about 1250 miles over sea water the field for the 100 mV/m inverse field at 1 km is about 0.1 microvolts per meter. With a 5000 mV/m inverse field in that direction, somewhere in the 250 kW ERP range, the groundwave would be only 5 uV/m.

Oh, BTW, I asked about your Stoddart NM-20, tfcwings. It might be OK for your research, but it should probably be professionally serviced and calibrated.

So what would be a way to ENSURE that you are NOT receiving ANY skywave whatsoever?
For example, let's say your receive setup is capable of detecting PSK5 or QRSS CW signals as weak as 0.01 µV/m. Now, let's take a theoretical skywave signal whose field, right before it reaches the approximate lower boundary of the D layer (at the right angle to beam its bounce directly toward you), is upwards of 10,000 mV/m on, say, 1600 kHz. Are there times of the day and year (at latitudes between 30° and 50° N for example) when D-layer attenuation is great enough so that that signal would be TOTALLY undetectable with that equipment (assuming it would be a solid nighttime signal)? Or is there only so much the D-layer can do?

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

My experience in the last few years is that there may be skywave of some intensity, perhaps very low, much of the time. Just like there is E skip and even F layer skip going on, statistically speaking, much of the time, even into the low VHF TV range. It's just of very low intensity at minimum. At AM Broadcast frequencies, you can tell by a cyclic variation in the field strength of the assumed groundwave. If the skywave is 10% of the groundwave, the field strength will vary from 90% to 110% of the mean value as the phase of the skywave compared to the groundwave changes.

 

[gar hi]

My brother lives in Hawaii near Hilo and a while back, I asked him if he could hear KSFO, KFI, or KNBR at the beach there during the day.

He got the chance to go to one of the beaches on the south side of the big island. He listened and said he couldn't hear anything.

He was using a Grundig G5 but no loop was involved. I don't know how big the internal ferrite antenna of that radio is but I wonder if using a radio like my Sangean PR-D5 (which has a 200 mm ferrite antenna) and the Terk AM Loop that I also use would have made a difference.

Once you get past 600 miles or so, the groundwave starts to fall off really fast no matter what the inverse field is, or the conductivity. Many times when people think they have groundwave at very large distances, it's actually daytime skywave.

I doubt that's the case in June in Bermuda where WQAM and other Miami stations are heard midday. That's 1040 miles.
I've heard cd's recordings of the big New York stations from there too and they had good listenable signals at 775 miles.

 

[radioman148]

My brother lives in Hawaii near Hilo and a while back, I asked him if he could hear KSFO, KFI, or KNBR at the beach there during the day.

He got the chance to go to one of the beaches on the south side of the big island. He listened and said he couldn't hear anything.

He was using a Grundig G5 but no loop was involved. I don't know how big the internal ferrite antenna of that radio is but I wonder if using a radio like my Sangean PR-D5 (which has a 200 mm ferrite antenna) and the Terk AM Loop that I also use would have made a difference.

Once you get past 600 miles or so, the groundwave starts to fall off really fast no matter what the inverse field is, or the conductivity. Many times when people think they have groundwave at very large distances, it's actually daytime skywave.

I doubt that's the case in June in Bermuda where WQAM and other Miami stations are heard midday. That's 1040 miles.
I've heard cd's recordings of the big New York stations from there too and they had good listenable signals at 775 miles.

Getting MW groundwave signals from the west coast to Hawaii would seem almost impossible to me. I would have to see absolute indisputable evidence to be convinced that this could happen.

 

[gar hi]

Yeah, it seems more and more the range for any AM signal on a saltwater path is somewhere between 1000 and 2000 miles. (though I doubt not that close to 2000 miles)

We at least know it can pass the 1000 mile mark.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

From Graph 1, 540-560 kHz. 1040 miles=1674 kilometers. From FCC database, WQAM daytime inverse field is 664.1 mV/m @ 1 km. At 1674 km, the reference field for 100 mV/m inverse field over 5000 mS/m is .00055 mV/m. Predicted field would be .003653 mV/m or 3.653 uV/m. Without a longwire or Beverage antenna, I doubt if you could hear a signal of that low intensity. Even with 50 kW, it would only be 11.5 uV/m. I say it's skywave, especially if you're hearing it on a Grundig, Panasonic RF-2200 or simlar radio without an external antenna.

 

[vibe]

If 600 mi is theoretical max over salt water, does this explain a near city grade signal for gar in Tampa (well at the beach and a very listenable WWL for me in Englewood FL about 2-3 mi inland during midday w no skywave.
I think I've bagged the religious Corpus Christ 1030 from Englewood during the day several times but the station faded out (before a formal ID) in favor of a more local (Orlando?). But the programming doesn't float my boat so I only take shots occasionally (and only on an empty stomach).

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

Here's an example for WFAN, assuming that the entire path is along sea water. At 1000 km, about 621 miles, the reference field is 0.007 mV/m. WFAN inverse field is 2685.7 mV/m @ 1 km. Field would be 188 uV/m, which would be possible without an external antenna on an RF-2200.