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Can We Stop Calling The 60s/70s/80s Format "Classic Hits"?

firepoint525 said:
But I think what killed it for me was when Kenny and Dolly recorded "Islands in the Stream." I hated that song! And yet it was #1 pop! (I don't know how it did on country.) It didn't even matter to me that it was written by the Bee Gees! (I think the Gibbs wrote everything on that particular album by Kenny Rogers.) I can't help but think that I wasn't the only one who felt that way! I really feel like a strong backlash against "Islands in the Stream" killed country crossovers for several years to come after that!

Visiting this site-- Ya never stop learning. I didn't realize the BeeGees wrote that song. IIRC though "Islands in the Stream" was the #1 song of the year on the Bob Kingsley Country Countdown based on the Billboard charts. Back in those days in the 80s it was typical for almost all the #1 Country songs to spend just 1 week at the top. Many of those songs made a slow slow climb to the top, then after getting there drop off dramatically. It was not unusual to see the #1 song fall to #8 or #9 sometimes out of the Top 10 the very next week. They were usually off the entire Top 40 in a few weeks. So many years in the 80s there would be around 48 different #1 country songs each year. "Islands in the Stream" was at the top for 2 or 3 weeks and that's why it was #1 for the year 1983. The previous year Willie Nelson's "Always on My Mind" was #1 for 2 or 3 weeks and it was the #1 song that year.
 
DavidEduardo said:
The stories of Drake powering a song just because he wanted to balance the playlist for overall texture are well known... we all did that sort of thing.
....
And the playlist was tailored by the PD to fit the sound of the station, with songs left off, songs increased in rotation, etc., and having nothing to do with sales, requests, juke box play, etc.

You are on the money here. I sure remember Drake's WOR-FM playing some songs that got zero play on WABC and WMCA (when they were still Top 40). "Same Shame" -Magic Lanterns and "Hush" -Deep Purple come to mind. At the same times big hit songs such as "Dizzy"-Tommy Roe, "Crimson & Clover" (#1 on WABC) and Steppenwolf songs were not even played!!
 
firepoint525 said:
mleach said:
about country crossover hits...Pretty much the only place those "crossover" hits are found today is on country radio. Even our local Light AC station won't play Kenny Rogers' Lady much less Coward of the County. Of course some country songs like "This Kiss" and "Man..I Feel like a woman", I have heard those pop up on some Light Rock and even a few HOT AC stations but then again those versions are different sounding than the same song that gets played on country stations.

Last night my wife and I talked about those crossover hits and how songs like "Elvira" and groups like Alabama found themselves getting played on top 40 stations in the late 70s-early 80s, often as much as they did on country stations.
I believe two factors stopped the practice. One was MTV of course. Even though MTV went on the air in 1981, it really wasnt until the summer/fall of 1982 when a lot of people started to notice them and the whole idea of music videos. Not only did that end those country crossovers but also examples of Barry Manilow, The Carpenters and even The Pointer Sisters having hits on top 40 radio. Barry Manilow for example in the Spring of 1982 had a remake of the Four Seasons song "Lets Hang on" that actually got quite a bit of airplay on such "big" Top 40 stations at the time like Washington DC's Q107 and Baltimore's B-104. A year later both Q107 and B-104 wouldn't be caught dead playing Manilow tune, much less Alabama.

Another reason I have heard why country crossovers "died" was due to the fact that many of those artists, well they hated doing them. While Dolly Parton could have cared less that 9-5 was getting played on many rock stations others didn't share her lack of concerns. Juice Newton, I remember watching an interview with her back then when she made a comment where she said she really didn't like her songs like "Loves Been A Little Bit Hard on Me" getting airplay on rock stations since she felt "safer" in country music.

Oh..Joe Dolce's Shaddap Your Face was a big hit on Buffalo's WKBW as well. Actually the only place I remember hearing that song back then was on KB.
You're right that many current country tunes are written, recorded, mixed and remixed with crossover success in mind. One thing that I have noticed this time around is that it seems that more women are crossing over now, whereas back in the '70s and '80s it was mostly men. Of course, most of these songs are showing up on AC or "lite rock" radio, women-intensive formats.

Interesting theories about why crossovers died out in the early '80s. I both agree and disagree with what you have said here. I believe the rise of heavy metal in the early '80s helped crowd out country music from pop radio. It also crowded off soft-rockers like Air Supply, Captain & Tennille, etc. It may have spelled the end for the Carpenters, too, as you said, but I believe Karen Carpenter was probably already terminally ill by then, so it may not have mattered for them. Manilow actually started "rockin' out" (well, for him, anyway) about that time. Not only "Let's Hang On," which you mentioned, but also "Oh, Julie" and "Some Kind of Friend," the last of which may have cost him some fans! None of those were big hits for him. I don't think the Pointer Sisters were a good example, because they actually started having more and bigger hits about that time, well into the mid '80s. "I'm So Excited" was reissued, and went top 10 that second time out. And they shot videos for nearly all their '80s hits.

I believe you are right that many country performers thought that recording "crossover" tunes sacrificed their integrity with their true, core fans. But I think what killed it for me was when Kenny and Dolly recorded "Islands in the Stream." I hated that song! And yet it was #1 pop! (I don't know how it did on country.) It didn't even matter to me that it was written by the Bee Gees! (I think the Gibbs wrote everything on that particular album by Kenny Rogers.) I can't help but think that I wasn't the only one who felt that way! I really feel like a strong backlash against "Islands in the Stream" killed country crossovers for several years to come after that!

I heard a handful of country songs in the mid to late '80s that probably would have crossed over and become pop hits if they had been released earlier in the '80s. Eddie Rabbitt's cover of "The Wanderer" comes to mind as one example. Kenny and Dolly covered "Love is Strange" after it was re-popularized in Dirty Dancing, but despite the popularity of that movie, no pop radio ever played it.

There is a story I have heard over the years about country singer Ronnie Milsap's hatred of his music getting played on Top 40/ac stations. One story I heard, back in 1983 Ronnie Milsap was doing a concert somewhere in West Virginia. Just before the show he was listneing to one of the local radio stations and heard his song "Any Day Now". Of course that made Ronnie very happy. However the next song to be played was the Go Go's "Our Lips Are Sealed" ( others claim it was something by ELO ). Needless to say Ronnie wasn't very happy as he was so mad he called up that radio station and started screaming to the program director about how "Stupid" it was to mix HIS music beside that rock and roll garbage. Not sure what the reaction by that station was ( did they stop the mix? ) but Ronnie Milsap for a time would slam rock music quite often whenever he did his concerts..calling groups on stage like ELO, The Go Go's, Bananarama and even Pat Benatar "a disease ".

Eddie Rabbit was another country star I have heard who wasn't exactly a fan of rock and roll and I am sure didn't enjoy the fact that some of his music like "I Love A Rainy Night" made the hot 100 charts. One would assume that those singers wouldn't mind who played their music as long as gets played at all. I guess it was not the case.
 
SuperRadioFan said:
firepoint525 said:
But I think what killed it for me was when Kenny and Dolly recorded "Islands in the Stream." I hated that song! And yet it was #1 pop! (I don't know how it did on country.) It didn't even matter to me that it was written by the Bee Gees! (I think the Gibbs wrote everything on that particular album by Kenny Rogers.) I can't help but think that I wasn't the only one who felt that way! I really feel like a strong backlash against "Islands in the Stream" killed country crossovers for several years to come after that!
Visiting this site-- Ya never stop learning. I didn't realize the BeeGees wrote that song. IIRC though "Islands in the Stream" was the #1 song of the year on the Bob Kingsley Country Countdown based on the Billboard charts. Back in those days in the 80s it was typical for almost all the #1 Country songs to spend just 1 week at the top. Many of those songs made a slow slow climb to the top, then after getting there drop off dramatically. It was not unusual to see the #1 song fall to #8 or #9 sometimes out of the Top 10 the very next week. They were usually off the entire Top 40 in a few weeks. So many years in the 80s there would be around 48 different #1 country songs each year. "Islands in the Stream" was at the top for 2 or 3 weeks and that's why it was #1 for the year 1983. The previous year Willie Nelson's "Always on My Mind" was #1 for 2 or 3 weeks and it was the #1 song that year.
I don't fault the Gibbs for falling back on their songwriting (only) during the '80s. Saturday Night Fever and disco created this HUGE anti-BeeGees backlash that followed them throughout most of the '80s. However, they could write, produce, and even sing on, hits for other artists, and those songs would go top 10, if not #1. None of this was ever hidden from the listeners and fans. You could check the songwriting and production credits, and see the Gibbs' names there. You could listen to some of them and even hear Barry's falsetto! :eek: If you ever want to hear the BeeGees' own performance of "Islands in the Stream" (and "Grease," too, for that matter), you can hear them on the One Night Only CD and DVD.

We had a country music DJ at my last station who would classify anything that had already reached its peak position (lost its bullet) as a "recurrent," even if it was still actually on the chart.

Also, if an artist has a new single coming out, many stations will gravitate toward that new single, and drop the previous single from rotation, which will in turn hasten the former single's drop from the charts. And then listeners will start burning up the request lines wanting to hear the new single, which even further hastens the process.
 
bk77 said:
firepoint525 said:
mleach said:
about country crossover hits...Pretty much the only place those "crossover" hits are found today is on country radio. Even our local Light AC station won't play Kenny Rogers' Lady much less Coward of the County. Of course some country songs like "This Kiss" and "Man..I Feel like a woman", I have heard those pop up on some Light Rock and even a few HOT AC stations but then again those versions are different sounding than the same song that gets played on country stations.

Last night my wife and I talked about those crossover hits and how songs like "Elvira" and groups like Alabama found themselves getting played on top 40 stations in the late 70s-early 80s, often as much as they did on country stations.
I believe two factors stopped the practice. One was MTV of course. Even though MTV went on the air in 1981, it really wasnt until the summer/fall of 1982 when a lot of people started to notice them and the whole idea of music videos. Not only did that end those country crossovers but also examples of Barry Manilow, The Carpenters and even The Pointer Sisters having hits on top 40 radio. Barry Manilow for example in the Spring of 1982 had a remake of the Four Seasons song "Lets Hang on" that actually got quite a bit of airplay on such "big" Top 40 stations at the time like Washington DC's Q107 and Baltimore's B-104. A year later both Q107 and B-104 wouldn't be caught dead playing Manilow tune, much less Alabama.

Another reason I have heard why country crossovers "died" was due to the fact that many of those artists, well they hated doing them. While Dolly Parton could have cared less that 9-5 was getting played on many rock stations others didn't share her lack of concerns. Juice Newton, I remember watching an interview with her back then when she made a comment where she said she really didn't like her songs like "Loves Been A Little Bit Hard on Me" getting airplay on rock stations since she felt "safer" in country music.

Oh..Joe Dolce's Shaddap Your Face was a big hit on Buffalo's WKBW as well. Actually the only place I remember hearing that song back then was on KB.
You're right that many current country tunes are written, recorded, mixed and remixed with crossover success in mind. One thing that I have noticed this time around is that it seems that more women are crossing over now, whereas back in the '70s and '80s it was mostly men. Of course, most of these songs are showing up on AC or "lite rock" radio, women-intensive formats.

Interesting theories about why crossovers died out in the early '80s. I both agree and disagree with what you have said here. I believe the rise of heavy metal in the early '80s helped crowd out country music from pop radio. It also crowded off soft-rockers like Air Supply, Captain & Tennille, etc. It may have spelled the end for the Carpenters, too, as you said, but I believe Karen Carpenter was probably already terminally ill by then, so it may not have mattered for them. Manilow actually started "rockin' out" (well, for him, anyway) about that time. Not only "Let's Hang On," which you mentioned, but also "Oh, Julie" and "Some Kind of Friend," the last of which may have cost him some fans! None of those were big hits for him. I don't think the Pointer Sisters were a good example, because they actually started having more and bigger hits about that time, well into the mid '80s. "I'm So Excited" was reissued, and went top 10 that second time out. And they shot videos for nearly all their '80s hits.

I believe you are right that many country performers thought that recording "crossover" tunes sacrificed their integrity with their true, core fans. But I think what killed it for me was when Kenny and Dolly recorded "Islands in the Stream." I hated that song! And yet it was #1 pop! (I don't know how it did on country.) It didn't even matter to me that it was written by the Bee Gees! (I think the Gibbs wrote everything on that particular album by Kenny Rogers.) I can't help but think that I wasn't the only one who felt that way! I really feel like a strong backlash against "Islands in the Stream" killed country crossovers for several years to come after that!

I heard a handful of country songs in the mid to late '80s that probably would have crossed over and become pop hits if they had been released earlier in the '80s. Eddie Rabbitt's cover of "The Wanderer" comes to mind as one example. Kenny and Dolly covered "Love is Strange" after it was re-popularized in Dirty Dancing, but despite the popularity of that movie, no pop radio ever played it.

There is a story I have heard over the years about country singer Ronnie Milsap's hatred of his music getting played on Top 40/ac stations. One story I heard, back in 1983 Ronnie Milsap was doing a concert somewhere in West Virginia. Just before the show he was listneing to one of the local radio stations and heard his song "Any Day Now". Of course that made Ronnie very happy. However the next song to be played was the Go Go's "Our Lips Are Sealed" ( others claim it was something by ELO ). Needless to say Ronnie wasn't very happy as he was so mad he called up that radio station and started screaming to the program director about how "Stupid" it was to mix HIS music beside that rock and roll garbage. Not sure what the reaction by that station was ( did they stop the mix? ) but Ronnie Milsap for a time would slam rock music quite often whenever he did his concerts..calling groups on stage like ELO, The Go Go's, Bananarama and even Pat Benatar "a disease ".

Eddie Rabbit was another country star I have heard who wasn't exactly a fan of rock and roll and I am sure didn't enjoy the fact that some of his music like "I Love A Rainy Night" made the hot 100 charts. One would assume that those singers wouldn't mind who played their music as long as gets played at all. I guess it was not the case.
That's interesting, since Milsap and Rabbitt both did pop/rock covers in the '80s. Milsap did a verse or two of "In the Still of the Night" on "Lost in the '50s Tonight," and Rabbitt, as I mentioned, covered "The Wanderer."
 
Maybe Milsap and Rabbit were big fans of classic rock and roll but didn't like the-then current crop of pop music? Never heard about Milsap calling up radio stations and chewing out those who played his music right next to say Toni Basil but OTOH I have heard that Linda Ronstadt has done a similar thing. In her case its her old stuff. Ever since she went down the standards/Hispanic music route Ronstadt more/less broke all ties from her old rock N roll days ( I think her 1981 tune "I Can't let Go" was the last rock song she ever did, I don't count that duet she did later on with James Ingram "Somewhere Out There" ). And she was known to call up radio stations and yell at them for playing her old stuff like "You're No Good". But I never heard of Milsap doing that.
 
Great stories.

Gee, I wonder how Milsap, Rabbitt and Ronstadt feel NOW, with NO ONE playing their hits? The Oldies / Calssic Hits signals won't touch 'em, Country won't even reference 'em.

Don't bite the hand that feeds you! Why should anyone give a rat's tail because a pop station plays your hit? Just cash your damn royalty checks and consider yourself blessed!

Probably the only $$ Rabbitt sees now is from reissues and airplay of "Kentucky Rain". Shame. "Smokey Mountain Rain" is a fav of mine. But not on Country, AC, oldies, just MOR once in a while...must not "test" well.
 
amfmsw said:
Great stories.

Gee, I wonder how Milsap, Rabbitt and Ronstadt feel NOW, with NO ONE playing their hits? The Oldies / Calssic Hits signals won't touch 'em, Country won't even reference 'em.

Don't bite the hand that feeds you! Why should anyone give a rat's tail because a pop station plays your hit? Just cash your damn royalty checks and consider yourself blessed!

Probably the only $$ Rabbitt sees now is from reissues and airplay of "Kentucky Rain". Shame. "Smokey Mountain Rain" is a fav of mine. But not on Country, AC, oldies, just MOR once in a while...must not "test" well.
Eddie Rabbitt is deceased. Died of cancer in 1998. However, his estate might still be receiving royalty checks on "Kentucky Rain."

I've always thought of "Smoky Mountain Rain" as the Tennessee version of "Kentucky Rain." Both songs involve guys searching for lost loves on rainy days. It would surprise me if country radio no longer plays "Smoky Mountain Rain." ???
 
amfmsw said:
Great stories.

Gee, I wonder how Milsap, Rabbitt and Ronstadt feel NOW, with NO ONE playing their hits? The Oldies / Calssic Hits signals won't touch 'em, Country won't even reference 'em.

Don't bite the hand that feeds you! Why should anyone give a rat's tail because a pop station plays your hit? Just cash your damn royalty checks and consider yourself blessed!

Probably the only $$ Rabbitt sees now is from reissues and airplay of "Kentucky Rain". Shame. "Smokey Mountain Rain" is a fav of mine. But not on Country, AC, oldies, just MOR once in a while...must not "test" well.

In the case of Linda Ronstadt, I am sure she could care less.

Don't bite the hand that feeds you? Madonna does it all the time !! She considers television and radio "poison" and "trash" and will not allow one in her home nor will allow her kids to even set foot in a home that has one. Even though it was radio & TV that helped her launched her carrer !! Where would Madonna be at today had it NOT been for radio and television?
 
amfmsw said:
Great stories.

Gee, I wonder how Milsap, Rabbitt and Ronstadt feel NOW, with NO ONE playing their hits?
Someone doesn't listen to the same stations I do.

Ronnie Milsap and Eddie Rabbitt get played all the time on my country station. I admit I haven't heard Linda lately on my pop station but she does get played. Her new stuff, that is.
 
DavidEduardo said:
TheFonz said:
Classic Top 40 has a nice sound to it. The problem is......................it relates to "charts". Radio programmers go ballistic over that word.

The format already has a name to it, and it is not going to change. Accepted by Arbitron, accepted by the trades, accepted by the industry. There's no real point to debating something that is a fait acomplit.

As to charts, stations make their own based on how people respond to songs today. Yesterday's charts are as useful as yesterday's newspaper... what was news then is not news today. It would be nice if all involved in these discussions realized that radio stations are not museums. We don't play songs that charted in 1971 because they charted then... we play them beccause, in 2008, people like to hear them and, thus, they are hit's TODAY...
I'm still in the habit of thinking of "classic hits" as a rock-based format. This is what is played on WRVA-FM in Raleigh and WXRC-FM in Charlotte. WXRC is somewhat more adventurous than your typical classic hits station, but it's definitely not oldies and you have to call it something. Actually, WXRC's owner has an oldies station that reaches only part of the Charlotte area, and only during the day, which fits the old image of the format.
 
I'm still in the habit of thinking of "classic hits" as a rock-based format. This is what is played on WRVA-FM in Raleigh and WXRC-FM in Charlotte. WXRC is somewhat more adventurous than your typical classic hits station, but it's definitely not oldies and you have to call it something. Actually, WXRC's owner has an oldies station that reaches only part of the Charlotte area, and only during the day, which fits the old image of the format.
[/quote]

Remember that these names are for the benefit of time buyers, not listeners. The idea is to give the ad agencies and major advertisers a way to know in a standardized form what the format of each station is. Since many ad buys are made outside the market where the station is, it's important that there be some way to identify each one.

Of course the definitions are broad. Ad buyers don't care if some of us think that a certain artist is more alternative than AAA. They just want a general idea of what a stations does; this helps the agency decide which stations might be best suited for certain lifestyle promotions, etc.

Classic Rock to the buyer is different from Classic Hits.
 
I knew there were at least two other rock-leaning "classic hits" stations and I couldn't think of them when I did the earlier post.

96.5 the Drive in Fayetteville, NC, and WBIG in Washington, DC. Both markets have oldies. In DC it's satellite, but I don't know whether that's true in Fayetteville.

There was also a station in Myrtle Beach, SC, but they went Jack and then R&B.
 
What if we call the format formerly known as Classic Hits, 'LITE' Classic rock, or 'Classic Rock 'LITE' (lol)....or, maybe 'hip-hits'....Regarding Disco on Classic Hits stations, I think, at this point, they're just pop songs of the era and each should be considered for airplay based on their individual merit and/or test scores.
 
johnsummers said:
What if we call the format formerly known as Classic Hits, 'LITE' Classic rock, or 'Classic Rock 'LITE' (lol)....or, maybe 'hip-hits'....Regarding Disco on Classic Hits stations, I think, at this point, they're just pop songs of the era and each should be considered for airplay based on their individual merit and/or test scores.

1) If it ain't broke, DON'T fix it - in other words...what's wrong with calling a 60s/70s/80s Format "Classic Hits"? :) Why do we even need to re-define the term?

2) Disco songs being played on a "classic hits" station is VERY format-friendly -- since WCBSFM 101.1 came back in 2007, they play a LOT of disco-era songs that were Top 40 hits as well - in fact, Joe Causi's "Saturday Night 70's" show (7 to 11PM on 101.1 and online at www.wcbsfm.com) plays stuff from the disco era not heard on NYC radio in MANY years... 8)

Andrea
 
johnsummers said:
What if we call the format formerly known as Classic Hits, 'LITE' Classic rock, or 'Classic Rock 'LITE' (lol)....or, maybe 'hip-hits'....Regarding Disco on Classic Hits stations, I think, at this point, they're just pop songs of the era and each should be considered for airplay based on their individual merit and/or test scores.

The real point is that the format "names" are mostly used to identify a format genre to ad agency buyers who may not know what each station in a distant market does. They are specific enough for the purpose, which is to allow buyers to understand how to put the best market buy together for their clients.
 
johnsummers said:
What if we call the format formerly known as Classic Hits, 'LITE' Classic rock, or 'Classic Rock 'LITE' (lol)....or, maybe 'hip-hits'....Regarding Disco on Classic Hits stations, I think, at this point, they're just pop songs of the era and each should be considered for airplay based on their individual merit and/or test scores.

I'm sorry, but hopefully the format name "Classic Hits" stands! ;D

I agree with David in his post above mine, but also, format names such as what you suggested would not only change the name, but the format's programming would most likely change as well.
 
andreajesus said:
johnsummers said:
What if we call the format formerly known as Classic Hits, 'LITE' Classic rock, or 'Classic Rock 'LITE' (lol)....or, maybe 'hip-hits'....Regarding Disco on Classic Hits stations, I think, at this point, they're just pop songs of the era and each should be considered for airplay based on their individual merit and/or test scores.

1) If it ain't broke, DON'T fix it - in other words...what's wrong with calling a 60s/70s/80s Format "Classic Hits"? :) Why do we even need to re-define the term?

2) Disco songs being played on a "classic hits" station is VERY format-friendly -- since WCBSFM 101.1 came back in 2007, they play a LOT of disco-era songs that were Top 40 hits as well - in fact, Joe Causi's "Saturday Night 70's" show (7 to 11PM on 101.1 and online at www.wcbsfm.com) plays stuff from the disco era not heard on NYC radio in MANY years... 8)

Andrea

Joe Causi's disco show is now on Sirius-XM 70s on 70 every Saturday evening also.
 
If you study the use of format slogans around the country, you will learn that they predominantly pan out as follows....

If the format is oldies based and includes 60's and/or 60's, along with 70's and early 80's, it's either
-Oldies
or
-The Greatest Hits Of All Time

If the format starts in the late 60's and is predominantly a rock leaning 70's format it is "CLASSIC HITS."
 
AZJoe said:
andreajesus said:
johnsummers said:
What if we call the format formerly known as Classic Hits, 'LITE' Classic rock, or 'Classic Rock 'LITE' (lol)....or, maybe 'hip-hits'....Regarding Disco on Classic Hits stations, I think, at this point, they're just pop songs of the era and each should be considered for airplay based on their individual merit and/or test scores.

1) If it ain't broke, DON'T fix it - in other words...what's wrong with calling a 60s/70s/80s Format "Classic Hits"? :) Why do we even need to re-define the term?

2) Disco songs being played on a "classic hits" station is VERY format-friendly -- since WCBSFM 101.1 came back in 2007, they play a LOT of disco-era songs that were Top 40 hits as well - in fact, Joe Causi's "Saturday Night 70's" show (7 to 11PM on 101.1 and online at www.wcbsfm.com) plays stuff from the disco era not heard on NYC radio in MANY years... 8)

Andrea

Joe Causi's disco show is now on Sirius-XM 70s on 70 every Saturday evening also.

FIRST of all -- the channel is called 70's on 7 ;)

SECONDLY -- if you recall, before the merger, Causi was on The Strobe (classic dance) on Channel 37 - he changed "homes" as of last Wednesday, the 12th, and...

THIRDLY - i'm glad he's on CBSFM, period! His "Saturday Night 70's" show is GREAT - and let's face it - no matter what name you call this music - classic hits, oldies, whatever... - it's just GOOD music, period, and that NEVER GOES OUT OF STYLE!!

Andrea
 
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