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Carly Simon is classic rock?

DavidEduardo said:
Not uniformly or universally true. There are artists who like to have hits and once they do, they follow that general formula that got them there.

Some artists start with a formula, and then go off on tangents and angles: witness the four split up Beatles.

Other artists, such as Niel Sedaka, would thrive on popularity and look for the next hit, not "something different". And there were artists, such as the majority of Motown stars or the Phil Spector-mentored "wall of sound ones, who followed a producer or mentor's guidance (and there are many who stopped being "guided" and became musical road kill).

Another example: Barry Manilow. He did commercial jingles and did not think of himself as a mass-appeal singer. He liked preparing clever stuff to sell products, and fell into being a hit artist. Now, he thrives and enjoys doing his stage shows because he likes making his audiences have a great experience. I was never a Manilow fan when he had all the hits, but I saw two of his shows at our local venue as part of my membership subscription and realized how much he liked putting on the show for us... from dress to staging to the songs he was "into" making the audience happy.

So to say that musicians are not motivated by anything but art is very oversimplified. Any artist back in the 70's who broke into the Top 10 on WABC or KHJ or WLS was going to be pretty excited and thrilled that so many people were hearing their song.
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Which is why I said "True" artists. There are plenty of hacks. Mike Love hated the fact that Brian Wilson wanted to grow. Love wanted the Beach Boys formula of songs about cars and girls to continue. Wilson wanted to explore on "Pet Sounds". It's regarded as a masterpiece, but wasn't a commercial success at the time. The late 60s was an amazing time for musical growth. Miles Davis, Beatles, and countless others broke new ground.

I agree that not all musicians are motivated by the same things...
 
DavidEduardo said:
Not uniformly or universally true. There are artists who like to have hits and once they do, they follow that general formula that got them there.

Some artists start with a formula, and then go off on tangents and angles: witness the four split up Beatles.

Other artists, such as Niel Sedaka, would thrive on popularity and look for the next hit, not "something different". And there were artists, such as the majority of Motown stars or the Phil Spector-mentored "wall of sound ones, who followed a producer or mentor's guidance (and there are many who stopped being "guided" and became musical road kill).

Another example: Barry Manilow. He did commercial jingles and did not think of himself as a mass-appeal singer. He liked preparing clever stuff to sell products, and fell into being a hit artist. Now, he thrives and enjoys doing his stage shows because he likes making his audiences have a great experience. I was never a Manilow fan when he had all the hits, but I saw two of his shows at our local venue as part of my membership subscription and realized how much he liked putting on the show for us... from dress to staging to the songs he was "into" making the audience happy.

So to say that musicians are not motivated by anything but art is very oversimplified. Any artist back in the 70's who broke into the Top 10 on WABC or KHJ or WLS was going to be pretty excited and thrilled that so many people were hearing their song.
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The trick was to do it without killing your FM credibility by being commercially successful.
 
michael hagerty said:
Clearly not, and none of those artists got FM rock airplay.
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And the purist Top 40's did not play Sinatra, either, and were very careful about Campbell and even Goldsboro.

It's good to remember that Top 40 evolved into pop and rock music. The format was based on "hits" and not "style". Doris day and Patti Page were played at KOWH in 1951. And that is why, about a decade later, we got Dominico Modugno and the Flying Nun... vestiges of the heritage of Top 40 from its earliest years.

FM rock was based on being everything Top 40 was not. It was the antithesis of Top 40, in fact. Some formats were "anything you can do I can do better" but rock was "anything you do I won't do at all and then brag about it."
 
michael hagerty said:
I know the question was for Mediafrog, but...

The topic isn't any of those artists. No one suggested any of those artists were "classic rock". Denver and Aretha got airplay on FM rock stations, but for both of them, it was largely over by '72.
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Okay but hold on there. Are you saying that Carly Simon is considered different than Cher, Glen Campbell, Corey Hart, or John Denver? Seriously? If so, you have to agree this boils down to personal taste, nothing official.
michael hagerty said:
James Taylor did get both contemporary FM rock airplay in the 70s and classic rock (the format) airplay in the 80s and beyond. In fact, his 2020 tour had sponsorships from classic rock stations in the cities where he played.
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But is James Taylor also considered rock?
 
DavidEduardo said:
To Abrams credit, he discovered what would be a trend... big cuts off of big albums... when still in North Carolina around 1983. So the concept of "Superstars"... playing just the "hit cuts" by big acts rather than exploring deep cuts live on the air for the hell of it... took off because it had enough variety not to be Top 40 but also played really good songs.
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David: Superstars goes back further than that---'76/'77. By 1978, it was successful enough that Record World had a full Burkhart/Abrams supplement describing the history and the current state of the concept and the consultancy:


One of the things that was in there that I had forgotten was that Burkhart/Abrams had tried not to throw away the older young adult audience for (in Lee's words) "Jackson Browne, James Taylor and Fleetwood Mac", and created a spinoff called "Soft Superstars" targeting 18-24 women and 25-34 adults.

But he launched on WKTU, New York, which jumped to disco soon after (using Burkhart/Abrams to consult---fascinating read here: ‘Doctors’ Who Prescribe For Ailing Radio Stations (Published 1979) ) and KPOL, Los Angeles, which had already developed their own soft rock format and really just wanted Abrams' advice, not to let him take over. So it stalled out.

A few months later, Lee was in R&R (I posted the link in the first few pages of this thread) talking about phasing out everything but the "real" rock and roll by 1980 (which is where some people's recollection of FM rock stations seems to begin).
 
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DavidEduardo said:
I don't want to be a cheerleader to a food fight, but...

... "all" the rock stations in that era thought Carly fit the rock format in that moment of time. Therefore, in, let's say, 1971, Carly was a rock artist.

In the early years (late 60's and earliest 70's) "rock" stations were more about playing stuff that Top 40 did not play and sounding less "motor mouth" in the presentation. When Top 40 started playing Carly, we note that rock stations stopped. That was not a coincidence
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David, you seem to have missed the dozen or so posts showing that FM rock stations did not stop playing Carly Simon until at least after "Playing Possum" in 1975.

And now that you've broken out the pom-poms at this here food fight, I had to go one step further and find that, in fact, her 1976 album "Another Passenger", which was a commercial failure, got enough airplay to make #9 on the R&R Album Airplay 30 on July 9, 1976.

And----sonofagun (get it?)---"Another Passenger" stiffing didn't kill her. She managed top 10 again on the R&R album Airplay 30 for "Boys In The Trees" in 1978 and came in at #37 on the R&R Top Airplay Albums for that year:


Even "Spy"---her stiff LP from 1979---managed three weeks on the Album Airplay 30.

So, from her debut album in 1971 through 1979, Carly Simon was getting regular and in all cases but the last LP, significant play on FM rock stations.

Given that Top 40 started playing Carly in 1971, it's clearly not true that rock stations stopped then. Or at any time before 1979. And all those facts come from your (tremendous) website.
 
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michael hagerty said:
David: Superstars goes back further than that---'76/'77. By 1978, it was successful enough that Record World had a full Burkhart/Abrams supplement describing the history and the current state of the concept and the consultancy:


One of the things that was in there that I had forgotten was that Burkhart/Abrams had tried not to throw away the older young adult audience for (in Lee's words) "Jackson Browne, James Taylor and Fleetwood Mac", and created a spinoff called "Soft Superstars" targeting 18-24 women and 25-34 adults.

But he launched on WKTU, New York, which jumped to disco soon after (using Burkhart/Abrams to consult---fascinating read here: ‘Doctors’ Who Prescribe For Ailing Radio Stations (Published 1979) ) and KPOL, Los Angeles, which had already developed their own soft rock format and really just wanted Abrams advice, not to let him take over. So it stalled out.

A few months later, Lee was in R&R (I posted the link in the first few pages of this thread) talking about phasing out everything but the "real" rock and roll by 1980 (which is where some people's recollection of FM rock stations seems to begin).
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My bad... I meant 1973. At one of the Hamilton "conventions" (which should have been written "convections" in reference to the need for really good ventilation...) I sat in Lee's room as he changed for the evening buffet and he described quite openly how the issue was not just playing the hits but also creating a brand based on the sum of the ingredients. I remember thinking that he was not a programmer but a "chef" who took prime ingredients and used them with art and skill.

(He was also able to use the "F" word more than once in single sentences and make it seem natural).
 
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Kelly A said:
Okay but hold on there. Are you saying that Carly Simon is considered different than Cher, Glen Campbell, Corey Hart, or John Denver? Seriously? If so, you have to agree this boils down to personal taste, nothing official.

But is James Taylor also considered rock?
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Kelly, for you, it has NEVER been about anything other than personal taste. And I've never stated mine anywhere in this thread. I've simply produced facts that FM rock radio considered Carly Simon appropriate for their stations (and as I found in responding to David, not just through 1975---but through 1979).

Do you know why Carly Simon is considered different than Cher, Glen Campbell, Corey Hart (how'd HE get in here?) or John Denver?

Because only Carly Simon got airplay---regular, consistent and significant airplay on EVERY one of her albums of the 1970s on FM rock stations nationwide.

And so did James Taylor.
 
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michael hagerty said:
But he launched on WKTU, New York, which jumped to disco soon after (using Burkhart/Abrams to consult---fascinating read here: ‘Doctors’ Who Prescribe For Ailing Radio Stations (Published 1979) ) and KPOL, Los Angeles, which had already developed their own soft rock format and really just wanted Abrams advice, not to let him take over. So it stalled out.
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There is a controversy about the origins of 'KTU's disco format. Those inside the station claimed that they created it based on the NYC club scene, and that Burkhart/Abrams jumped in later to technify and research it and to syndicate the concept. I think that asking some of the folks directly involved might clarify.
michael hagerty said:
A few months later, Lee was in R&R (I posted the link in the first few pages of this thread) talking about phasing out everything but the "real" rock and roll by 1980 (which is where some people's recollection of FM rock stations seems to begin).
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Agreed. This may have been a reaction to the sort of Yacht Rock spill over into CHR where we had REO Speedwagon topping the charts at normally rhythmic CHR stations like Y-100; I think that this tainted the image of rock bands and caused a previously less distinct division of styles.
 
michael hagerty said:
David---memory can't stand up to facts. Find me the "purist" Top 40s that passed on "Somethin' Stupid", "Wichita Lineman" and "Honey".
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Those were exceptions... which make it obvious that those artists did not always get Top 40 play.

I played Nancy and "Honey" on my Top 40 towards the later 60's. Campbell was too country to get airplay then. Heck, we even did a voiceover on "Honey" where we did a Spanish translation of the song by building instrumental bridges between verses for the translation and it was about our most requested song for about 4 weeks!

An interesting way to evaluate Top 40 songs is to see which were hits outside of the US, Canada and, usually, England. Those that were too MOR, too ethnic, too country and too lifestyle just did not make it anywhere else. (That does not explain Cliff Richards, though).
 
michael hagerty said:
These weren't FM folk stations, Kelly.
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While the name "Superstars" ´puts emphasis on artists, radio airplay is not really artist based... we play songs BY artists. And we don't automatically add a song because it is by a particular artist. However, given two songs we like for a single add position, we go with the name artist as that helps sell the new song. The distinctions are not binary.

There are a lot of nuances even within a single radio format or genre. Every pointillist is not the same, and a pointillist is not the same as an impressionist, despite exhibits often associating or combining works from both sets.
 
DavidEduardo said:
Those were exceptions... which make it obvious that those artists did not always get Top 40 play.

I played Nancy and "Honey" on my Top 40 towards the later 60's. Campbell was too country to get airplay then. Heck, we even did a voiceover on "Honey" where we did a Spanish translation of the song by building instrumental bridges between verses for the translation and it was about our most requested song for about 4 weeks!

An interesting way to evaluate Top 40 songs is to see which were hits outside of the US, Canada and, usually, England. Those that were too MOR, too ethnic, too country and too lifestyle just did not make it anywhere else. (That does not explain Cliff Richards, though).
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I should have been more specific---find me the "purist" U.S. Top 40s that passed on "Somethin' Stupid, "Wichita Lineman" and "Honey". All three were huge hits.

Beyond Nancy and Frank's duet, five of Frank's singles made the KHJ Boss 30. "It Was A Very Good Year" peaked at #25. "Strangers in the Night", "That's Life", "Cycles" and "My Way" all went top 10.

Nine Glen Campbell singles made the Boss 30 in 38 months. Five of them were top 10.

And seven Bobby Goldsboro singles did the same, though Honey (which made #1) was the only one to do better than #13.

I know you have your thoughts about Drake's bagmen, but looking at nationwide station charts at ARSA-Las Solanas shows that pretty much every U.S. Top 40 station went with these records.
 
Kelly A said:
You're avoiding the question. James Taylor was getting Top40 airplay (Your Smiling Face) around the same time as Carly Simon. Does that make James Taylor music Rock?
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I'm not avoiding the question. You're avoiding the answer. Top 40 airplay doesn't make an artist rock and you know that. But FM rock stations considered every James Taylor album of the 1970s worthy of regular, consistent and significant airplay.
 
DavidEduardo said:
This may have been a reaction to the sort of Yacht Rock spill over into CHR where we had REO Speedwagon topping the charts at normally rhythmic CHR stations like Y-100; I think that this tainted the image of rock bands and caused a previously less distinct division of styles.
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Just for fun, I decided to pull up the issue of R&R where Abrams says he's dumping the softer stuff. Not only were CHR stations playing artists that had been the province of FM rock stations, I was programming an Adult Contemporary AM at the time (April 27, 1979) and I was playing Supertramp, The Doobie Brothers, Dire Straits, Rickie Lee Jones, George Harrison, Poco, Bob Welch, Orleans and George Benson (all listed in that week's Album Airplay 40).
 
michael hagerty said:
Just for fun, I decided to pull up the issue of R&R where Abrams says he's dumping the softer stuff. Not only were CHR stations playing artists that had been the province of FM rock stations, I was programming an Adult Contemporary AM at the time (April 27, 1979) and I was playing Supertramp, The Doobie Brothers, Dire Straits, Rickie Lee Jones, George Harrison, Poco, Bob Welch, Orleans and George Benson (all listed in that week's Album Airplay 40).
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But does that make all those artists/bands rock?
 
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