Biggest Format Hole in Bay Area Radio???

[casual observer]

DavidKaye makes a very good point about the revenue potential of Oldies stations.

As potent as WCBS-FM is in the New York market, their billing is nowhere near what it was 4-5 years ago. Last year with excellent ratings, they billed $18 million. In 2005, it was closer to $30 million. Granted, today's advertising market isn't what it used to be and that accounts for much of the difference. But in reality, listeners of these stations have an average age well north of 50 making Oldies stations a very tough sales pitch.

Top rankings in 6+ do not always guarantee top revenue. The big dough is in 25-54. And even though stations like WCBS-FM and KRTH rank well in this demo, their top-heavy age makes it difficult to convince many buyers they deserve the lion's share of the buy.

 

[DavidKaye]

Are WCBS, KRTH and WLS going broke? Oh, and there is KLUV/Dallas. Are they going broke? Markets #1, 2, 3 and 5 have the format. Why not #4? This format is the "hole" and good execution should produce a profit.

Are you looking at overall ratings? Overall ratings don't mean a thing. This is KGO's problem. Tell us that these stations are high in specific demos such as males 18 to 34 or females 25 to 49 or whatever and then you may be on to something. But overall number? Meaningless.

 

[e-dawg]

Speaking of WCBS comeback. What went wrong with KFRC come back? Is it the playlist, personality, frequency, and/or signal?

 

[SFStatic]

Freq and signal sure didn't help. When it's clear at the top of the band and the freq was a religious station for years and years, it seems like CBS would have needed to actually spend real money on promotion to drive people there. Would it have done much better if they'd popped it back on 99.7? Absolutely no doubt about it. Would it have been doing better there than Movin is right now...THERE's the million dollar question, and I think CBS just went with what they thought would hit the almighty 25-54 demo the best with that channel.

For my money, the version of KFRC on 106.9 was 10 times better than Scott Shannon's "True Oldies Channel." A trained monkey could program oldies better with a card file box than the presentation that's on 1550 right now. Sorry, it really sucks.

 

[LKellerIII]

Freq and signal sure didn't help. When it's clear at the top of the band and the freq was a religious station for years and years, it seems like CBS would have needed to actually spend real money on promotion to drive people there. Would it have done much better if they'd popped it back on 99.7? Absolutely no doubt about it. Would it have been doing better there than Movin is right now...THERE's the million dollar question, and I think CBS just went with what they thought would hit the almighty 25-54 demo the best with that channel.

For my money, the version of KFRC on 106.9 was 10 times better than Scott Shannon's "True Oldies Channel." A trained monkey could program oldies better with a card file box than the presentation that's on 1550 right now. Sorry, it really sucks.

That's like saying stepping on dog sh*t is 10 times better than stepping on radioactive waste. 106.9 KFRC was a truly inferior Classic Hits station. The play list was OK, but nothing that hadn't been done before. The constant over-use of a just a few pre-recorded liners was annoying. Outside of drive-time, the jocks were only heard once per set for a few seconds - on the talk-up between the third and fourth song...it had the feel of an automated and voice-tracked station. The live afternoon jock (Jay Coffey) was hardly a Bay Area veteran, and he was tolerable at best. I think Dave Sholin is great, but he was miscast as a morning personality. (Props to Celeste Perry, though). The jingles they used were from the old 610, but mostly the bad ones ("Yoooouuuuu...and....KFRC"). I could go on, but why bother...

Would it have done better on 99.7? Probably a little because people had heard Oldies/Classic Hits there for about 12 years. But it still would have sucked.

 

[RadioStarOne]

Fill in the blanks: The Day X-100 Died _________? The Day Oldies 99.7 started ________? The Day Oldies 99.7 Died ________ and MOViN started on ________? How many years was that?

 

[LKellerIII]

Fill in the blanks: The Day X-100 Died _________? The Day Oldies 99.7 started ________? The Day Oldies 99.7 Died ________ and MOViN started on ________? How many years was that?

Uh...not sure what you're asking. I guesstimated 12 years for Oldies/Classic hits on 99.7, but I guess I was off. Like everything else, there's a Wikipedia page. The chronology is:

1978-88...KYUU - about 10 years, first played light rock, then morphed into "the Hit Music Station."

1988-91...KXXX (X-100) ...about 3 years.

March 1991 - September 2006...KFRC - Oldies and later Classic Hits. So iI guess it was 15 1/2 years.

Happy now?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KMVQ-FM

 

[DavidKaye]

Freq and signal sure didn't help. When it's clear at the top of the band and the freq was a religious station for years and years, it seems like CBS would have needed to actually spend real money on promotion to drive people there.

First, 106.9 is a grandfathered 80kw station in a land where the maximum limit has been 50kw for decades. This is a big plus. And CBS spent lots of money promoting KFRC 106.9, so anybody who knows the KFRC brand knew what to expect as a format. I think the fault is that not enough people are interested in listening to it. And why should they? Oldies are available cheaply in all kinds of collections to hear on one's CD player or MP3 player or iPod. I suspect that's what most oldies listeners prefer now.

Would it have done much better if they'd popped it back on 99.7? Absolutely no doubt about it. Would it have been doing better there than Movin is right now...THERE's the million dollar question, and I think CBS just went with what they thought would hit the almighty 25-54 demo the best with that channel.

What makes you think the 25-54 folks want to listen to an oldies station? However, CBS is getting 25-54 now by putting KCBS on 106.9. People in the 25-54 seem to like a no-nonsense newscast. This is also true of the audience of KQED, which skews younger than the flashier KGO.

 

[BossRadioDJ]

Freq and signal sure didn't help. When it's clear at the top of the band...

What does "top of the band" mean in 2009 terms? In 1965, you knew 106.9 was way over on the right side of the dial -- you know, where that little stick thing slides over the numbers before stopping at 108, no matter how hard you twist that nob. (Yes...)

Heck, back in 1965, "106.9" wasn't refered to as "106.9"; it was "107," the same way "99.7" was "100" and "98.9" was "99."

If you stopped Joe I-Don't-Know-Nothin'-About-Radio on the street right now and asked him to tell you how high up the FM band goes, what would he say? I'm guessing the answer would be wrong about 107.9% of the time. The "dial" is just numbers on a screen.

As for signal, it's relative. You may say that 106.9 has a lousy signal. Joe IDKNAR may live a mile from you and get it perfectly. If Joe lives in Belmont, Tiburon, Richmond or Milpitas, his answer could vary greatly.

 

[LKellerIII]

What makes you think the 25-54 folks want to listen to an oldies station? However, CBS is getting 25-54 now by putting KCBS on 106.9. People in the 25-54 seem to like a no-nonsense newscast. This is also true of the audience of KQED, which skews younger than the flashier KGO.

[/quote]

According to the PPM numbers in New York and Los Angeles, a significant number of people still want to hear Oldies/Classic Hits on traditional radio stations. WCBS-FM and KRTH are highly rated overall, and are doing adequately well in the 25-54 demo.

Are you saying people in the Bay Area are different in that regard? Maybe its because we're more affluent, and the proximity to Silicon Valley means we tend to have more electonic gadgets including MP3 players and i-pods.

Or maybe the explanation for the popularity of Classic Hits radio in New York and Los Angeles is that those two stations are well programmed and fun to listen to.

Having said that, I don't argue at all that CBS is getting more bang for their buck with All News on 106.9.

 

[1069_KIFR]

Uh-no.... First Sarah Palin got back into the news, now are you dragging Joe The Plumber back into the spot light also?

Freq and signal sure didn't help. When it's clear at the top of the band...

What does "top of the band" mean in 2009 terms? In 1965, you knew 106.9 was way over on the right side of the dial -- you know, where that little stick thing slides over the numbers before stopping at 108, no matter how hard you twist that nob. (Yes...)

Heck, back in 1965, "106.9" wasn't refered to as "106.9"; it was "107," the same way "99.7" was "100" and "98.9" was "99."

If you stopped Joe I-Don't-Know-Nothin'-About-Radio on the street right now and asked him to tell you how high up the FM band goes, what would he say? I'm guessing the answer would be wrong about 107.9% of the time. The "dial" is just numbers on a screen.

As for signal, it's relative. You may say that 106.9 has a lousy signal. Joe IDKNAR may live a mile from you and get it perfectly. If Joe lives in Belmont, Tiburon, Richmond or Milpitas, his answer could vary greatly.

 

[DavidKaye]

According to the PPM numbers in New York and Los Angeles, a significant number of people still want to hear Oldies/Classic Hits on traditional radio stations. WCBS-FM and KRTH are highly rated overall, and are doing adequately well in the 25-54 demo.

Go back and look at casual observer's comments earlier in this thread. The demos are slipping upward and it's just not considered as good a buy anymore. Again, overall numbers make no difference. It's specific demos that matter. There are few things you can sell to all populations. You're not going to sell R. Kelly's Summer Block Party tickets to baby boomers, and you're probably not going to sell many Mercedes to college age folks. You're not going to sell a lot of Budweiser to women, nor are you likely to sell mattresses to men.

Having said that, I don't argue at all that CBS is getting more bang for their buck with All News on 106.9.

Why do you think that morons program CBS stations? CBS has its stockholders to satisfy, especially Sumner Redstone, who's in debt up to his neck. Major broadcasting companies do not hire idiots to program their stations. 106.9 is saving KCBS.

 

[LKellerIII]

According to the PPM numbers in New York and Los Angeles, a significant number of people still want to hear Oldies/Classic Hits on traditional radio stations. WCBS-FM and KRTH are highly rated overall, and are doing adequately well in the 25-54 demo.

Go back and look at casual observer's comments earlier in this thread. The demos are slipping upward and it's just not considered as good a buy anymore. Again, overall numbers make no difference. It's specific demos that matter. There are few things you can sell to all populations. You're not going to sell R. Kelly's Summer Block Party tickets to baby boomers, and you're probably not going to sell many Mercedes to college age folks. You're not going to sell a lot of Budweiser to women, nor are you likely to sell mattresses to men.

Having said that, I don't argue at all that CBS is getting more bang for their buck with All News on 106.9.

Why do you think that morons program CBS stations? CBS has its stockholders to satisfy, especially Sumner Redstone, who's in debt up to his neck. Major broadcasting companies do not hire idiots to program their stations. 106.9 is saving KCBS.

Uh...if you'll notice, I was agreeing with you about 106.9.

I have to argue with a few other points, though - I have bought a number of mattresses, I never buy Budweiser, and I had a friend in college who drove a Mercedes (old diesel piece of junk). Oh my God...I must be an "outlier."

 

[mikecroaro]

Folks:

I'm probably in the minorty but I miss the "Cumbia" format that was on KLOK a while back. Very festive music.

Mike

 

[musicfan101]

Commercial Indie-rock station? It seems like SF would be the only place where this would work. I mean, with all the hipsters that live there...

 

[weav]

How would that be different from what Live 105 does? Maybe I'm missing what you mean by "indie-rock"...

 

[briancraig]

I disagree that a well programmed classic hits station wouldn't be a big winner and money maker in this market just like KRTH is in L.A. I think part of the problem with KFRC-FM is it was just too white sounding.

The Bay Area has always been diverse and in the old days, KFRC and KYA had a multi ethnic audience which a good classic hits station should still be able to obtain. I remember walking through Chinatown years ago and hearing KFRC in so many of the stores.

KFRC sounded like San Francisco especially in the 1970s and did not sound at all like sister station KHJ because in those days RKO knew how to program to the market. They lasted longer than just about any other top market AM CHR except for maybe WLS.

I don't think you could just clone KRTH and be successful as Northern California is not SoCal, but does anyone seriously think with the right music mix you couldn't make good money in San Francisco playing the greatest hits of all time?

 

[AM FM listener]

I don't think you could just clone KRTH and be successful as Northern California is not SoCal, but does anyone seriously think with the right music mix you couldn't make good money in San Francisco playing the greatest hits of all time?

I totally agree. And, it seems with PPM, Oldies/Classic Hits is doing even better. Yeah, the audience skews older but with proper tweaking of the music, one can still get a reasonable share of the 35-54 audience and make some $.

 

[DavidKaye]

KFRC sounded like San Francisco especially in the 1970s and did not sound at all like sister station KHJ because in those days RKO knew how to program to the market. They lasted longer than just about any other top market AM CHR except for maybe WLS.

But KFRC wasn't an oldies station in its heyday. It was top-40. Today's top-40 is what, KMEL? Well, they're on top of the ratings, so there.

 

[Domino Rippy]

David, KFRC was an Oldies station all during the 90's and it was number one Twice, beating KGO 25 - 54 Today's audience only remembers KFRC as an Oldies station.