Boston AM IBOC AIRCHECK

[R.F. Burns]

So you agree that transmitting new additional signals (analog or digital) in the same and adjacent bandwidth (as HD radio does) greatly increases interference, and does not reduce jamming or increase clear reception as HD radio supporters claim.

Anytime you introduce anything to an unmodulated carrier, interference is the outcome. Does operating at 125% positive and 100% negative with little dynamic range create interference? Forget first adjacent interference because there are no first adjacents licensed to cover the same territory. You can't pick and choose from what I said. My comment was, everything done by the FCC after deregulation has brought up the level of interference. I can say from first hand knowledge that when my radio switches from analogue to IBOC the audio quality is much improved. Properly engineered IBOC sounds better than my Super Radio set to wide mode AM, when listening to an, in market non IBOC station. Besides frequency response the noise floor disappears. It's a major improvement when silence is silence and not computer whine, or static or the sound of an analog carrier, which when demodulated does have a sound, thanks to the use of the heavy processing which most AM's rely upon. The only true answer we have for improving the AM band is to shut down all of the AM's licensed post deregulation. Have all the old daytime only stations become daytime stations once again. Also, stop issuing licenses for 50 KW operations on regional frequencies. Lets really clean up the AM broadcast band as opposed to choosing what is and what isn't acceptable interference based on personal needs. Adding a new radio station will cause more interference than any IBOC sideband. As of today since night time IBOC has been on the air I have yet to hear any added interference on any of my AM radios, other than losing the ability to eak out a noisy ID on WSB. In years past that station could be heard in the NYC metro area when WFAN wasn't modulating their transmitter. You see, adding audio to an unmodulated carrier increases interference. As a long time CW operator I saylets stop modulating AM carriers, It only increases the interference. That may sound crazy but who is to decide what is allowable interference and what isn't.

 

[calstymes]

My old friend R.F. suggested:

today's AM band is a disaster and only getting worse.

If the AM band is that much of a disaster (and only getting worse) then have you thought about using your OFF switch? Personally, I don't think the AM band is a disaster and I still enjoy listening to it, analog style. I will continue to do so and I elect to keep my radio on, thank you.

Oh yes, and while you're turning your AM radio off because the AM band is such a disaster, perhaps you can convince the upper echelons of fine radio management at your company in the nation's #1 market to turn their IBOC off so that it won't get any worse. I mean you do have some influence, don't you? Not only would this be a selfless act of kindness and public service, but, it would also be very much appreciated by us little people on this here message board.

Thank you very much for your time and consideration.

 

[PhilGalasso]

As a long time CW operator I say lets stop modulating AM carriers, It only increases the interference. That may sound crazy but who is to decide what is allowable interference and what isn't.

Here's a cheer for you IBOC cheerleaders out there (especially the CW operators):

H-D, H-D, H-D, rah! Three dits, four dits, two dits, dah!

 

[Savage]

Isn't IBOC a form of "accidental CW" anyway?

Sing it!!

"The IBOC spurs are four miles wide, doo-dahhh....doo-dahhh...."

 

[R.F. Burns]

Isn't IBOC a form of "accidental CW" anyway?

Sing it!!

"The IBOC spurs are four miles wide, doo-dahhh....doo-dahhh...."

The Intro

I'll try to show some restraint here, but is this your response when you really can't construct an argument to counter my point? By the way, Extra Class WB2 CW op here. Top receive speed was 35 WPM when I was active and my CW equipment is a Chrome Bencher and Heath Micromatic keyer. I think you've confused CW with the Bonzo Dog Doo Dah band.

&

The Outro

 

[calstymes]

R.F. Burns reminded:

By the way, Extra Class WB2 CW op here. Top receive speed was 35 WPM when I was active and my CW equipment is a Chrome Bencher and Heath Micromatic keyer.

Very cool! I'm an Extra Class op too, although I can't say that my CW speed ever made it to 35 WPM. 20 was quite enough for me thank you!

We should have a QSO sometime. Perhaps we can start an AM HD net on 75 meter phone. Could you imagine the controversy we would have on that net? The prospects give me goose pimples.

 

[JohnnyElectron]

I'm an Extra too, but I'm more interested in firing up an AM transmitter on 160 - in CQuam stereo instead of IBOC/HD.

 

[Play Freebird]

We should have a QSO sometime. Perhaps we can start an AM HD net on 75 meter phone. Could you imagine the controversy we would have on that net? The prospects give me goose pimples.

I would expect the "AM-ers" on 75 and 160 support the adoption of AM HD, as this has encouraged some broadcasters to get rid of functional 1950 and 1960-vintage 1 kw plate-modulated rigs at little or no cost. Fortunately, these are being salvaged and given a new life on the ham bands.

Although these guys don't appreciate the digital interference on medium-wave, I think most of them realize it's a passing fad and those digital signals will be shut down within a year or two.

As a fellow "Extra", I've thought about picking up a BTA-1R1, a BC-1H, or similar, but really don't have the space for all that iron. Actually, I would have more fun designing and building my own little MOSFET PDM rig.

 

[clouseau]

Sheesh I feel so inadaquate. Only a 5wpm General.

Oh well... No one else will ever have to learn code.

Clouseau

 

[PhilGalasso]

Sheesh I feel so inadaquate. Only a 5wpm General.

Oh well... No one else will ever have to learn code.

Clouseau

Oh, you might want to learn it if you want good weak-signal communications. During the recent VHF Contest, I used it on 6 meters to pull extremely weak stations out of the noise. On HF, it's a good mode for international communications, as the Q signals transcend language barriers and, even if the foreign operator speaks English, you don't have hard-to-understand foreign accents on CW.

The FCC won't MAKE you learn the code. But it doesn't hurt to learn it anyway.

For the other hams in this thread: Yes, I'm also on AM on 160 meters! Meet me some evening on 1885 kHz.

Phil, K2PG and experimental KA2XUK

 

[Eli Polonsky]

...but getting WSM 650 AM in Boston area at night is gone from WFAN's IBOC signal.

There's also old-fashioned analog co-channel inteference in Boston to WSM from 650 WSRO Ashland, MA, just 20 miles west of downtown Boston. I've heard even their low-power night signal in Boston, interfering with WSM skywave which is usually very weak this far away.

 

[Tom Wells]

So you agree that transmitting new additional signals (analog or digital) in the same and adjacent bandwidth (as HD radio does) greatly increases interference, and does not reduce jamming or increase clear reception as HD radio supporters claim.

Anytime you introduce anything to an unmodulated carrier, interference is the outcome. Does operating at 125% positive and 100% negative with little dynamic range create interference? Forget first adjacent interference because there are no first adjacents licensed to cover the same territory. You can't pick and choose from what I said. My comment was, everything done by the FCC after deregulation has brought up the level of interference. I can say from first hand knowledge that when my radio switches from analogue to IBOC the audio quality is much improved. Properly engineered IBOC sounds better than my Super Radio set to wide mode AM, when listening to an, in market non IBOC station. Besides frequency response the noise floor disappears. It's a major improvement when silence is silence and not computer whine, or static or the sound of an analog carrier, which when demodulated does have a sound, thanks to the use of the heavy processing which most AM's rely upon. The only true answer we have for improving the AM band is to shut down all of the AM's licensed post deregulation. Have all the old daytime only stations become daytime stations once again. Also, stop issuing licenses for 50 KW operations on regional frequencies. Lets really clean up the AM broadcast band as opposed to choosing what is and what isn't acceptable interference based on personal needs. Adding a new radio station will cause more interference than any IBOC sideband. As of today since night time IBOC has been on the air I have yet to hear any added interference on any of my AM radios, other than losing the ability to eak out a noisy ID on WSB. In years past that station could be heard in the NYC metro area when WFAN wasn't modulating their transmitter. You see, adding audio to an unmodulated carrier increases interference. As a long time CW operator I saylets stop modulating AM carriers, It only increases the interference. That may sound crazy but who is to decide what is allowable interference and what isn't.

I can Amen to all your points regarding cleaning up the band by respecting the original "band plan". Especially daytimers.
As far as the digital delivery being a real benefit in the steel and concrete environs, I often drive in the loop, and never really had any problem picking up
50 kw local AMs, but all in cars with tuned-RF section front end AMs.


I live 7 miles from downtown, and my location is very low on QRM, though the brick/steel attenuation here is noteworthy.
I could easily listen to WABC all day long in the winter on a big open tuned loop loose-couipler into a Collins 390 @4 khz...which i gotta fix soon.
Even though 780 was behind me on the hot end of the loop! Now that's a radio.

Anyway, regardless of the levels of diminishment and interference others report, my local situation has mushed a few frequencies,
probably more if I consider what I coulda usta heard on the hot radios with the tuned air loop. Maybe 10.
I still find the far greater atrocity to be the damage locally inflicted.
For the past 2 weeks I've been listening to a different factory 1972 Motorola AM/FM mono in a different Dodge Dart while the 65 gets new leaf springs.
Well, this radio has even better hi-end than the other, and I just re-aligned it to get 560-1690, a pretty good compromise.
The only HD that didn't grate my teeth was WLS at 40 miles south. WGN, WSCR and WBBM all @ 2-20 miles in my daily range,suffer MAJOR
lobe twisting of the digital sidebands as I drive to work. Everything and anything seems to vary them, and it is impossible to ever tune to a "setting"
of the dial which won't be wrong in 30 or 60 seconds.
On my commute, if I'm going in to the office is more or less due west toward the cluster of 3 50 kws, while cutting multiple radial lines , ending up 2 m NNE.
They've still done something better with the audio since august; w? Disney HD iBOC 1300 is still the old string-and-foam coffeecups analog.

I can't believe enough people can live in a sweet spot (minus interference) where this can help.
Maybe in NYC it's a help, but in here in Chicago, all the 50 kws are 25-35 miles out from the loop.
Are the signals really getting through the foot-thick brick walls of the converted lofts in all the old industrial buildings?
How much extension can you put on those loops before it detunes too much?

WBZ used to be really hi-fidelity here.

 

[mimo]

Canada has eliminated nearly two thirds of its AMs, by moving them to FM. Major CBC stations in Toronto and Montreal have moved totally to AM. The Maritimes trasnsmitter at Moncton is gone, replaced by local FM. The Canadian LPRTs are almost all on FM now.

That's not entirely true. The CBC in Moncton is still on the air, they haven't begun testing the FM yet, I heard 1070 tonight through the hash of WTIC.

Also we haven't eliminated two thirds of our AM, it's only ONE third, and those were small town stations, it's still a stupid move in many people's opinion. One station, CHUC applied for an extention for it's AM since it's new FM can't cover the what the graveyard frequency AM covers. Even at night. New AM licences are being granted and going on the air this year. Other stations have no interest in leaving AM.

 

[davideduardo]

That's not entirely true. The CBC in Moncton is still on the air, they haven't begun testing the FM yet, I heard 1070 tonight through the hash of WTIC.

My error. It was announced some time ago, so I assumed the transition was complete.

Also we haven't eliminated two thirds of our AM, it's only ONE third, and those were small town stations,

Winnipeg is a small market? Ottowa? Halifax? Regina? Stations like 580 Winnipeg are gone, and except for a few markets like Toronto and Vancouver and Montreal, where the authorities believe the FM band is not big enough for all the needed services... but otherwise, nearly all AMs will disappear. And just about all the CBC LPRT stations are gone, replaced by FM.

it's still a stupid move in many people's opinion. One station, CHUC applied for an extention for it's AM since it's new FM can't cover the what the graveyard frequency AM covers. Even at night. New AM licences are being granted and going on the air this year. Other stations have no interest in leaving AM.

Most are dying to go to FM, even with the greater programming content requirements.

 

[davideduardo]

That's not entirely true. The CBC in Moncton is still on the air, they haven't begun testing the FM yet, I heard 1070 tonight through the hash of WTIC.

I tried to add this edit, but was a bit late...

My error. The license grant states the AM would expire in August 2007, so I assumed the transition was complete.

Here are the date portions of the grant from the CRTC

Accordingly, the Commission approves the application by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation for a broadcasting licence to operate a new English-language FM radio programming undertaking in Moncton to replace its AM station, CBA.
11. The licence will expire 31 August 2007, the current licence expiry date for CBA. The licence will be subject to the conditions set out in the appendix to this decision, including a condition authorizing the licensee to simulcast the programming of the new FM station on CBA for a transition period of three months following the commencement of operation of the FM station.
12. The licensee requested that the Commission revoke the licence for CBA Moncton at the end of the simulcast period. In accordance with sections 9(1)(e) and 24(1) of the Broadcasting Act (the Act), the revocation will be effective three months from the date of commencement of operation of the FM station.

 

[mimo]

I was under the belief as well that CBA would be gone last year, but I read on one of our sites up here that it is still preparing to go to FM, so it hasn't yet. They must have worked something out with the CRTC to keep going.

I don't call cities like Winnipeg (my hometown) or Ottawa (where I currently live) to be small towns, 1 million people is definitely not a small town. I grew up with CKY as did my parents, and I'm sure my grandfather is rolling in his grave over the loss of his beloved CKRC, 2 winnipeg AM'S that are no nonger around, (on their original frequencies) Ottawa still has 4 AM'S with one more coming (1670) Regina only has one fewer frequency that's active compared to when I was a teen, but the others are still there, and seem to be doing well. I meant small as in under 20,000 people. One of our stations (CJRC 1150) DID get their new FM transmitter on the air over 4 months ago, and it has very serious signal problems outside of downtown, the part of the city my girlfriend lives does not get it very well at all (on FM) but the AM is solid, and where my parents live on the east side of the city the signal starts getting eaten up by a first adjacenet channel over an hour away. They haven't shut off the AM yet, except for a 4 hour span last month, and I haven't heard of a stay to keep on the air. They were supposed to terminate it at the end of August, and each day it stays on, I give them a thumbs up and say right on. Apparently the CBC has no plans to delete it's western Canadian AM affiliates and many of the low power AM'S are staying where they are. You're right that some have gone, but in truth it's not that many. The only one I can think of that went away was the one in Banff (horrible, even for 40 watts, the one down the road in Field does better and it's the same frequency) When a frequency goes dark it takes some time before it is allowed to go back up for auction to whomever wants to use it. It was 10 years after CKO 103.1 in Calgary was active again. I'm assuming po0r conditions for groundwave might be why they got rid of AM so quickly in Atlantic Canada. I've never been out there so I don't know, the few remaining ones on the dial there do come into Ottawa quite nicely at night. CBA is sometimes at 85% strength.

 

[JIBGUY]

AM IS a very viable service, and it always will be. It may only have 25 to 30% of the listening audience in the larger northeast cities (and less elsewhere), but that's a good reason to keep it going. I get the impression that some posters on this board just have a need to trash something, so they pick on AM radio. If you really want to trash something, trash IBOC--- the worst conceived piece o'crap that has ever hit the airwaves; wanted by no one except iBiquity. - Lobbyists get the job done in the interests of the businesses they work for and in doing so, work against the common person... and its no surprise that for that reason and a few other smaller ones, Congress has presently an 11% approval rating. - My prediction: IBOC will be dead in 5 years.

 

[Savage]

JIBGUY, you didn't share with posters here - you own TWO AM's on first-adjacent frequencies!! Just think - you could go HD-AM on BOTH and interfere WITH YOURSELF!! Gives a whole new dimension to the concept of "onanism."

5 years?? My good friend, I'll raise that....one to two years, max, the lifespan for this junk-technology. As soon as the coming winter hits IBOC-AM stations will be fluttering to the ground, one by one, like so many of last summer's maple leaves. I'd predict that as the skywave mess gets worse during short days of day-power operation for AMs, stations will be turning the noise off, one after another, at least at night. Another poster said it: nobody will kill IBOC-AM. It will just do a slow-mo slide into well-deserved oblivion.

The new Herrington catalog just arrived - includes a back-cover full-page devoted to a new high-end home/office radio, "George," by Chestnut Hill Audio. Includes a 5-speaker package, subwoofer, cool-sexy styling, and complete remote control/docking for your iPod with a nifty portable interface. It also has no-barrier, no band-switching between AM & FM stations, and speaker grilles you can interchange to harmonize with your decor. Pricey, at $500, but definitely combined with your iPod all you'd need for a complete home music system. Check it at HerringtonCatalog.com.

Oh, does "George" include either AM or FM HD?

That would be.....no.

 

[hipporadio]

"George," by Chestnut Hill Audio... Includes a 5-speaker package, subwoofer, cool-sexy styling, and complete remote control/docking for your iPod with a nifty portable interface. It also has no-barrier, no band-switching between AM & FM stations, and speaker grilles you can interchange to harmonize with your decor... pricey at $500...

Oh, does "George" include either AM or FM HD? That would be... NO

Bob... “George” will be arriving in my home this coming week! NO, I haven’t shelled-out $500 to buy him... It’s a loaner by an upscale audio client for evaluation and review. A few weeks ago, I concluded one on the British Revo Pico wireless LAN portable internet radio—a net-savvy version of the Tivoli PAL. Delivery in their 14 stores is scheduled for this week and over a THOUSAND have been pre-sold at $350! ...And the “HD” enthusiasts claim the lure of “IP radio” is a fable :

Here’s what inquiring minds are saying about ‘Ole George: He’s pricy-but-perfect with the iPod; has the best sound of any iPod docking solution and could easily stand-in for a larger home component audio system; has playlist navigation within the detachable front panel/wireless remote that excels that of the iPod itself; can be a high-fashion chameleon in any room; AND sports a more-friendly RADIO with an AM section that actually sounds good and works – allegedly, it was purposely-designed to be so; but darn—there’s NO HD!

What they DON’T like—the headphone jack and sub-woofer volume control on the rear panel.

What they DO like—the iPod interface/remote and the easily-tuned radio with scrollable presets.

What they DON’T miss—a built-in CD player ???

What they DO miss—XM or Sirius built-in... That one comes up in nearly-every evaluation; but guess how many times “HD” is mentioned for its exclusion? ...[YAWN]

The retail chain operator has NO ISSUES with the relatively-high price given the form-factor. This past Friday, I mentioned the “HD Pulse” radio—which I felt is THE FIRST to finally get it right... He chuckled and replied: “I have issues!”

 

[Savage]

Hippo, by all means, I'd be interested in what you think of "George" once you've got your old analog hands on it, you anti-IBOC reactionary codger (just like me! Say it loud and say it proud!)

Elsewhere on this board I see WJR had their IBOC off all weekend. And unless my reception conditions are weird WMVP (ex-WCFL) Chicago appears to have had their off at least at night, for several days.

Trouble in HD-AM paradise? ABC rethinking this engineering debacle? Who'd-a-thunk-it?