Car recording demo of HD stations

[R.F. Burns]

http://download.yousendit.com/F146126A576830C7

Ok, for the non and semi believers heres a recording I made this afternoon in my car. The tape was made on a cassette recorder using a microphone. I turned the treble control all the way up to maximize any interference. The car radio is in a 1995 Saturn. From 00 to 19 seconds is WCBS, from 19 to 30 seconds is WFAN, From 30 to 51 sevonds is WABC, and from 51 to 1:22 is WOR. All four stations were running IBOC generators at the time of the recording. The last recording whihch starts approx 1:22 in is a local station 3rd adjacent to a 50 KW HD station. Other than the fact that the station is 1 KW, in Polish which I don't understand, I would have no trouble listening to this station and I have no trouble with IBOC interference. So there you have it. All the claims of IBOC splash are nonsense unless you are using a defective radio. This is the third radio I've tested and IBOC causes no trouble with it either. C'mon get those demos out so we can all hear what your problems are. If you have problems contact the stations because I've demonstrated that a properly engineered station running IBOC causes NO problem with their analog transmission.

 

[radiopilot]

http://download.yousendit.com/F146126A576830C7

Ok, for the non and semi believers heres a recording I made this afternoon in my car. The tape was made on a cassette recorder using a microphone. I turned the treble control all the way up to maximize any interference. The car radio is in a 1995 Saturn. From 00 to 19 seconds is WCBS, from 19 to 30 seconds is WFAN, From 30 to 51 sevonds is WABC, and from 51 to 1:22 is WOR. All four stations were running IBOC generators at the time of the recording. The last recording whihch starts approx 1:22 in is a local station 3rd adjacent to a 50 KW HD station. Other than the fact that the station is 1 KW, in Polish which I don't understand, I would have no trouble listening to this station and I have no trouble with IBOC interference. So there you have it. All the claims of IBOC splash are nonsense unless you are using a defective radio. This is the third radio I've tested and IBOC causes no trouble with it either. C'mon get those demos out so we can all hear what your problems are. If you have problems contact the stations because I've demonstrated that a properly engineered station running IBOC causes NO problem with their analog transmission.

Now THAT's a real engineering study of a REAL LAB TEST with real equipment using a microphone and a cassette player to do recording in a 1995 Saturn for us 'non and semi believers' as you say coming from an experience engineer of 20 years + (your name here)... Hahahaha.... still laughing at this....

This gets better and better... The FCC needs to give this guy a job in the FCC Labs...

Radiopilot

 

[R.F. Burns]

http://download.yousendit.com/F146126A576830C7

Ok, for the non and semi believers heres a recording I made this afternoon in my car. The tape was made on a cassette recorder using a microphone. I turned the treble control all the way up to maximize any interference. The car radio is in a 1995 Saturn. From 00 to 19 seconds is WCBS, from 19 to 30 seconds is WFAN, From 30 to 51 sevonds is WABC, and from 51 to 1:22 is WOR. All four stations were running IBOC generators at the time of the recording. The last recording whihch starts approx 1:22 in is a local station 3rd adjacent to a 50 KW HD station. Other than the fact that the station is 1 KW, in Polish which I don't understand, I would have no trouble listening to this station and I have no trouble with IBOC interference. So there you have it. All the claims of IBOC splash are nonsense unless you are using a defective radio. This is the third radio I've tested and IBOC causes no trouble with it either. C'mon get those demos out so we can all hear what your problems are. If you have problems contact the stations because I've demonstrated that a properly engineered station running IBOC causes NO problem with their analog transmission.

Now THAT's a real engineering study of a REAL LAB TEST with real equipment using a microphone and a cassette player to do recording in a 1995 Saturn for us 'non and semi believers' as you say coming from an experience engineer of 20 years + (your name here)... Hahahaha.... still laughing at this....

This gets better and better... The FCC needs to give this guy a job in the FCC Labs...

Radiopilot

What are you talking about? You have yet to come up with anything other than accusations. You're right, I'm foolish waisting my time on the likes of you. I could show you a tree and you'd tell me it's a elephant. My demo showed that there is no IBOC audio present under a standard analog radio receiving the analog portion of a compatible IBOC transmission. You can't hear that, go see a doctor because you are hearing things which aren't there. Go ahead and contact the commision and after they laugh at your sillliness they can get on accepting IBOC as the digital standard. Guess it's time for you to find a another hobby.

 

[stevenNOLA]

R.F., Thanks for your work.

Sounds ok to me.

 

[radiopilot]

R.F., Thanks for your work.

Sounds ok to me.

You've got to be kidding me... My wife was here listening to that mush and actually asked if he recorded this file in the shower... and of course this is from WFAN, an HD station....

Please, other audiophiles... download this file and be amazed!

Radiopilot

 

[R.F. Burns]

R.F., Thanks for your work.

Sounds ok to me.

You've got to be kidding me... My wife was here listening to that mush and actually asked if he recorded this file in the shower... and of course this is from WFAN, an HD station....

Please, other audiophiles... download this file and be amazed!

Radiopilot

I won't insult your wife but apparently she didn't understand that this was recoreded in an automobile using a microphone (Sorry no line outs in my car radio). This was done to show that the IBOC sidebands can not be heard under the analog portion of the broadcast. It's obvious you don't have a clue as to what I was demonstrating and it doesn't really matter. Either get used to the new AM BCB or buy another radio or find some other way of entertainning and informing yourself. I used the car radio as an answer to someone saying they heard IBOC all over the lower portion of the AM band in their car. None of that here and if she (your wife) wants to hear what AM sounds like when properly recorded why not polay the IBOC demo I posted a few days ago. If she thinks that audio sounds bad might I suggest an audiologist.

 

[radiopilot]

R.F., Thanks for your work.

Sounds ok to me.

You've got to be kidding me... My wife was here listening to that mush and actually asked if he recorded this file in the shower... and of course this is from WFAN, an HD station....

Please, other audiophiles... download this file and be amazed!

Radiopilot

I won't insult your wife but apparently she didn't understand that this was recoreded in an automobile using a microphone (Sorry no line outs in my car radio). This was done to show that the IBOC sidebands can not be heard under the analog portion of the broadcast. It's obvious you don't have a clue as to what I was demonstrating and it doesn't really matter. Either get used to the new AM BCB or buy another radio or find some other way of entertainning and informing yourself. I used the car radio as an answer to someone saying they heard IBOC all over the lower portion of the AM band in their car. None of that here and if she (your wife) wants to hear what AM sounds like when properly recorded why not polay the IBOC demo I posted a few days ago. If she thinks that audio sounds bad might I suggest an audiologist.

My wife has good hearing thank you... she has her own programming on my station so KNOWS what a quality radio sound should be like... now I see that Tom Wells has a demo also for which no one of the 'HD Cheerleaders' crowd as Dr. Zecchino has described you guys has yet to give your take on it.

Radiopilot

 

[R.F. Burns]

R.F., Thanks for your work.

Sounds ok to me.

You've got to be kidding me... My wife was here listening to that mush and actually asked if he recorded this file in the shower... and of course this is from WFAN, an HD station....

Please, other audiophiles... download this file and be amazed!

Radiopilot

I won't insult your wife but apparently she didn't understand that this was recoreded in an automobile using a microphone (Sorry no line outs in my car radio). This was done to show that the IBOC sidebands can not be heard under the analog portion of the broadcast. It's obvious you don't have a clue as to what I was demonstrating and it doesn't really matter. Either get used to the new AM BCB or buy another radio or find some other way of entertainning and informing yourself. I used the car radio as an answer to someone saying they heard IBOC all over the lower portion of the AM band in their car. None of that here and if she (your wife) wants to hear what AM sounds like when properly recorded why not polay the IBOC demo I posted a few days ago. If she thinks that audio sounds bad might I suggest an audiologist.

My wife has good hearing thank you... she has her own programming on my station so KNOWS what a quality radio sound should be like... now I see that Tom Wells has a demo also for which no one of the 'HD Cheerleaders' crowd as Dr. Zecchino has described you guys has yet to give your take on it.

Radiopilot

Good for her. Do you own the station and are you one of the lower power local or regional broadcasters. Maybe you even take some of our programing. Wouldn't that be amazing?

 

[radiopilot]

[/quote]


Good for her. Do you own the station and are you one of the lower power local or regional broadcasters. Maybe you even take some of our programing. Wouldn't that be amazing?
[/quote]


Is this the best you can do to belittle others?

People know who I am on these boards and other radio boards and they've seen my studio as humble as they may be, of course YOU own that radio studio you work for, but that isn't the issue...

I tried to listen to the audio you've recorded as well as Mike Walker and others, if fact I've even post some recordings of AM I've taken and you can read them elsewhere on this HD board, and as far as I'm concern this HD radio is nothing but pure noise, I've heard good AM & FM in the past and still do as Savannah has not yet given in the the HD crappola....

As far as taking some of the already rotten programming you and others have posted on these boards... forget it... not worth annoying my listeners, oh and I have proven listeners on my Island compared to 'cume' results of listeners on your stations as if they had Nielson boxes to prove that's how many listeners you get on an average hour... how can you tell when a person turns on their radio and tunes to your station? You can't...

Radiopilot

 

[stevenNOLA]

I tried to listen to the audio you've recorded as well as Mike Walker and others, if fact I've even post some recordings of AM I've taken and you can read them elsewhere on this HD board, and as far as I'm concern this HD radio is nothing but pure noise,

Radiopilot

There are options: Satellite radio and FM. Nobody forces you to listen to AM. There are other delivery channels for the same programming.

 

[dumber than a box of hair]

http://download.yousendit.com/F146126A576830C7

Ok, for the non and semi believers heres a recording I made this afternoon in my car. The tape was made on a cassette recorder using a microphone. I turned the treble control all the way up to maximize any interference. The car radio is in a 1995 Saturn. From 00 to 19 seconds is WCBS, from 19 to 30 seconds is WFAN, From 30 to 51 sevonds is WABC, and from 51 to 1:22 is WOR. All four stations were running IBOC generators at the time of the recording. The last recording whihch starts approx 1:22 in is a local station 3rd adjacent to a 50 KW HD station. Other than the fact that the station is 1 KW, in Polish which I don't understand, I would have no trouble listening to this station and I have no trouble with IBOC interference. So there you have it. All the claims of IBOC splash are nonsense unless you are using a defective radio. This is the third radio I've tested and IBOC causes no trouble with it either. C'mon get those demos out so we can all hear what your problems are. If you have problems contact the stations because I've demonstrated that a properly engineered station running IBOC causes NO problem with their analog transmission.

I have close to 40 years in broadcast engineering. I have made literally thousands of repeatable, verifiable measurements using calibrated instruments and scientific principles, and I have never in my life seen such a hasty, ill-conceived, faulty, unscientific conclusion. You have provided:

--No evidence of how you knew that all four stations had their HD carriers up.
--No evidence of your tests of the other two radios you claim you tried.
--No evidence of a frequency-response test of your Saturn radio, the speakers, the cassette recorder or the microphone, so that we could actually tell what frequencies were being reproduced on your radio and your recordings.
--No baseline comparison of your OTA tests against either an HD modulation monitor (such as as the Audemat) or a wideband spectrum analyzer.

But, because YOU have no problems, you make a blanket statement that there are NO problems, period, unless someone's radio is defective. BS. There isn't one single conclusion of yours that was scientifically arrived at and your so-called test proves exactly nothing. Further, your only response when you're criticized seems to be to attack the critics or imply some hidden motives or agendas. You're not doing yourself or your side of this debate any favors.

My view is that HD, particularly on AM, is overblown hype which will destroy whatever usefulness the AM band has left, especially if nighttime HD is approved on Thursday, and you're not doing anything to discourage that view.

 

[Tom Wells]

Umm, I don't have a problem with cassettes and microphones.
As it defines a step in the process of recording, we can dispense with cassette/microphone "effects"
and concern ourselves with the "information".

Science might require test instruments, but this recording satisfies RF (as a proponent) and myself ( as a detractor).
This means it is good, useful material for examination and debate.

This is a good recording, everybody. Use some headphones.
Thank you, RF for turning up the treble, to record all that is present.

I hate to say the sidebands are not fully cancelled, but they aren't.

But all is not lost. Though the hiss (only half of which is the tape) is still present behind the muffled audio, I was able to clean up this recording considerably.
Equalizer: +6 db boost from 30 hz to flat at 200, -3 db from 200 to 4000, and +3db from 4000 up
Expansion 1.1 to 1 ratio, at 75%.
Analog real-time DNR noise reduction set to 80%. ( Dynamic Noise Reduction by National Semiconductor)

The effect of the tape's hiss (very minimal) shows up as artificial highs ADDING considerable sharpness when defined by the
"cut ratio" of the DNR.

This is somewhat obtrusive in headphones, but from a speaker, the result is a decided improvement.

I will try to e-mail this file to RF or Mike Walker.
Just before and after the 1-minute mark, I switch on and off the DNR and the hiss (and its absence) are dramatic.
Of course, such processing is only available here at home, not all radios.

I now wonder if anyone has an old GM Delco radio with the DNR button on it. ( Or still drives such an old beast.)
It was fantastic for reducing hiss on FM, and I bet it might be a real improvement now that AM has hiss to contend with.

If only those sidebands started out beyond 10 khz, we could use processing to fully restore the analog.
But the whole signal would need to be a full 60 khz wide.

 

[EasyPeazy]

My wife has good hearing thank you... she has her own programming on my station so KNOWS what a quality radio sound should be like... now I see that Tom Wells has a demo also for which no one of the 'HD Cheerleaders' crowd as Dr. Zecchino has described you guys has yet to give your take on it.

Radiopilot

Because nothing has a lower noise floor than a Radio Shack wannabee DJ mixer manufactured by Pyramid! Now THAT'S quality sound!

Kudos to R.F. for taking the time.

 

[Tom Wells]

Ok, I have posted the "cleaned" version on Pod-O-Matic.
hope this works.......

http://thomasjwells.podOmatic.com/entry/eg/2007-03-20T20_25_15-07_00

 

[EasyPeazy]

Ok, I have posted the "cleaned" version on Pod-O-Matic.
hope this works.......

http://thomasjwells.podOmatic.com/entry/eg/2007-03-20T20_25_15-07_00

I have to admit. It might be hard for a golden eared audiophile with a pair of Stax headphones to listen to an analog AM station airing Sean Hannity with IBOC turned on.

But how many golden eared audiophiles are listening to Sean Hannity?

I suspect most Hannity listening occurs in cars and in work environments.

 

[Tom Wells]

I have to admit. It might be hard for a golden eared audiophile with a pair of Stax headphones to listen to an analog AM station airing Sean Hannity with IBOC turned on.

But how many golden eared audiophiles are listening to Sean Hannity?

I suspect most Hannity listening occurs in cars and in work environments.

Agreed. That is why I processed to the best effect with speakers.
As it is sharper, it could better be heard in the car or workplace, if so much processing weren't involved.
I just wanted to see what I could do with the audio.
It actually sounds better than a live AM tuner HD signal with the same processing.
It may have to do with the artificial highs derived from tape hiss.

Mr Burns, what type of tape, recorder, microphone, placement and volume level were used?
I'm not criticizing, just looking for more data.
And in playback, can you tell us if the auto level on the recorder gave you "full peaks" on tape levels?
It does sound like there was more headroom available on the tape, as most potables do not saturate tape unless you set levels manually.
The last clip in Polish seems to have the best overall balance and diction.
The Big Guns seem flat and have far less defined crispness.

 

[Mike Walker]

EARS ARE NOT LABORATORY INSTRUMENTS. Now laboratory instruments are great. They can show the presence, or absence of spurious content, and suggest what we may (or may not) hear. But unless the ultimate goal of testing is to WATCH radio signals on a scope or computer screen, then the BEST method of determining what extra HD information (riding piggyback with the analog signal) means TO THE LISTENER is by LISTENING.

Who would read an audio magazine where they only measured, and never actually LISTENED to the components under test? (Or vice versa?) Who would read a car magazine where they measured horsepower, interior noise, and other aspects of performance, BUT NEVER DROVE IT? What RF did was take the claims of interference FOR A TEST DRIVE in the real world. If the interference from HD IS REAL, you should be able to do the same, and SHOW US YOUR RESULTS as RF did.

The AM band is full of interference already. Noise from flourescent lights/computers/tvs/light dimmers, etc. EVERY HOME IS FULL OF INTERFERENCE-GENERATING DEVICES. Does this mean that you won't be able to listen to your chosen station under the conditions that exist in your home? NO TEST INSTRUMENTS WILL SHOW YOU THAT! They can only suggest an answer. The only way to know for sure IS TO LISTEN. Exactly what RF did.

It's about the LISTENING experience, and the only way to test that is by LISTENING.

 

[calstymes]

Wow!

radiopilot suggested:

The FCC needs to give this guy a job in the FCC Labs...

I suspect that he's already got an excellent job which doesn't require wearing a lab coat. Why would anyone want to wear one of those when he doesn't have to?

R.F. Burns postulated:

Maybe you even take some of our programing. Wouldn't that be amazing?

Careful now, otherwise you'll give it away!

StevenNOLA pointed out:

There are options: Satellite radio and FM. Nobody forces you to listen to AM.

But iBiQuity is attempting to force me to dispose of my AM radio because I hear noise on it now where I didn't hear it before. How is this fair to me or consumers in general?? My disclaimer: I'm sorry but I have no recording equipment available with which to record an "air check". The recording head in my Wollensak stopped functioning many years ago.

dumber than a box of hair flatly stated:

because YOU have no problems, you make a blanket statement that there are NO problems, period, unless someone's radio is defective. BS.

Thank you, thank you, thank you! I have been saying this for months now. Unfortunately, these people won't even concede that there MIGHT be a problem. It's very sad that just because they don't experience a particular problem they think that any reports of it from elsewhere are bogus.

And Tom Wells observed:

The last clip in Polish seems to have the best overall balance and diction.
The Big Guns seem flat and have far less defined crispness.

Hmmm, you think so?? Yes, the quality of the analog audio is pretty blah sounding when that buzz is on, wouldn't you say?

But it is interesting that you should call attention to the Polish clip. Although R.F. never told us where his automobile was located when he made the recording I will suggest here that it was in his home county which is also where the transmitter of that Polish station is located. Perhaps next time, R.F. can travel east (away from that station's transmitter), cross the river, go in a little ways and then record another Polish clip if he can. It must be during the daylight hours of course.

 

[Mike Walker]

I would love to hear these tests repeated (by someone who lives near some HD AM stations. I don't, and as a reult have no data...audio or measurements to contribute) say 50 miles from the nearest AM, tuning through the 1st and 2nd adjacent channels to some of the big HD signals. If there's no "buzz" under THESE conditions (because under these conditions the andlog AM's AGC will be "pumping up the volume", thus bringing up whatever background sounds are present), I'll be a lot closer to being convinced. Anyone here live, say 50-75 miles out from an AM HD station, and able to perform such a test?

 

[SUPERCASTER]

http://download.yousendit.com/F146126A576830C7

Ok, for the non and semi believers heres a recording I made this afternoon in my car. The tape was made on a cassette recorder using a microphone. I turned the treble control all the way up to maximize any interference. The car radio is in a 1995 Saturn. From 00 to 19 seconds is WCBS, from 19 to 30 seconds is WFAN, From 30 to 51 sevonds is WABC, and from 51 to 1:22 is WOR. All four stations were running IBOC generators at the time of the recording. The last recording whihch starts approx 1:22 in is a local station 3rd adjacent to a 50 KW HD station. Other than the fact that the station is 1 KW, in Polish which I don't understand, I would have no trouble listening to this station and I have no trouble with IBOC interference. So there you have it. All the claims of IBOC splash are nonsense unless you are using a defective radio. This is the third radio I've tested and IBOC causes no trouble with it either. C'mon get those demos out so we can all hear what your problems are. If you have problems contact the stations because I've demonstrated that a properly engineered station running IBOC causes NO problem with their analog transmission.

You claim you can diagnose that my radios are broken and conclusively prove that IBOC/HD Radio causes no problems, anywhere, by making a cassette recording with a microphone of selected stations recorded off of a car radio in New York?

This is complete nonsense, and has absolutely zero credibility.

Have you tried peddling your tapes to the Psychic Friends Network?