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Buffalo Radio Ratings

tbolt909 said:
You say the music is "perfect". Lots of restaurants go out of business serving what they think is "perfect" food...
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I did not say that the music was “perfect”. I said, theoretically, “a station playing perfect music…” as a generalized situation where even were that the case, an adequate existing and established station may remain dominant due to lack of the awareness, trial and usage process.
 
CTListener said:
So Bruce Springsteen and Billy Joel are just as strong in Oklahoma City as they are on Long Island? The Allman Brothers and Lynyrd Skynyrd test as well in Boston as they do in Birmingham?
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Certain Artists may be more or less popular in different areas. That has no impact on Classic Rock playlists though. Coca Cola is the same in Denver, Cincinnati, Tampa, Kansas City, etc...

It's absurd to test music that is 40 or 50 years old. If Led Zeppelin starts testing poorly, they still won't be removed from a Classic Rock playlist. The format has changed very little in 25 years...
 
I say please do not give Mr. Eduardo a hard time, he loves radio as much as anyone can. A business plan is subject to macro factors, far bigger than any individual. Radio people are working hard for the best outcome in today's environment. For example, I think WIOD is handling the transmitter site relocation in the best way that is feasible in this time. They can't maximize the signal without regard to anything else, including environmental matters such as the Everglades. Major group owners are competent and executing their business plans. Folks have different approaches, but all want to succeed.
 
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tbolt909 said:
....
It's absurd to test music that is 40 or 50 years old. If Led Zeppelin starts testing poorly, they still won't be removed from a Classic Rock playlist. The format has changed very little in 25 years...
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tbolt909- my view is a commercially and ratings oriented radio station will seek to program what their target audience wants to hear. Music testing is part of that determination. If the target audience does not want to hear "Stairway to Heaven" or "Free Bird", those songs will be gone lickety-split. But... apparently they do.
 
tbolt909 said:
Certain Artists may be more or less popular in different areas. That has no impact on Classic Rock playlists though. Coca Cola is the same in Denver, Cincinnati, Tampa, Kansas City, etc...
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The fact is that what varies the way music is played from market to market depends on a variety of factors:
  1. The average / median age of the market. Some markets can be as different as ten to twelve years from others.
  2. The ethnic composition of the market. Not only does the percentage of Blacks, Hispanics and diverse immigrant populations determine how many partisans of each style or kind of music will have, it can influence the general "mood" of the market.
  3. The actual local historical play and popularity of a format will affect the familiarity of a format's core music in each market.
  4. The "population turnover" will affect all of the other elements. Markets like Buffalo or Cleveland or Grand Rapids that are not "destination" markets will behave differently than Atlanta, Houston, Phoenix of Nashville. In the low turnover markets, "everyone" will have the same historical radio and media exposure to songs, while in the growth markets the opposite is true.
tbolt909 said:
It's absurd to test music that is 40 or 50 years old. If Led Zeppelin starts testing poorly, they still won't be removed from a Classic Rock playlist. The format has changed very little in 25 years...
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You have obviously never tested that "40 year old music" for an established station. The purpose of testing is multi-faceted. First, you look for songs that have burn or fatigue and either slow the rotations or rest the songs. Then you constantly test "newer" songs that might have "grown into" the format. And you look, among the well performing songs, for the need to increase or decrease play.

After multiple tests, you may see that certain songs have a wave-like up and down cycle, and need to be played more for a period and less for another. Knowing this, one can optimize scheduling so that those songs go up and down in rotation even between tests because we learn they are cyclical.

Finally, within core artists, we have to look at the whole set of songs and determine the artist rotation, song separation and individual cut rotations so that we don't over-populate the station with plays and also give adequate attention to secondary, but well liked, songs.

The process is a lot more sophisticated and complex than you make out.

And we don't test "Led Zeppelin". We test songs by Led Zeppelin. Each is viewed as a separate entity and programmed accordingly.
 
Greg Strickland said:
tbolt909- my view is a commercially and ratings oriented radio station will seek to program what their target audience wants to hear. Music testing is part of that determination. If the target audience does not want to hear "Stairway to Heaven" or "Free Bird", those songs will be gone lickety-split. But... apparently they do.
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It's a circular argument. Classic Rock is an established format. It hasn't changed much in 25 years. Radio companies deserve to go bankrupt if they waste money testing "Stairway to Heaven".

WBUF is playing what is supposed to work and yet they have a 1.3 share. Theoretically, they are giving their target audience what it wants. That doesn't guarantee a winning formula...
 
tbolt909 said:
It's a circular argument. Classic Rock is an established format. It hasn't changed much in 25 years. Radio companies deserve to go bankrupt if they waste money testing "Stairway to Heaven".
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Exactly the opposite is true: we deserve failure if we don't test, regularly, the reaction to every song in the library and adjust rotations in accordance with the results.

As I said previously, you have obviously never been through the process of planning, executing and implementing a music test.

Testing is all the more critical today, with exposure to music coming from a variety of new media sources as well as traditional radio.
tbolt909 said:
WBUF is playing what is supposed to work and yet they have a 1.3 share. Theoretically, they are giving their target audience what it wants. That doesn't guarantee a winning formula...
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Again, as said previously, if there is no "need" in the market for an additional station in a format and a new station is not markedly superior to the existing one, people will stick with the familiar station. That is particularly true in markets where there is very little population turnover, such as Buffalo, and much less true in markets with lots of turnover and inbound migration, like Phoenix.
 
tbolt909 Does a format name follow a group of people as they age? As a listener and music lover, I've observed the public's name of a music category is sometimes changed, such as throw-back or old school instead of oldie. Classic rock instead of progressive. etc. Do you think the target audience of a radio industry format name ages with it's original target individuals?

My contemporaries and I are now in a well known age group, but that does not mean we now want to hear every song we loved back in the day (to demographically appropriate a term).

In the '70s I worked at a station that played "Stairway to Heaven" and "Free Bird" hundreds of times. Now I listen to them as period pieces and examples of the sonics, music production goals and capabilities of the era. Nice to hear and appreciate the songs, but I lived that era, some good memories and some not so good.

Note I am posting here wearing the listener hat. Not intending to step on programmers.
 
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Just FYI, it was brought up that agencies have access to all radio station data. Beginning this month, that is not the case. If a radio station does not subscribe to Nielsen, that station will appear no where, not even to agencies.

its another way of saying “ extortion”. Only stations that pay the full boat and subscribe to Nielsen will be shown anywhere. I own a station and a advertising agency, so I know this well. this is a brand new rule from Nielsen

WECK is busting at the seams in the 50 plus demo, but even in spite of that, I may not renew. Most local agencies purchase by their gut, or relationships, national agencies strictly purchase by ratings, but they only care about 25 to 54.

I think us radio geeks focus way too much on ratings. Now that they come every month, it is especially a pain in the a**. Good or bad, I don’t believe they are truly accurate. How can they be? The system is old and archaic.

I know Ed Christian who owns Saga. He was telling me that the whole group dropped Nielsen and they are glad they did. They now sell by qualitative, not quantitative, which is much better anyway.

They don’t care what their “ rank of the month “ is, because they know that is not what local listeners and advertisers care about.

This ratings game is getting old. It is counterproductive. Good or bad. Radio should be thinking about content, advertisers, and running a good ship. WECK is going to have a great ratings book this month, even 12 plus, because I have seen the trends. It will be a 3.5 to 4. The same place it usually is, but I don’t give a shi* anymore.

I used to be at my computer at 12 noon waiting for the numbers. Now, I forget what day they are coming out.

Companies that depend on national business should be in the ratings game, but besides that, I can’t think of any compelling reason. Our agreement ends in a few months. I doubt I will renew
 
Greg Strickland said:
tbolt909 Does a format name follow a group of people as they age? As a listener and music lover, I've observed the public's name of a music category is sometimes changed, such as throw-back or old school instead of oldie. Classic rock instead of progressive. etc. Do you think the target audience of a radio industry format name ages with it's original target individuals?

My contemporaries and I are now in a well known age group, but that does not mean we now want to hear every song we loved back in the day (to demographically appropriate a term).

In the '70s I worked at a station that played "Stairway to Heaven" and "Free Bird" hundreds of times. Now I listen to them as period pieces and examples of the sonics, music production goals and capabilities of the era. Nice to hear and appreciate the songs, but I lived that era, some good memories and some not so good.

Note I am posting here wearing the listener hat. Not intending to step on programmers.
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Music is just music. Radio formats give it a genre name. "Oldies" had to be dropped by most stations because it indicates extreme age and is toxic to Ad Agencies. Now, it's Classic Hits playing mainly 70s and 80s stuff.
Yes, stations that don't evolve age out. A 38 year old Classic Rock listener in 2001 is now 58.

Some young people may consider Pearl Jam and Nirvana "Oldies artists" from the 90s.
You say you are a music lover. Does Radio satisfy you? That's up to each individual to decide. Radio only offers a very small sample of Artists & Genres...
 
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DavidEduardo said:
Exactly the opposite is true: we deserve failure if we don't test, regularly, the reaction to every song in the library and adjust rotations in accordance with the results.

As I said previously, you have obviously never been through the process of planning, executing and implementing a music test.

Testing is all the more critical today, with exposure to music coming from a variety of new media sources as well as traditional radio.
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Actually, I have. What you stated here depends on the format. The playlists on most Classic Rock stations in the country have changed little in 25 years. If you don't believe me, look them up. It's Pink Floyd, Boston, Zeppelin, etc.. The same titles set in concrete.

If you're talking about AAA, Alternative, Country or Top 40-- That is much different. Music testing in those formats can be useful...
 
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tbolt909 said:
Actually, I have. What you stated here depends on the format. The playlists on most Classic Rock stations in the country have changed little in 25 years. If you don't believe me, look them up. It's Pink Floyd, Boston, Zeppelin, etc.. The same titles set in concrete.
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Which is all the more reason to do periodic music tests to determine rotations, rests and songs that can be added or dropped.
tbolt909 said:
If you're talking about AAA, Alternative, Country or Top 40-- That is much different. Music testing in those formats can be useful...
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I've done everything from CHR to Jack equivalents. I have never seen a test that did not indicate a need for adjustments in rest, rotation, addition and drops in any format.
 
Music testing is a critical component, no argument. But remember, there are a number of components that must be done absolutely right; if not, the money, time and energy spent on the music test is wasted. Years ago, stations did auditorium music tests as frequently as every other year, but tightened budgets and economics have in many cases eliminated testing, or caused it to be substantially reduced. There's not a programmer or consultant in the business who at one time or another hasn't been surprised by the score a certain songs gets in different markets.
 
Buddy Shula said:
WECK is busting at the seams in the 50 plus demo, but even in spite of that, I may not renew. Most local agencies purchase by their gut, or relationships, national agencies strictly purchase by ratings, but they only care about 25 to 54.
Companies that depend on national business should be in the ratings game, but besides that, I can’t think of any compelling reason. Our agreement ends in a few months. I doubt I will renew
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Since you knew all of this long ago, did subscribing to Nielsen benefit you? In other words, did you get any advertisers that you wouldn't have been able to without the ratings? WECK has more than double the ratings of WBUF. Is that worth anything?

Most savvy advertisers would know that the audience for an Oldies format is almost entirely over 55. Your station is a good fit if they want to target those demos. It seems like eliminating the Nielsen expense would improve your bottom line. You wouldn't be losing advertisers who wish to target 25--54 demos anyway...
 
In my 4 years of ownership, Nielson has benefited WECK from an ROI standpoint due to our very good ratings 35 plus, and obviously great ratings 55 plus.

But do we need Nielson now to prove our worth after 4 years? That is what I am pondering. I would rather cancel Nielson and keep investing in the station, the employees, the audience, the clients, etc.
 
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