Carmakers Against HD-Satellite Radio Combo

[Carmine5]

HD Radio seems to be the only digital audio delivery system that came out of the oven half-baked--in spite of its lengthy baking time (12+ years). It is still a work-in-progress.

All technology is a "work in progress" unless it's considered obsolete. Kodak is no longer working on film based tech. How much development do you "think" is being done on audio/video cassette?

And each change in the specification brings with it an obsolescence of any HD-R product prior to it.

Even the current generation of HD radio is of the "smart" remote upgradeable design.

You might want to back off on the bias and check your facts first.

Lino

Oh and BTW, Kodak has just recently introduced a new line of color negative film called Portra and new line of motion picture film stock called Vision 3. Film is still a major part of their business, especially with professional still photographers and the motion picture industry.

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/products/films/portra/400main.jhtml

http://motion.kodak.com/US/en/motion/Products/index.htm

Maybe YOU need to check your facts.

C5

And I stand corrected on MP film, however you might want to read these and understand the facts:

http://wsjclassroom.com/archive/05nov/mktg_kodak.htm

Kodak has outlined a plan to phase out film operations, while building up digital sales in medical imaging and commercial printing as well as consumer digital lines

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4188/is_20070208/ai_n17228427

Quoting Antonio Perez Kodak CEO "Film is going to follow its own destiny," he said. "Right now, entertainment (motion-picture) imaging is very stable, is very good for the company. ... If that goes digital, which eventually I believe it will, then we'll do something else. We will do what's better for the shareholders."

From the above article: It (Kodak) is now eliminating 28,000 to 30,000 jobs by year-end, with 23,300 already axed. And the sale of its 111-year-old health unit -- intended to help fund its bold leap into the inkjet printer market - - will strip another 8,100 jobs. That will shrink its payroll to around 30,000, its lowest level since the 1930s.

Reads like AM radio doesn't it.

Then we have these remarks of yours:

The first HD Radios to appear did not have HD2/HD3 tuning capabilities. No "stations between stations."

Concerning conditional access, we have this quote from a Radio World article dated 3/28/07:

"Equally important, with conditional access, reading service users could listen on next-generation HD Radios instead of the specialized SCA-capable units they use now. Current HD Radios could not be retrofitted for this purpose, D’Angelo said."

http://www.rwonline.com/pages/s.0049/t.4028.html

So there's no bias here.

The question is, what new services will the geniuses at Ibiquity come up with that will obsolete current HD Radios? I'm sure you'll be anxious to know.

Well, if you read the article w/out your bias you find that "conditional access" will most likely be used, if at all, for certain copyright situations and to lure the "great" Howard Stern back to radio. what a joke. Overall, the Satellite dilemma has probably squelched any move toward pay radio.

BTW: the first consumer hd radios went on sale in early 2004 with the first multicast capable debuting in Sept 2005.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_2005_Sept_6/ai_n15345987?tag=untagged

Anyway, if iboc is the flop you claim, there is nothing to worry about. Lino

Back in film's heyday, Kodak had hundreds of film products most of which were designed for specialized purposes. But with the declining use of film, Kodak has narrowed its product lines to just a few films that are formulated to do more. The new films are more versatile.

But with just a few film products the need for factory space, machines and personal has diminished. This makes it appear as if Kodak is transitioning out of the film business instead of merely simplifying their product line. For now, film is still going strong (at least among pros) but, someday, it will go away entirely.

As for conditional access, it's probably the most interesting aspect of HD Radio in terms of the potential it has for providing necessary services.

And contrary to what you think, I'm not hoping HD Radio will flop. I just think it's a shame that Ibiquity didn't come out of the gate with a stronger product. From the start, HD Radio should have been as easy to purchase and as easy to implement as FMeXtra is.

But I think HD Radio will be with us for as long as terrestrial radio will be. It may even grow to some extent before it is eventually replaced with something better.

C5

 

[clouseau]

<snip>

...As for conditional access, it's probably the most interesting aspect of HD Radio in terms of the potential it has for providing necessary services.

I get your point, but I disagree. It may be the most interesting, but it strikes me it's pretty worthless. However in fairness. maybe we havent found the "Killer Use" for conditional access. Still, It's availability does have potential.

And contrary to what you think, I'm not hoping HD Radio will flop. I just think it's a shame that Ibiquity didn't come out of the gate with a stronger product. From the start, HD Radio should have been as easy to purchase and as easy to implement as FMeXtra is.

WOW. What an insightful comment.

Where would we have been with that system and a set of rules that would get AM on FMX subs and translators. Still. We have what we have...

But I think HD Radio will be with us for as long as terrestrial radio will be. It may even grow to some extent before it is eventually replaced with something better.

C5

Interesting thought. Perhaps better planning would have produced a better product. And who knows. Maybe the solution to the AM broadcaster's problem is political and not technical. As in relocation. Oh well. Good thoughts. Where were we all 5 years ago?...

Clouseau

 

[Savage]

Well, Inspector, I can't answer for you or others on this board. But I was filing comments with the FCC objecting to the potential for skywave IBOC interference and warning that the iBiquity HD licensing scheme was a de facto usurpation of the Commission's authority to regulate radio broadcasting.

I know hundreds of others filed similar comments. They were all ignored by the same Commission that's ignoring today's interference complaints.

 

[Carmine5]

Well it looks as if the NAB and the HD Alliance have lost.

"Report: XM-Sirius Approval Imminent"

http://www.radioink.com/HeadlineEntry.asp?hid=142949&pt=todaysnews

Commissioner Adelstein, as we know, voted against the merger.

According to R&R:

"Adelstein wanted to prevent the new satellite entity from dictating the marketplace and insisted that all new satellite radio receivers incorporate HD Radio technology."

Now, instead of a definitive answer on including HD Radio in future satellite receivers, they'll have to settle for only a vague promise.

C5

 

[TheBigA]

Well it looks as if the NAB and the HD Alliance have lost.

I don't know if it's a win/lose proposition.

When you deal with the government, it's often like a baseball manager complaining to an umpire. They're not going to change their decision, but they'll give you a credit towards their next decision, if you know what I mean.

That's all this was. Lots of people and groups filed opinions, and that's what you're supposed to do. But there are a lot of bigger issues on the table.

I felt a better approach would have been to extend must-carry rules that cable and satellite TV follow in local TV for radio. That would have made sense. That still may happen, as the merged company looks for much cheaper content.

 

[Mike Walker]

Wanna' see how "strong" film is going (among pros, or any other market segment)? Pick up a photo magazine, and try to find an ad for a film camera. You might be shocked. Film, yes...for old farts (like me) with an investment in cameras and lenses. But new cameras? You might as well be searching for "hen's teeth".

The line is drawn in the sand. Older people (particularly those 55+)...film is still strong. Younger people, and just about all new camera buyers...DIGITAL. And that's in EVERY market segment.

Take a look at blowups done by magazines like Popular Photography. Digital FAR exceeds 35mm film in resolving fine details, and expensive "medium-format" digital cameras (an oxymoron for digital!) are beginning to exceed even very large format film cameras for finely detailed work like landscapes, wedding photography, etc.

Film still has a slight advantage in "dynamic range"...the ability to capture very bright highlights, and very dark shadows (for instance) in the same shot. But digital is very close there as well.

 

[dumber than a box of hair]

Now, instead of a definitive answer on including HD Radio in future satellite receivers, they'll have to settle for only a vague promise.

Promises don't mean a damn thing. HD's "definitive answer" will come from either:

1) surviving in the marketplace all on its own, instead of having it shoved down our throats by government edict, or

2) starting to do what the satrad manufacturers did: make the car manufacturers "partners" with the HD radio manufacturers (otherwise known as "pay them to put our radios in").

Funny how iBiquity thought this was the way to gain parity in the dashboard (another way of saying, "our business model is a failure, so we'll just get clueless lawmakers and tin-god commissioners to do our dirty work for us"). Funny how the two largest auto manufacturers on the planet said, to that attempted power grab, "thanks, but no thanks...it's a bad idea." Funny how neither XM nor Sirius nor any of the companies that make their radios felt the need to run to the government, begging to be forced into new cars.

 

[TheBigA]

Funny how neither XM nor Sirius nor any of the companies that make their radios felt the need to run to the government, begging to be forced into new cars.

No. Instead they paid the auto companies tons of money, and now XM & Sirius are in so much debt because of their wild spending they need to merge. So they felt the need to run to the government for a bail out.

I was a stockholder in XM for a few years. Thankfully I got out before the collapse. The reason I did was I read the specifics about the deals they made with auto companies. It would have been way cheaper to go to Congress and ask for parity with terrestrial radio. Personally, I think that's the only fair and equitable solution.

 

[Carmine5]

Well it looks as if the NAB and the HD Alliance have lost.

I don't know if it's a win/lose proposition.

When you deal with the government, it's often like a baseball manager complaining to an umpire. They're not going to change their decision, but they'll give you a credit towards their next decision, if you know what I mean.

That's all this was. Lots of people and groups filed opinions, and that's what you're supposed to do. But there are a lot of bigger issues on the table.

I felt a better approach would have been to extend must-carry rules that cable and satellite TV follow in local TV for radio. That would have made sense. That still may happen, as the merged company looks for much cheaper content.

It may be more of a wash.

Commissioner Adelstein wanted about 1/4 of the satellite spectrum open to other broadcast entities. I'm not sure I want that many potentially free satellite radio channels competing with terrestrial radio. As it stands, only about 8% is being opened up, and mostly to minorities and non-com.

Instead of mandatory HD Radio for cars, what we will probably see are compatible satellite receivers that are "HD Radio Ready", which, as we all know, means buying another box to fit under the dash. Not an attractive option.

C5

 

[dumber than a box of hair]

Funny how neither XM nor Sirius nor any of the companies that make their radios felt the need to run to the government, begging to be forced into new cars.

No. Instead they paid the auto companies tons of money, and now XM & Sirius are in so much debt because of their wild spending they need to merge. So they felt the need to run to the government for a bail out.

They ran to the government to APPLY (OKA "ask") to have the rules changed...and were both prepared to move on if it wasn't approved. A far cry from having regulators force HD radios into places the auto manufacturers didn't want them.

I was a stockholder in XM for a few years. Thankfully I got out before the collapse. The reason I did was I read the specifics about the deals they made with auto companies. It would have been way cheaper to go to Congress and ask for parity with terrestrial radio. Personally, I think that's the only fair and equitable solution.

It's fair and equitable to get government to do your dirty work when your product/service isn't making it on its own? Government has enough trouble getting out of its own way on everything else. Why do we need them involved in deciding what kind of receiver I have in my car? The satrad companies did what they had to do. iBiquity collects five figures worth of license fees for every encoder sold, and millions of dollars in license fees for receiver chips...yet they B&M to the government because their receivers aren't as ubiquitous as satellite radios. It's a bit difficult for me to have very much sympathy for them.

 

[TheBigA]

It's fair and equitable to get government to do your dirty work when your product/service isn't making it on its own?

How much profit have the satellite radio companies made? I rest my case.

Look, neither of these ideas are going anywhere. And when you look at the finances of internet radio, coupled with the greed of the isps, the business will be toast in five years.

 

[KB1OKL]

It's fair and equitable to get government to do your dirty work when your product/service isn't making it on its own?

How much profit have the satellite radio companies made? I rest my case.

I don't think that's the point, Satrad is having a hard time on it's own (with NAB making it much harder) why should they have to fight frivolous law suits (putting IBOC in Satrad radios) NAB is just trying to keep them from going to market hoping that they'll die in the meantime as HD has done. Time is money and technology marches very quickly today.

 

[TheBigA]

Satrad is having a hard time on it's own (with NAB making it much harder) why should they have to fight frivolous law suits (putting IBOC in Satrad radios)

No one is suing them to put IBOC on their radios. It was simply a proposal that a few Congressmen made.

Most of Satrad's problems are of their own doing. They didn't have to incur the huge debt they have. They didn't have to give away the store to the car companies. They didn't have to sign outrageous deals for content. And when they saw the merger was running into trouble, they didn't have to hold the course for 20 months.

If a terrestrial broadcasting company operated the way they have, you'd all be howling about mis-management and stupidity.

 

[KB1OKL]

Satrad is having a hard time on it's own (with NAB making it much harder) why should they have to fight frivolous law suits (putting IBOC in Satrad radios)

No one is suing them to put IBOC on their radios. It was simply a proposal that a few Congressmen made.

Most of Satrad's problems are of their own doing. They didn't have to incur the huge debt they have. They didn't have to give away the store to the car companies. They didn't have to sign outrageous deals for content. And when they saw the merger was running into trouble, they didn't have to hold the course for 20 months.

If a terrestrial broadcasting company operated the way they have, you'd all be howling about mis-management and stupidity.

No they're not suing them, this is much more unfair than any court could ever be, as the FCC has the final say and there is really no recourse if I'm not mistaken.
NAB is making their problems even worse and is trying to push them out of business and I don't know about you but I think Satrad is the least of terrestrial radio's problems, internet radio is potentially a much bigger problem unless radio starts streaming like the smart one's have..

 

[TheBigA]

NAB is making their problems even worse and is trying to push them out of business

You're ignoring the fact that no one forced them to:

1) Overspend on content
2) Bribe auto and electronics manufacturers
3) Stay the course for the merger

There are many other ways to accomplush the same thing as a merger without actually merging, and there are other content suppliers either company could have merged with that could have solved their problems.

These problems are of their own creation. And as I said, for some reason each of these companies are getting treated by the media, the industry, and the blogs as though they're innocent and oppressed, when nothing could be further from the truth. You will see their true colors if & when the merger goes through.

 

[KB1OKL]

NAB is making their problems even worse and is trying to push them out of business

You're ignoring the fact that no one forced them to:

1) Overspend on content
2) Bribe auto and electronics manufacturers
3) Stay the course for the merger

There are many other ways to accomplush the same thing as a merger without actually merging, and there are other content suppliers either company could have merged with that could have solved their problems.

These problems are of their own creation. And as I said, for some reason each of these companies are getting treated by the media, the industry, and the blogs as though they're innocent and oppressed, when nothing could be further from the truth. You will see their true colors if & when the merger goes through.

Maybe but they did spend the money, how much did ibiquity spend on getting their stuff into cars, how do you know they bribed them, more likely they made exclusive deals with them, that is not against the law AFAIK, when is the last time you saw a Coke machine next to a Pepsi machine? And at least they're spending money on content. I myself think that there should have been receivers built that received both XM and Sirrius. I still don't see what IBOC radio has to do with any of this, what did IBOC do to warrant getting a free ride into cars along with Satrad who has already paved the way, that's like one salesman stealing another's territory. How many car radios do you think there are in this country as opposed to Satrad receivers, very lop sided ratio I would bet. If people want IBOC they'll buy it.
Incidentally I went into Best Buy today and tried 2 (quite expensive in the 300.00-400.00 range) Alpine car HD receivers and received no IBOC either on AM nor FM and there are plenty of powerful noise generators here right in Worcester or close by, and not even a peep. I asked the salesman if they ever got any HD there at all, he shook his head as if to say don't waste your time, said no, and said that there were only about 4 HD stations in MA anyway and it wasn't worth buying them, haha! It is now 4 non working to one working, so 20% of the HD receivers I have tried actually received IBOC and lit the little light.

 

[TheBigA]

Maybe but they did spend the money, how much did ibiquity spend on getting their stuff into cars

You're allowing your dislike of IBOC interfere with what is fair.

 

[KB1OKL]

Maybe but they did spend the money, how much did ibiquity spend on getting their stuff into cars

You're allowing your dislike of IBOC interfere with what is fair.

Well I guess we just disagree as the old song says.

 

[Carmine5]

As a follow up to this thread, John Anderson over at DIY Media reported on Toyota's position concerning mandated HD Radio and offered this analysis:

"In sum: two of the world's largest vehicle manufacturers are leery of the wholly proprietary nature of HD Radio and believe that its success or failure should be based on listener adoption, not mandated inclusion in the dashboard. It is a very strong message of no-confidence in the HD technology; perhaps the strongest articulated by any vehicle manufacturer to date."

http://www.diymedia.net/

Since the FCC purposes to bring this issue up in a later inquiry it will be interesting to see what comes of it. As it stands now, Sirius-XM cannot prevent or collude with CE manufacturers from adding HD Radio in satellite units if they desire to do so.

C5

 

[TheBigA]

It is a very strong message of no-confidence in the HD technology; perhaps the strongest articulated by any vehicle manufacturer to date."

I don't think it has anything to do with confidence in the technology. The car manufacturers get paid hundreds of millions of dollars to install satellite radio. It's all about money and greed. Nobody would be happy about that prospect regardless of popular opinion. In 1966, TV manufacturers were required to install UHF tuners on their TV sets. I can't imagine any of them were happy about that. They certainly didn't do it because there was popular demand for it. I wonder how those same auto manufacturers would feel about being told that ALL car radios must receive AM, FM, satellite, and HD.

I fully expect to see Sirius XM find a way to use their new monopoly power to get out of these very expensive auto deals. One way to do it would go to Congress and say they'll voluntarily incorporate HD in their proprietary portable satellite radios if the gov't will require auto manufacturers to do the same in cars.