Broadcasters getting the hint

[dbdigital]

Ok, so there are a lot of you that seem to be confused and hell bent on putting words in my mouth.

Firstly, I never assumed what the public is doing. My statement was "all it cost ME..." I made no assumptions or presumptions that the public is doing this. Except that I have noticed it. I know what the average person spends on a radio, how many table-top units are sold anually, and I also know that most people have internet. I was merely pointing out that in order to use internet radio you have to pay a subscription, albeit to DSL phone company, but still a fee. Yes, divide the cost up amongst what else you use the internet for and the cost is mostly insignificant, but the point still rempains. If you can grasp at straws so can I.

The 'internet costs a monthly fee' argument has been used here before. As you know, the internet is used for so much; research, commerce, social networking, world-wide radio listening, music exchange, video etc., that you can hardly compare it's cost (even on a monthly basis) or value to HD-Radio.

HD-Radio is a one-trick pony.

db

 

[MasterTheseus]

Ok, so there are a lot of you that seem to be confused and hell bent on putting words in my mouth.

Firstly, I never assumed what the public is doing. My statement was "all it cost ME..." I made no assumptions or presumptions that the public is doing this. Except that I have noticed it. I know what the average person spends on a radio, how many table-top units are sold anually, and I also know that most people have internet. I was merely pointing out that in order to use internet radio you have to pay a subscription, albeit to DSL phone company, but still a fee. Yes, divide the cost up amongst what else you use the internet for and the cost is mostly insignificant, but the point still rempains. If you can grasp at straws so can I.

The 'internet costs a monthly fee' argument has been used here before. As you know, the internet is used for so much; research, commerce, social networking, world-wide radio listening, music exchange, video etc., that you can hardly compare it's cost (even on a monthly basis) or value to HD-Radio.

HD-Radio is a one-trick pony.

db

I understand that, and that is why I said so in my post.

Look, I am not saying that the reason you people don't like HD Radio is invalid, I am just saying that for many people HD Radio is providing an option for people that normally might not have it.

I was talking to a radio guy a few months back that lives in the Frisco area on a hill. Lived there 12 years and could never get more than a mono signal in his home. Once he hooked up the HDT-1 he said he could not only lock into all the stations
because of HD, but he and his sun sat there the whole weekend listening to th wonderful jazz station amazed at the sound.

No, HD Radio isn't for everyone. Yes, HD Radio has its limitations. All I am trying to say is that in actual practice HD Radio serves a purpose regardless of your individual and particular arguments against it.

 

[radiopilot]

I was talking to a radio guy a few months back that lives in the Frisco area on a hill. Lived there 12 years and could never get more than a mono signal in his home. Once he hooked up the HDT-1 he said he could not only lock into all the stations
because of HD, but he and his sun sat there the whole weekend listening to th wonderful jazz station amazed at the sound.

Is someone trying to pull the wool over our eyes?

If this guy in Frisco is not able to pull in any signal stronger than a 'mono' signal on his regular radio how is it that he's able to pull in the 'all' the HD stations with 1/10 the power of the regular analog signal with the Sangean?

Maybe some voodoo physics is going on here or some wrangling of the truth?

Please inform us how this could be?

Radiopilot

 

[PocketRadio]

Yes, HD Radio has its limitations...

At work today, I was able to get into Slacker.com and clearchannelmusic.com - the CC HD streaming gives listeners few options what to listen to, but Slacker let me build a personalized "radio station" of up to 20 artists. As I picked artists, Slacker made suggestions so I was able to rediscover some old 60s/70s classic-rock groups that I had forgotten about. Plus, Slacker gave a history of each group and let me vote on songs that I wanted to hear more of - really fun building "radio stations" and all for free !

 

[Tom Wells]

I was talking to a radio guy a few months back that lives in the Frisco area on a hill. Lived there 12 years and could never get more than a mono signal in his home. Once he hooked up the HDT-1 he said he could not only lock into all the stations
because of HD, but he and his sun sat there the whole weekend listening to th wonderful jazz station amazed at the sound.

Is someone trying to pull the wool over our eyes?

If this guy in Frisco is not able to pull in any signal stronger than a 'mono' signal on his regular radio how is it that he's able to pull in the 'all' the HD stations with 1/10 the power of the regular analog signal with the Sangean?

Maybe some voodoo physics is going on here or some wrangling of the truth?

Please inform us how this could be?

Radiopilot

I do believe these accounts of prople in higher elevations (like Mike Walker) benefiting from iBOC FM, as the multipath is on the up-and-out path.
But this would vary by each signal and situation.

 

[4dude]

It looks as if the major broadcasters are getting the hint that HD Radio (by itself) is not going to be their future salvation.

Excellent

 

[MasterTheseus]

I was talking to a radio guy a few months back that lives in the Frisco area on a hill. Lived there 12 years and could never get more than a mono signal in his home. Once he hooked up the HDT-1 he said he could not only lock into all the stations
because of HD, but he and his sun sat there the whole weekend listening to th wonderful jazz station amazed at the sound.

Is someone trying to pull the wool over our eyes?

If this guy in Frisco is not able to pull in any signal stronger than a 'mono' signal on his regular radio how is it that he's able to pull in the 'all' the HD stations with 1/10 the power of the regular analog signal with the Sangean?

Maybe some voodoo physics is going on here or some wrangling of the truth?

Please inform us how this could be?

Radiopilot

As addressed by one of the other members the multipath distortion was the likely cause for the improved reception. He is not uncommon in the cas of multipath disrupting analog signal and not digital.

I have heard reports of hills blocking digital signal and basically creating a wall, which is why even with HD Radio stations will be creating repeaters.

Again, I am no tech and don't completely understand all the issues in regards to reception.

I am not trying to pull the wool over anyones eyes, merely relaying a positive experience where HD Radio enhanced this persons ability to listen to radio.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

I was out in the San Francisco area (actually San Jose) about 10 years ago, and there was a station on 98.9 that reached the San Francisco area, and it rebroadcasted on 99.1 when you go over the mountain on Highway 17 to Santa Cruz. Therefore - on a first adjacent! Now going over the mountain 98.9 would go in and out, and 99.1 would go in and out.

The station is now Spanish and I don't read foreign languages - so I have no way of knowing if the duality is IBOC or not. But how - in the name of sanity - would IBOC work on Highway 17 to enhance anybody's listening experience? At best, you get one or the other in analog, and if they both come in, the IBOC sidebands would jam both frequencies.

First adjacents are not supposed to be listenable - but there are situations like this all over the country - Z88.3 Orlando comes to mind with its satellite stations on 88.1 and 88.5 - transition zones between the signals right in the middle of populated areas. Densely populated places on the Eastern seaboard, with closely packed allocations, virtually all 100 channels receivable over much of the region - with NO external antennas. IBOC might solve some reception problems, but it probably causes a lot more than it solves because it adds to frequency congestion. Up the sideband power ten times and a lot of people are going to be P.O.'ed.

BTW - please don't abbreviate because there is a rapidly growing city called "Frisco" in the DFW area. You say Frisco around here, people don't think of the one in California.

 

[MasterTheseus]

I was out in the San Francisco area (actually San Jose) about 10 years ago, and there was a station on 98.9 that reached the San Francisco area, and it rebroadcasted on 99.1 when you go over the mountain on Highway 17 to Santa Cruz. Therefore - on a first adjacent! Now going over the mountain 98.9 would go in and out, and 99.1 would go in and out.

The station is now Spanish and I don't read foreign languages - so I have no way of knowing if the duality is IBOC or not. But how - in the name of sanity - would IBOC work on Highway 17 to enhance anybody's listening experience? At best, you get one or the other in analog, and if they both come in, the IBOC sidebands would jam both frequencies.

First adjacents are not supposed to be listenable - but there are situations like this all over the country - Z88.3 Orlando comes to mind with its satellite stations on 88.1 and 88.5 - transition zones between the signals right in the middle of populated areas. Densely populated places on the Eastern seaboard, with closely packed allocations, virtually all 100 channels receivable over much of the region - with NO external antennas. IBOC might solve some reception problems, but it probably causes a lot more than it solves because it adds to frequency congestion. Up the sideband power ten times and a lot of people are going to be P.O.'ed.

BTW - please don't abbreviate because there is a rapidly growing city called "Frisco" in the DFW area. You say Frisco around here, people don't think of the one in California.

Firslty, I will take your abbreviation suggestion under advisement.

Secondly, I hope that isn't the problem. Again, I can't say exactly what damage HD Radio causes becuase the damage is outside of my understanding. All I do know is that here in LA I can tune in every station even some from San Diego. I can't make it up one or two steps without hitting another station in HD or otherwise.

With my limited technical skill, I believe selection and adjacent channel rejection come into play. I believe I know what these terms mean. Correct me if I am wrong, but the problems created by HD Radio may be more prevelant in poorly engineered radios than in well engineered ones. Not to say that is an acceptable situation.

 

[Chuck]

I believe selection and adjacent channel rejection come into play. I believe I know what these terms mean. Correct me if I am wrong, but the problems created by HD Radio may be more prevelant in poorly engineered radios than in well engineered ones. Not to say that is an acceptable situation.

I suspect that you are right. With radios that are as selective as the HDT-1, this may not be a problem. Unfortunately, there are millions and millions (maybe billions) of existing radios that are nowhere near the quality of the radios your company makes. If they were all that good, this might be a tenable situation. Unfortunately, that isn't the case. There are not many radios that outperform the ones you make. Most are really just junk, yet they are junk that has worked satisfactorily for people for a long time.

Has anybody figured out how big a land-fill it will take to deal with all the "obsolete" radios? These sounds like it could be an environmental issue. Where are Ralph Nader and Michael Moore when you need them?

 

[rbrucecarter5]

I suspect that you are right. With radios that are as selective as the HDT-1, this may not be a problem. Unfortunately, there are millions and millions (maybe

First adjacent selectivity does not have to be excellent for first adjacent reception to work in areas where a strong signal exists on a first adjacent next to a strong, but weakened city signal. When you get 50, 60 miles out from the towers, even in Texas where the towers are 2000 feet and the ERP 100 kW - if there is a first adjacent with a decent signal level - even relatively inexpensive radios can still lock on to the first adjacent. There may be some interference, a radio with poorly designed AFC might try to lock onto the stronger station - but if you only have 10 to 20 dB of difference in the signals, FA is not only possible, but commonplace. A good example is Irving, TX, where you have KEOM 88.5 and KTCU 88.7. It is easy on just about any portable to swap between them.

The only places that demand adaptive IF like the Sangean HDT-1 and new Pioneers are locations with a big difference in signal level between the adjacents. A good example is KOOI 106.5 Jacksonville, TX, from the DFW metroplex which has a strong rim shot on 106.7. Unless you have multiple stages of 110 kHz narrow filters, 106.7 is going to clobber 106.5. But with adaptive IF, 106.5 comes through cleanly.

This is Texas, with wide open spaces and hundreds of miles between major cities. I can only imagine the multiplied opportunities for first adjacent reception in the densely packed Eastern seaboard, Chicago, Los Angeles, and areas like them with lots of cities and lots of stations. My guess is that first adjacents are getting quite a listening, and people are completely oblivious to the fact that they shouldn't be doing it.

 

[Chuck]

My guess is that first adjacents are getting quite a listening, and people are completely oblivious to the fact that they shouldn't be doing it.

Despite arguments to the contrary, I know that in Texas, you are correct. They may not show up in Arbitron, but lots of people around East Texas listen to out of market stations on a regular basis. Your example of KOOI is a good one. For me, that is a more or less "local" station, although Jacksonville is about 60 miles from my house. I know their GM, and I'm very sure he would be upset to hear that Longview and Marshall are not a part of his market. That's despite the fact that Marshall is not in the Arbitron Tyler-Longview Metro, and Longview is even further from Jacksonville than I am. In fact,the signal is usable as far away as Shreveport, LA. I'm very sure that people are listening to KOOI at least as far away as the Louisiana state line. I guess this means the Radio Police need to pay them a visit and tell that they have been bad, very bad....