Can someone show channel 3 a map of the valley...

[bryada]

I cant understand how week after week during the news, especially Patty and Scott, will refer to areas of Phoenix as the "west valley". Yesterday there was a situation at 35th ave and lower Buckeye and they referred to it as the west valley. Last week an incident took place at 43rd ave and McDowell and they referred to it as the "far west valley". Do they have any idea how far West "the valley" goes?

Yes, I registered just to put that on here.

 

[sunspot51]

LOL, funny!! I guess my living in Surprise puts me in east Yuma!

 

[KeithE4]

I cant understand how week after week during the news, especially Patty and Scott, will refer to areas of Phoenix as the "west valley". Yesterday there was a situation at 35th ave and lower Buckeye and they referred to it as the west valley. Last week an incident took place at 43rd ave and McDowell and they referred to it as the "far west valley". Do they have any idea how far West "the valley" goes?

Back when KTVK went on the air (1955), 43rd Ave. & McDowell was the far-west valley. Other than Glendale, Peoria, and a lot of farms, there wasn't much of anything north or west of there at the time. Maryvale was still a couple of years in the future. They were probably looking at a map from that era. ;D

And I think the Maricopa/Yuma county line is somewhere around 535th Ave., so one could say that's how far west the Valley goes.

Yes, I registered just to put that on here.

Welcome to the board!

 

[formeraa]

Breaking News! <insert graphic with serious music> There has been a rollover accident in Southern Flagstaff. It happened at I-17 and Carefree Highway!

 

[jeffinaz]

Breaking News! <insert graphic with serious music> There has been a rollover accident in Southern Flagstaff. It happened at I-17 and Carefree Highway!

Wonders if Verde Valley is part of Flagstaff or Phoenix now? ;D

 

[brian4]

To take this to the radio point of view: I always smile when KTAR's traffic reporter, 'Detour' Dan Beach, calls the Loop 101, especially on the Westside, "Outer-Loop 101."

I know D.D.B. has been doing this for years, when there wasn't anything near the Agua Fria Freeway but cotton fields, Sun City and orange groves. But with the way the Valley is growing, it will soon be the Middle-Loop 101!

 

[KeithE4]

To take this to the radio point of view: I always smile when KTAR's traffic reporter, 'Detour' Dan Beach, calls the Loop 101, especially on the Westside, "Outer-Loop 101."

One could call the sections of I-10 and I-17 between the stack and the airport an "inner-loop," but I don't think anybody does.

I know D.D.B. has been doing this for years, when there wasn't anything near the Agua Fria Freeway but cotton fields, Sun City and orange groves. But with the way the Valley is growing, it will soon be the Middle-Loop 101!

Don't count on it. The South Mountain Freeway section of the 202 and the rest of the 303 will eventually get built, but the plans for the Durango Freeway (AZ 801, from I-10 to AZ 85) and the Gateway Freeway (AZ 802, from the 202 near Gateway Airport to AZ 79 near Florence) have reportedly been shelved due to lack of money. I don't think we'll be seeing a Loop 404, 505, or 606 anytime soon, either.

 

[VU@zero]

To take this to the radio point of view: I always smile when KTAR's traffic reporter, 'Detour' Dan Beach, calls the Loop 101, especially on the Westside, "Outer-Loop 101."

I know D.D.B. has been doing this for years, when there wasn't anything near the Agua Fria Freeway but cotton fields, Sun City and orange groves. But with the way the Valley is growing, it will soon be the Middle-Loop 101!

Shouldn't that part of the 101 be called the Loop "1/4 northwestern quasi-circled 101 freeway"?

 

[brian4]

To take this to the radio point of view: I always smile when KTAR's traffic reporter, 'Detour' Dan Beach, calls the Loop 101, especially on the Westside, "Outer-Loop 101."

One could call the sections of I-10 and I-17 between the stack and the airport an "inner-loop," but I don't think anybody does.

Actually, Keith, D.D.B. does say Inner-Loop every once and a while, in the area you mentioned.

I stand corrected.

 

[sandiegoinexile]

To take this to the radio point of view: I always smile when KTAR's traffic reporter, 'Detour' Dan Beach, calls the Loop 101, especially on the Westside, "Outer-Loop 101."

I think he is referring to the outer lanes. Much easier that saying West/South Lanes or East/North Lanes. The "Outer Loop" are the lanes on the outside of the circle, driving in a counter-clockwise manner. "Inner Loop" are the lanes on the inside of the circle, driving in a clockwise direction.

The Outer Loop lanes on the "west side" of the valley (1st Avenue to 100th Ave) can be "west bound" or "south bound", depending whether you are in the north or the west.

So, yes, it is ONE big 101 loop, with two sections (an inner and an outer).

 

[KeithE4]

So, yes, it is ONE big 101 loop, with two sections (an inner and an outer).

They should use the names of the freeways more than they do, such as the Agua Fria, Pima, and Price Freeways for Loop 101, Red Mountain or Santan Freeway for Loop 202, etc. Then there will be no mistake as to which section of a given highway number is being talked about.

For example: If Detour Dan or one of his compadres says "There's a wreck on the northbound 101 at Indian School," which side of town are they talking about? There are exits at Indian School Rd. on the 101 on both sides of town.

 

[KOHS]

DPS dispatchers even have difficulty with freeway locations. I called in an incident at Guadalupe and the 202 Santan Freeway. The dispatcher informed me that the 202 did not intersect with Guadalupe. I invited her to look at a map. She did and apologized. ;D

 

[asugeorge1]

I think this discussion about the proper way to identify the various “loops” goes to a much deeper issue about the lack of planning for valley freeways. Whoever created the entire "Loop" system in Phoenix must have been crazy because the majority of the Loops don't take you anywhere near the city center (the lone exception being the Loop 202 Red Mountain Freeway near downtown). Common sense tells you that the quickest path between two points is a straight line, but the loop system takes you far out of the way to get where you need to be. The Loop system is great for the people that just so happen to live on the outskirts of town by one of the loops, but for the vast majority of people in Phoenix, the loops are an impractical freeway system to get from Point A to Point B. In addition, with the downturn in the economy, higher gas prices and other societal changes, people don't want to live 30 miles plus away from downtown. Take for example the Loop 303. It's difficult to see who exactly will benefit from that freeway besides retirees in Sun City West and the Texas Rangers playing baseball out at Surprise Ballpark. Valley freeway planners think the population is going to continue to grow on the fringes, but I think this is a misguided formula for planning future freeways in Phoenix.

Funny thing is, the freeways that would have benefited valley commuters the most, particularly the Paradise Freeway along Camelback Road in north-central Phoenix, got scrapped because of funding issues. As it is right now, ADOT has no plans to improve the freeway infrastructure around downtown Phoenix. As the population continues to grow, the pressure on the key freeway routes will continue to increase (key routes being Interstate 10, Interstate 17, State Route 51, U.S. 60 and the Loop 202 from the 101 to downtown).

So, going back on topic, I can't blame Detour Dan Beach and other traffic reporters for not having universal terminology for identifying traffic problems on the "Loop" system. In most cities, it’s easy. Take for example Chicago. Most traffic reporters there say “inbound on the Kennedy” or “outbound on the Stevenson” followed by the number of minutes to a given destination. I find this form of traffic reporting to be the best because it specifically tells you, in laymen’s terms, where you’re going (either toward downtown or away from downtown), what freeway you’re on (instead of Interstate 90 it’s the Kennedy Expressway) and how long it will take you to get there (i.e. 20 minutes from O’Hare to downtown). Why traffic reporters don’t do that here is beyond me, but the Loop system doesn’t help things either since those freeways doesn’t even head downtown, except for the 202 Red Mountain freeway.

Also, I know casual drivers and visitors from out of town have to be confused by the loop system. For example, say you want to tell somebody to go to Bass Pro Shop at the 202 and Dobson Road. A confused driver might mistake that to be the 202 Santan Freeway and Dobson in Chandler instead of the 202 Red Mountain Freeway in Mesa. It also doesn't help that ADOT, for whatever reason, does not put the freeway names on exit signs for the loops. In addition, most of the "Loop" signs don't indicate which city the freeway is going to. The lone exception is signs for the Loop 202 - Red Mountain Freeway eastbound leaving the Sky Harbor airport. Take, for example, the Loop 202 East signs coming from downtown via the eastbound Interstate 10. All it says is "Loop 202 East". What it should say is "Loop 202 East - Tempe, Mesa". All other normal freeways say which city you’re heading to, so why doesn't the Loop system do it? Creating driver confusion must be the goal of ADOT. ;D

All in all, I think the "Loop" system may have made sense to ADOT planners in the 1980's, but here in the year 2011, the entire system is trivial and confusing. Don't feel bad Detour Dan if you can't find the proper way to pronounce an accident on the outer-loop 101!

 

[KeithE4]

All in all, I think the "Loop" system may have made sense to ADOT planners in the 1980's, but here in the year 2011, the entire system is trivial and confusing. Don't feel bad Detour Dan if you can't find the proper way to pronounce an accident on the outer-loop 101!

The prototypes for what became I-10, AZ 51, US 60, Loop 101 the Red Mountain section of the 202, and the now-on-hold AZ 801 were on the planning books as early as 1960, when only part of the Black Canyon Freeway (then AZ 69 - I don't think I-17 signs were there yet) had been built.

Phoenix freeway plan - 1960 (jpeg)

So, going back on topic, I can't blame Detour Dan Beach and other traffic reporters for not having universal terminology for identifying traffic problems on the "Loop" system. In most cities, it’s easy. Take for example Chicago. Most traffic reporters there say “inbound on the Kennedy” or “outbound on the Stevenson” followed by the number of minutes to a given destination. I find this form of traffic reporting to be the best because it specifically tells you, in laymen’s terms, where you’re going (either toward downtown or away from downtown), what freeway you’re on (instead of Interstate 90 it’s the Kennedy Expressway) and how long it will take you to get there (i.e. 20 minutes from O’Hare to downtown). Why traffic reporters don’t do that here is beyond me, but the Loop system doesn’t help things either since those freeways doesn’t even head downtown, except for the 202 Red Mountain freeway.

And I agree, the way the Chicago stations (especially WBBM) do traffic is much better than how they do it here. And it's even better knowing that I'm no longer driving in it. ;D

 

[MusicFan2009]

http://www.arizonaroads.com/pics/urban1960.jpg

Keith,

This is so cool man. Thanks for sharing. I love the names they had planned out. It would make it so much easier and direct. I like the Tempe-Mesa Expressway. I agree with you and asugeorge about the fact that it can be hard to know where locations are around this town. I'm from a small town in Michigan and even though I have been here for almost 5 years now, I can still get confused and need a map every now and then to help with locations.

It just makes you wonder if this map had been executed and in place today how the Valley of the Sun would be like now.

Thanks Keith.

 

[KeithE4]

http://www.arizonaroads.com/pics/urban1960.jpg

Keith,

This is so cool man. Thanks for sharing. I love the names they had planned out. It would make it so much easier and direct. I like the Tempe-Mesa Expressway. I agree with you and asugeorge about the fact that it can be hard to know where locations are around this town. I'm from a small town in Michigan and even though I have been here for almost 5 years now, I can still get confused and need a map every now and then to help with locations.

It just makes you wonder if this map had been executed and in place today how the Valley of the Sun would be like now.

Thanks Keith.

You have to remember that the valley's population was around 650,000 in 1960, compared to 4 million today. There was plenty of room to build those freeways in the desert back then.

 

[formeraa]

You have to remember that the valley's population was around 650,000 in 1960, compared to 4 million today. There was plenty of room to build those freeways in the desert back then.

And there was a ton of federal money available back then, too. It's really too bad that Phoenix waited so long to build its freeway system. I spent the summer here in 1983 and wondered why there were so few freeways in the town. Even back then, it took forever to drive down Camelback or Indian School or Baseline...

 

[coyoteaz]

Back when newspapers mattered, the Republic did a damn good job of delaying the entire freeway system in the Valley for 10-15 years. Voters eventually got fed up with the traffic and lack of fast ways to get anywhere and passed a 1/2 cent sales tax in '85 that funded the entire system for 20 years. This funding model also meant that all of the non-Interstate highways in Phoenix were built without federal money, and thus Phoenix is one of the few major metro area with no 3 digit interstates. If Phoenix was anywhere else, the 51 would be I-510, the 202 would be I-210, the 101 I-410, and the Superstition portion of 60 would probably would have been cosigned as an Interstate too. And for what it's worth, the Paradise Parkway was killed by backlash from people in the affected area, not by a lack of funds. Too many middle and upper class white people along that path to build a freeway there.

Control cities on the signs would be tough in some areas. What do you sign on the eastbound 202 (either portion) as you cross into Mesa? The only place it goes is further into Mesa. This is pretty common for beltways: the 605 in LA is only signed to "THRU TRAFFIC", and 635 in Dallas doesn't have anything for most of its length, just "DFW Airport" on the northwestern portion.

Do the local stations at least have accurate maps for the completed freeways? I left Phoenix as the last portion of the 202 was being finished up, and I remember visiting a year later and whatever newscast I caught still had the big gap between Power and University.

 

[KeithE4]

Back when newspapers mattered, the Republic did a damn good job of delaying the entire freeway system in the Valley for 10-15 years.

Then-Republic/Gazette owner Gene Pulliam was part of (some say "dictator of") the Phoenix 40, a "civic-mided" group of local businessmen, lawyers, and media moguls (Pulliam and KOOL's Tom Chauncey) who pretty much dictated city policy during the latter part of the Charter Government era. If Pulliam said "No freeways!" (and he did), there were no freeways. Period. He (and his son, who took over the papers when the elder Pulliam died in 1975) set back the completion of I-10 through the city for years.

Voters eventually got fed up with the traffic and lack of fast ways to get anywhere and passed a 1/2 cent sales tax in '85 that funded the entire system for 20 years. This funding model also meant that all of the non-Interstate highways in Phoenix were built without federal money, and thus Phoenix is one of the few major metro area with no 3 digit interstates. If Phoenix was anywhere else, the 51 would be I-510, the 202 would be I-210, the 101 I-410, and the Superstition portion of 60 would probably would have been cosigned as an Interstate too. And for what it's worth, the Paradise Parkway was killed by backlash from people in the affected area, not by a lack of funds. Too many middle and upper class white people along that path to build a freeway there.

What would later become the southern-most leg of AZ 51 was signed as I-410, later I-510, for a few years in the late '60s. But that leg only ran between I-10 and Buckeye Rd. and basically was the west entrance to Sky Harbor Airport.

Do the local stations at least have accurate maps for the completed freeways? I left Phoenix as the last portion of the 202 was being finished up, and I remember visiting a year later and whatever newscast I caught still had the big gap between Power and University.

The maps are pretty good for the most part. BTW the entire Loop 202 is finished between I-10/AZ 51 and I-10/Pecos Rd. Only the South Mountain Freeway in Ahwatukee is still in the p***ing-contest stage between the City and the Gila River folks.

 

[dhett]

I think he is referring to the outer lanes. Much easier that saying West/South Lanes or East/North Lanes. The "Outer Loop" are the lanes on the outside of the circle, driving in a counter-clockwise manner. "Inner Loop" are the lanes on the inside of the circle, driving in a clockwise direction.

While that's true in some cities (eg., Washington Beltway), here, the entire Loop 101 is the Outer Loop, while I-10 and I-17 around downtown make up the Inner Loop. I was used to the same setup growing up around Rochester NY, so it took me a little while to figure out that when DC-area reporters were talking about an "inner loop" and "outer loop", they were talking about the same freeway.

According to some real estate literature I had read, the Town of Paradise Valley was incorporated in 1961 "to preserve open space". I wonder if part of the reason for incorporation was to provide organized opposition to the freeway which was planned to run about where Lincoln Drive is now?