Im not from Pittsburgh but was just looking at the ratings. Would B 94 do much better if Star 100.7 wasn't around? I would think yes as both share a bunch of songs you will hear on both stations. I listen to B 94 online sometimes along with other CBS pop stations. Maybe CBS should take Star and make it a AC to help B 94 out. I doubt they would want to take B 94 and remove the pop and rock and have it sounding like one of the new CBS pop stations AMP and NOW. But maybe that would help. But those are different markets and I am sure CBS didn't want NOW to hurt FRESH. What do you guys from Pitt think?
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B 94 / Star 100.7
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B
Bbabybear02
Guest
Ken said:
I Agree Ken Star needs to go into a different format. I really Think CBS Needs to try Rock/Metal on 100.7. WXDX and WDVE are Very Dull.
I'm just repeating an old theme here, but I felt CBS royally screwed up K-Rock.
When it first went on the air with Howard Stern, K-Rock did well. It got better numbers than B-94 did and had a better playlist. I remember hearing Ratt's "Round and Round" and wondering why WDVE never played that song.
Furthermore, K-Rock gave a damn. I mentioned once when Aerosmith and Motley Crue played Star Lake in 2006 I went to the show and heard WDVE- which was playing The Clarks and running tired comedy bits- then switched to K-Rock, which gave a damn- playing Aerosmith and Crue songs to get the crowd riled up going to the show and taking calls about it coming out.
Side note- When I mentioned this a poster chastised me, saying this was irrelevant since on a Saturday night advertising revenue would be nil.
One wonders what this poster thinks of stations that broadcast 24-hours-a-day, but regardless. It was perhaps the most telling example of the mindset that prohibits creativity on our airwaves today.
And perhaps that mindset is why CBS won't go back to a rock format. They somehow thought K-Rock needed a bunch of really bad talk shows during some of their most listened to times and never really recovered from the David Lee Roth fiasco. I believe all of CBS' K-Rock stations have changed formats since then.
Sad. It could work so easily!
When it first went on the air with Howard Stern, K-Rock did well. It got better numbers than B-94 did and had a better playlist. I remember hearing Ratt's "Round and Round" and wondering why WDVE never played that song.
Furthermore, K-Rock gave a damn. I mentioned once when Aerosmith and Motley Crue played Star Lake in 2006 I went to the show and heard WDVE- which was playing The Clarks and running tired comedy bits- then switched to K-Rock, which gave a damn- playing Aerosmith and Crue songs to get the crowd riled up going to the show and taking calls about it coming out.
Side note- When I mentioned this a poster chastised me, saying this was irrelevant since on a Saturday night advertising revenue would be nil.
One wonders what this poster thinks of stations that broadcast 24-hours-a-day, but regardless. It was perhaps the most telling example of the mindset that prohibits creativity on our airwaves today.
And perhaps that mindset is why CBS won't go back to a rock format. They somehow thought K-Rock needed a bunch of really bad talk shows during some of their most listened to times and never really recovered from the David Lee Roth fiasco. I believe all of CBS' K-Rock stations have changed formats since then.
Sad. It could work so easily!
Several thoughts:
Before I get to P4L's comments, I always enjoy the posts that go something like this. (Insert station name here) needs to change format. They should play (insert your favorite type of music here). There was one guy who only ever posted that stations should flip to urban.
While Pratte and others liked K-Rock's music, it was filler. They really didn't care what happened after Howard was done for the day. They just figured that since his core was 25-54 males that rock might hold some percentage of his audience. Any ratings outside of AM drive were an accident.
Free FM (which was The Buzz here) and the David Lee Roth show will go down as the worst ideas in the history of radio. I have a good friend who is in management for CBS in a Top-5 market. He said that after they heard the presentation from the top brass about Free FM their reaction was "WHAT?...."
Rock radio isn't growing, in ratings or revenue. Stations that used to be powerhouses like 98 Rock in Tampa are lucky to break 2-shares 12+ (although they do OK with 18-34 males). Classic rock is even more dead. In both cases, if you can get a morning show that will drive the rest of the day a rock format will do well. Cox brought Bubba the Love Sponge back to terrestrial radio in Tampa and the station went from a perennial 2-share to top 5 in the market and great 25-54's (and yes, he used to do mornings on 98 Rock).
But just putting a music format together won't draw that audience anymore. Too much competition from iTunes and satellite.
Before I get to P4L's comments, I always enjoy the posts that go something like this. (Insert station name here) needs to change format. They should play (insert your favorite type of music here). There was one guy who only ever posted that stations should flip to urban.
While Pratte and others liked K-Rock's music, it was filler. They really didn't care what happened after Howard was done for the day. They just figured that since his core was 25-54 males that rock might hold some percentage of his audience. Any ratings outside of AM drive were an accident.
Free FM (which was The Buzz here) and the David Lee Roth show will go down as the worst ideas in the history of radio. I have a good friend who is in management for CBS in a Top-5 market. He said that after they heard the presentation from the top brass about Free FM their reaction was "WHAT?...."
Rock radio isn't growing, in ratings or revenue. Stations that used to be powerhouses like 98 Rock in Tampa are lucky to break 2-shares 12+ (although they do OK with 18-34 males). Classic rock is even more dead. In both cases, if you can get a morning show that will drive the rest of the day a rock format will do well. Cox brought Bubba the Love Sponge back to terrestrial radio in Tampa and the station went from a perennial 2-share to top 5 in the market and great 25-54's (and yes, he used to do mornings on 98 Rock).
But just putting a music format together won't draw that audience anymore. Too much competition from iTunes and satellite.
Let me go with your premise that rock radio is not doing well.
Which I can see. I have stated that Nirvana was the worst thing ever to happen to rock and the genre has since declined. Rock went from music to get laid by to music to hang yourself to.
But here's where I think locally, that idea may be flawed.
Pittsburgh is a rock and roll town. I dont think there's any question to this.
Nationally, maybe not. I wouldn't want to break a new rock radio station in Miami, for instance. And yes, in great rock cities like NYC and LA, demographics are changing, hence when I was in LA a couple of years ago I couldn't even find a decent rock station on my car radio.
Pittsburgh is different, though.
I believe there is an audience for another rock radio station. Remember with K-Rock, half the time it was not a rock station. Every time I was in my car I would hear either Loveline or that awful Kid Chris/Chris Kidd fiasco.
I just wanted to hear some AC/DC, guys.
Nowadays, I feel The X struggles for the same reasons. What is Mark Madden? A DJ? A sports talk show host? If I'm a 17-year-old girl coming home from school I HAVE NO ROCK OPTIONS!
This may be an example of suits from out of town trying to tell us what works in Peoria will work in Pittsburgh when it doesn't.
Which I can see. I have stated that Nirvana was the worst thing ever to happen to rock and the genre has since declined. Rock went from music to get laid by to music to hang yourself to.
But here's where I think locally, that idea may be flawed.
Pittsburgh is a rock and roll town. I dont think there's any question to this.
Nationally, maybe not. I wouldn't want to break a new rock radio station in Miami, for instance. And yes, in great rock cities like NYC and LA, demographics are changing, hence when I was in LA a couple of years ago I couldn't even find a decent rock station on my car radio.
Pittsburgh is different, though.
I believe there is an audience for another rock radio station. Remember with K-Rock, half the time it was not a rock station. Every time I was in my car I would hear either Loveline or that awful Kid Chris/Chris Kidd fiasco.
I just wanted to hear some AC/DC, guys.
Nowadays, I feel The X struggles for the same reasons. What is Mark Madden? A DJ? A sports talk show host? If I'm a 17-year-old girl coming home from school I HAVE NO ROCK OPTIONS!
This may be an example of suits from out of town trying to tell us what works in Peoria will work in Pittsburgh when it doesn't.
M
MsMusicRadio
Guest
It's rough being a seventeen year old girl with no rock options. When I was seventeen, it was a very good year and all I had was KQV, KDKA after 3PM ,WEEP for joy, and Porky. No rock options, but I survived that severe deprivation. Of course back then, we didn't know what deprivation meant. My laptop was useless because there was no internet. I always wondered why I bought the thing in Kauffman's basement.
M
MsMusicRadio
Guest
Exactly, when my daughter was growing up in Richmond, it was only Q94 or Power 92. No rock at all. In Pittsburgh, she preferred B94 or WAMO . Finally it was just WAMO. Now she is 33 and she prefers MIX or MAGIC in Tampa. I never listened to any rock stations of any kind. In Pittsburgh, I prefer WJAS or WDUV in Tampa. Can somebody pass the Metamucil?
But you folks do understand there are young women who like to listen to rock?
I am not the least surprised your daughter would rather listen to WAMO, Part. Her two local options would be WDVE, which she would be about 12 years too young for, or The X, which seems to want to drive off every potential female listener in Pittsburgh.
Getting a 17-year-old girl to listen to local rock radio would be like trying to get her to listen to the low watt AM because it has the best community news.
And that's why I would suggest another rock radio station in Pittsburgh is in order.
I am not the least surprised your daughter would rather listen to WAMO, Part. Her two local options would be WDVE, which she would be about 12 years too young for, or The X, which seems to want to drive off every potential female listener in Pittsburgh.
Getting a 17-year-old girl to listen to local rock radio would be like trying to get her to listen to the low watt AM because it has the best community news.
And that's why I would suggest another rock radio station in Pittsburgh is in order.
M
MsMusicRadio
Guest
Does WAMO ever get any credit for maintaining the same format for the most part since the Fifties. The music changed and AM went to FM, but it still was essentially the same. When does it become legendary? Back to Rock.
Pratte4Life said:
Not enough to make them a target audience. Beyond that, it's too out-of-the-box for the advertisers chasing that demo. You would NEVER get an agency buy for young women on a rock format, and frankly I don't think you could find a rock station anywhere in the US that has significant female 18-34's. Classic rock does have 25-54 women, especially stations like DVE, but current rock based formats draw 18-34 males and that's it.
Beyond that, they don't depend on the radio for music. Most of what they listen to is online (and to be totally honest I'm not sure what the source is, I think it is connected to MySpace.) Formats like Jammin' Oldies and Movin' are based on volumes of research that prove over and over again that the great majority of women prefer rhythmic music.
And having said all of that, Pittsburgh has a "rock station for women." It's called Star 100.7. The 12+ numbers are such that everyone on this board is constantly calling for it to flip formats. (Those posters are almost always male and not the target audience, and as I've discussed before the primary pastime on these boards is to pick out a station you don't listen to because you don't like that kind of music, and announce that they should flip to whatever it is that you do like.) Star's numbers are almost 100% women under 44. They do good business.
More along the lines of what you propose is a station CC had on the air for a few years in Tampa, which was also called Star (95.7). It was a female leaning alternative station, no screaming guitars and cookie-monster vocals, no "Down With The Sickness" or "Crazy Bi***", probably the prototype songs were Fiona Apple's "Criminal", or songs like "Semi-Charmed Life." It didn't play the CHR songs that Pittsburgh's Star plays, but would overlap it too much to coexist with it. What it also would not do is draw any young male listeners, but it did OK with 25-54's. In fact, in Tampa CC also has a Mix station, and it ended up blowing up Star in favor of an Urban (although almost everyone will tell you that between Star and Mix, they blew up the wrong station).
But anyway, in pure black and white terms, yes, there are young women who like rock. But there are not nearly enough of them to be a factor in adding another rock station.
And one more thing... you're not at all off base that there's a hole for a current-based, hard edged rock station. The X leaves a gaping hole for that. But it's going to be about 18-34 males, period.
Part- All due respect to your daughters' listening tastes- you are aware of the stereotypes of young women listening to rock?
We could be talking about women screaming at Elvis as he wings his hips or The Beatles or the conquests of Motley Crue or Kiss or Poison.
This is traditionally a large "demographic" and I can't believe it went out with Dave Navarro and Carmen Electra. I don't believe YOU think it went out with them, either.
My main point was not necessarily a "rock station for women" but rather a "rock station that won't drive away women."
Final thought- I also agree with you about youth getting their music from other outlets than the radio. Heck, in the '80s I got my music from MTV (as hard as that might be to believe now).
But you have to make the decision as to what to download on your Ipod. There are so many options on satellite radio that something from the outside has to influence your decision as to what channel to choose.
Maybe that's the radio and the songs you like to wait for on a CHR station. Maybe that's your circle of friends. Maybe that's another culture- if you're a hockey player I'd bet the odds are better you'd listen to rock than if you were a basketball player. If you live in Waynesburg I would say there's a better chance of you listening to country than if you live in Braddock.
But it probably won't be rock if your local modern rock station is doing just about everything they can to drive women away.
We could be talking about women screaming at Elvis as he wings his hips or The Beatles or the conquests of Motley Crue or Kiss or Poison.
This is traditionally a large "demographic" and I can't believe it went out with Dave Navarro and Carmen Electra. I don't believe YOU think it went out with them, either.
My main point was not necessarily a "rock station for women" but rather a "rock station that won't drive away women."
Final thought- I also agree with you about youth getting their music from other outlets than the radio. Heck, in the '80s I got my music from MTV (as hard as that might be to believe now).
But you have to make the decision as to what to download on your Ipod. There are so many options on satellite radio that something from the outside has to influence your decision as to what channel to choose.
Maybe that's the radio and the songs you like to wait for on a CHR station. Maybe that's your circle of friends. Maybe that's another culture- if you're a hockey player I'd bet the odds are better you'd listen to rock than if you were a basketball player. If you live in Waynesburg I would say there's a better chance of you listening to country than if you live in Braddock.
But it probably won't be rock if your local modern rock station is doing just about everything they can to drive women away.
They want to superserve their core audience.... young males. That's the only demo they are selling. Anything else they get is gravy.
Backing off of your core audience to MAYBE get another fringe demo that probably would not amount to anything sellable just doesn't seem like a good business strategy.
Backing off of your core audience to MAYBE get another fringe demo that probably would not amount to anything sellable just doesn't seem like a good business strategy.
Exactly. That's the way the business works. WSHH will take a 22-year-old male listener, of course, but that isn't who they're geared to attract and it isn't part of their sales strategy.
But this isn't sports talk radio!
Who was it that determined young women don't listen to rock? That's insanity and poor business practice.
Who was it that determined young women don't listen to rock? That's insanity and poor business practice.
I believe The X would have more of an audience and more ad revenue if they saw their format as something that could attract both genders- because for the entire history of the genre it has done so.
This isn't soft rock or sports talk.
This isn't soft rock or sports talk.
A few things here.... (if I understand your grammar correctly).... you feel that alternative HAS drawn female listeners? If you can show me some supporting data I defer to your point... however...
The X is sports talk masquerading as a music station. They have chosen to build a station around the Pens for better or worse. CC has an opportunity with one of the most popular franchises in the country and they have built the content to maximize that relationship. The 18-34 MALE numbers helped get them the contract. I guarantee female numbers were a very brief portion of the conversation if they came up at all. I think the only reason they didn't totally flip it to sports is that then CBS would switch either Star or the B to new rock.
Given the revenue stream from the Pens, selling regular spots at night in a music format with maybe a little more in the way of female numbers would probably be revenue neutral at best, if not an outright loss.
CC already has good 18-34 female numbers on Kiss, good 35-54 females on 3WS and 104.7, and unprecedented female numbers for a classic rock station on DVE. How much bigger do you think that pie is? Odds are any numbers they could pull to the X would be coming from one of their own properties, so what's the rationale for it?
The X is sports talk masquerading as a music station. They have chosen to build a station around the Pens for better or worse. CC has an opportunity with one of the most popular franchises in the country and they have built the content to maximize that relationship. The 18-34 MALE numbers helped get them the contract. I guarantee female numbers were a very brief portion of the conversation if they came up at all. I think the only reason they didn't totally flip it to sports is that then CBS would switch either Star or the B to new rock.
Given the revenue stream from the Pens, selling regular spots at night in a music format with maybe a little more in the way of female numbers would probably be revenue neutral at best, if not an outright loss.
CC already has good 18-34 female numbers on Kiss, good 35-54 females on 3WS and 104.7, and unprecedented female numbers for a classic rock station on DVE. How much bigger do you think that pie is? Odds are any numbers they could pull to the X would be coming from one of their own properties, so what's the rationale for it?
Part- I feel that there are lots of women who like rock. Young women. A trip to your local gentleman's club will prove my point.
And I now expect you to give me major kudos for actually giving you the excuse "Just doing research honey! Part of my job! Don't wait up!" to make said trip!
I know the point you're making about The X. I think the format actually fits well with the Pens contract. I would expect it would make more revenue than nighttime music sales.
Here's what I have never liked about radio- though. HALF @SSING.
And as you state, The X is half-@ssing their music format.
My opinion is simply if there was another rock radio station- modern rock, mixture of classic and new- whatever, and they did not half-@ss it- the way K-Rock did, the way The X does now- it would be successful and attract a wide audience.
I'll even give you an idea how it might work for The X. I don't think they'd have to significantly change their talent or the Pens. Women love hockey.
If, theoretically, they could put on a female sidekick for Mark Madden- a Rose Tennent-type who gave as good as she got, for instance- and/or a female co-host with Benz- they wouldn't have to drive away women- they could actually have a higher rated station with more advertising potential.
Do you agree?
And I now expect you to give me major kudos for actually giving you the excuse "Just doing research honey! Part of my job! Don't wait up!" to make said trip!
I know the point you're making about The X. I think the format actually fits well with the Pens contract. I would expect it would make more revenue than nighttime music sales.
Here's what I have never liked about radio- though. HALF @SSING.
And as you state, The X is half-@ssing their music format.
My opinion is simply if there was another rock radio station- modern rock, mixture of classic and new- whatever, and they did not half-@ss it- the way K-Rock did, the way The X does now- it would be successful and attract a wide audience.
I'll even give you an idea how it might work for The X. I don't think they'd have to significantly change their talent or the Pens. Women love hockey.
If, theoretically, they could put on a female sidekick for Mark Madden- a Rose Tennent-type who gave as good as she got, for instance- and/or a female co-host with Benz- they wouldn't have to drive away women- they could actually have a higher rated station with more advertising potential.
Do you agree?
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