Carmakers Against HD-Satellite Radio Combo

[Savage]

I never said broadcasters were being forced to buy the HD system. I said they were being forced to accept destructive interference. Read the post before you type. "Leading the witness" is not only permitted on cross-examination of a hostile witness - which would be you - it's highly advisable. That is, if you want to make your argument and win your case.

As far as "untruths" from KB1OKL or others posting here, I can't think of a single "untruth" he has deliberately submitted. Ironic how you accuse me of being "judgmental" and then set yourself up as the arbiter of what is, or what is not, the truth.

No, of course I didn't say you were a Nazi sympathizer. The point I was making is, in times of conflict, there are always those who are only too willing to throw their compatriots under the bus. From its unfortunate beginning that has been one of the most disheartening things about HD Radio. It pits radio broadcasters against each other over the interference issues - a sad state of affairs which FM, FM stereo, NTSC color TV and C-Quam never did, systems constantly compared with HD by the latter's proponents.

Which again: would include you.

 

[TheBigA]

I said they were being forced to accept destructive interference.

Certainly, you're not being forced to accept it. You're fighting it. And to the best of my knowledge, no one has said you must accept it. Including the FCC. Their inaction isn't the same as forcing you to accept it. Because you're not.

And I haven't said you must accept it...not that anything I say makes any difference.

"Leading the witness" is not only permitted on cross-examination of a hostile witness - which would be you - it's highly advisable.

If you knew me, you wouldn't call me a hostile witness. And I've never been hostile to you or anyone here.

As far as "untruths" from KB1OKL or others posting here, I can't think of a single "untruth" he has deliberately submitted.

That's like calling the IBOC interference "deliberate." You and he say it is, they'd say it isn't. I stand by every point I've taken with him, except for the one you corrected me on.

It pits radio broadcasters against each other over the interference issues - a sad state of affairs which FM, FM stereo, NTSC color TV and C-Quam never did, systems constantly compared with HD by the latter's proponents.

Which again: would include you.

Maybe you're confusing me with someone else. I've never said anything that would make me a proponant. I've said several things that would put me on your side. I think I've been fair about it. And I'm satisfied with that.

 

[Savage]

Give me a large, economy-sized break. First of all you're just arguing to argue, trying to parse everything I write as a diversion from the topic - which we all may recall, happens to be "HD Radio."

This touches on something Clouseau recently accused me of. Of course you're an HD "proponant" (actually, that's "proponent") notwithstanding your laborious protestations that you're not. You've never posted a single sentence which I can recall, acknowledging the system's glaring, obvious problems - which by the way, are why HD is in the trouble it is. I've never seen you once express support or willingness to help stations being victimized by it. OTOH you constantly attack HD's critics, yours truly for one, using rhetoric like "lies" and "falsehoods."

If it were actually true that you "don't care about HD Radio one way or the other," you wouldn't even visit here, much less post 1,435 times (at last count.) Nobody who "doesn't care" ventures an opinion. The reason people opine on the HD Radio blog is simple: they passionately believe one way or the other.

If you didn't care, you wouldn't argue, endlessly chanting the HD talking points which could be taken almost verbatim from the iBiquity blog and publicly taking on the system's critics. You're a "proponant." You know it, I know it, and everybody on this board knows it.

 

[pocket-radio]

BigA the hands of Savage and other broadcasters are tied for now. Until boy wonder leaves the FCC I doubt any changes or decision will be made. It comes down to money and lawyers. Plus the FCC would have to make changes to the current IBOC rules. The FCC (our government) moves VERY SLOW and it could take years to get this IBOC debacle resolved. Providing of course IBOC is around that long.

 

[TheBigA]

Give me a large, economy-sized break. First of all you're just arguing to argue, trying to parse everything I write as a diversion from the topic

Not at all...I'm defending myself. You're accusing me of something and I feel you're wrong.

You've never posted a single sentence which I can recall, acknowledging the system's glaring, obvious problems

I really don't have the time to go through every post and show you how wrong you are. However, I know I've said directly to you that I agree that you have an issue with a specific broadcaster. We've never disagreed about that. I doubt you'll find an HD proponant who'll even admit you have a problem. I do, and I imagine you're not the only one.

I'm also not an engineer, and so I'm not going to get involved in a technical discussion. I've read all the posts here on it, and they all seem correct to me.

I've never seen you once express support or willingness to help stations being victimized by it. OTOH you constantly attack HD's critics, yours truly for one, using rhetoric like "lies" and "falsehoods."

The fact is there's absolutely nothing I can do to help. I don't sign petitions, I don't give money to causes, and I'm not interested in taking sides. If someone comes up with something better, hooray.

As for "attacking critics," I'm just pointing out things that strike me as dishonest. Like saying there's a conspiracy, that the HD alliance knew this would cause interference, they're doing it specifically to destroy community radio, that they're all making loads of money, and on and on and on. That's all pretty obvious hyperbole.

If it were actually true that you "don't care about HD Radio one way or the other," you wouldn't even visit here, much less post 1,435 times (at last count.) Nobody who "doesn't care" ventures an opinion.

I'm a historian first and foremost and I believe in the sanctity of historical facts. In that way, I care. As for the specifics of HD, I don't have a dog in the fight. We're at a point in history that's interesting to me, thus I feel compelled to comment.

If you didn't care, you wouldn't argue, endlessly chanting the HD talking points which could be taken almost verbatim from the iBiquity blog and publicly taking on the system's critics. You're a "proponant." You know it, I know it, and everybody on this board knows it.

You're not going to believe this, but I've never been to the iBiquity blog. I have two full time jobs, and really don't have time to waste moving comments from site to site. Perhaps other people have that kind of time, but not me.

You want to call me a proponant? You're wrong, and if I was, why would I have posted that they using a recent line of credit to meet payroll? That was factually incorrect, and I've apologized. But I think that should demonstrate I'm not what you accuse me of.

 

[TheBigA]

Until boy wonder leaves the FCC I doubt any changes or decision will be made.

I haven't seen a quote from him that leads me to believe his leaving the FCC will change a thing. Both Democrats and Republicans appear to be in favor. Even Michael Copps hasn't said anything that stands out in my memory as negative.

 

[TheBigA]

you wouldn't even visit here, much less post 1,435 times (at last count.)

You definitely have me confused with someone else. I checked my post counter and it's at 195. (This makes 196).

And I post in a lot of other places on this board, not just HD.

 

[KB1OKL]

I have some questions for you BigA: Now you're not an engineer, I'm not either. My questions: You do realize that an IBOC AM station takes up 30 Khz of space on the AM band correct? You realize that AM stations are spaced at 10 khz apart in this country, correct?
I'm sure you know this. You also realize that IBOC was designed by people who know a hell of a lot more about radio propagation and engineering than me and you, correct? Then, do you think maybe, just maybe they KNEW that the IBOC sidebands would extend out 15 Khz from the center frequency of the transmitted signal on both sides taking up 30 total Khz, and exactly 10 khz from that transmitted center frequency was another radio station in both directions up and down? If you can follow this simple logic, then how can you find it believable that the original designers knew nothing about the impending adjacent channel interference? Like I said I am not an engineer but I KNEW the first time I read about IBOC radio that it was going to take down two other AM frequencies with it and knew it was an unworkable technology which it has proven to be.
I an not saying that I believe it was a conspiracy or at least a conspiracy by design although my mind is open :, just that perhaps they did not care and were living in la-la-land. I believe that at least some of the people who signed on probably believed in IBOC so much that they believed that the whole country would embrace IBOC on a grand scale and everyone would buy HD radios like people bought hula hoops in 1958 and get rid of their analog radios and the new technology would be so wonderful that it would be the new hula hoop, new 33 and 1/3 LP record or CD. Obviously this didn't happen. When a new well thought out technology hits (with a little luck) like the CD or LP before it for example it revolutionizes the industry upon which it is based. When a badly thought out technology comes out, it usually dies a quick death like IBOC has done. The problem here is that a lot of key radio people seem to have gotten caught up in this whole fantasy land and just won't let it go.
To Illustrate:
I remember the advent of the CD very well, my local strawberry's was selling records at great sale prices for a while and one day I walked into it to buy an LP and the whole store was full of CD's, not an LP in sight. This happened all over the country, we all had to buy CD players whether we wanted to or not to buy music. This was not forced on us by the FCC, it was perhaps partially done with some collusion by the record company's who were very powerful then but it couldn't have been done without the wholesale embrace of the consumers who did love the new CD's, they were clear, didn't scratch, you could slide them on the floor within reason and they still sounded sparkly clear, you didn't have to turn them over, etc. They worked much better in a practical way than LP's did even though some including me still buy LP's and think they are sonically superior.
I think this whole IBOC debacle has been a sad chapter in radio and I'm sorry to have seen so many people get caught up in it, a lot of people have gotten hooked by it, into long licensing deals, but worst of all it is destructive, harmful interference and whether or not it was intentionally meant to interfere, it is now willful interference since no one can deny the interference exists any longer unless their heads are buried in the ground.

FM is no better as it doesn't work either except of course in Texas and NYC ;D and the cure for that will make it as bad as AM, so adios FM iBOC as well.

The whole point of this post was to say, yes, I believe that the engineers who designed it knew it would wreak havoc on the bands but didn't care as they probably believed it would supersede analog so fast it would overwhelm analog radio and all would be IBOC nirvana within two years.

 

[TheBigA]

The whole point of this post was to say, yes, I believe that the engineers who designed it knew it would wreak havoc on the bands but didn't care as they probably believed it would supersede analog so fast it would overwhelm analog radio and all would be IBOC nirvana within two years.

I think you're leaving out a lot of people in the food chain. And no I don't think they knew it would "wreak havoc." And I don't think it actually HAS. It's caused problems in certain very specific cases. Not all.

You gave me your logic, here's mine: They want every station to install IBOC. They don't benefit financially when they cause interference with two-thirds of the stations out there, because that means fewer stations that might install IBOC. The only way IBOC can be universal is if it can co-exist with everyone, and every station can use it. That's not the case now. And they definitely don't benefit when members of the Alliance or even members of a single Alliance station group are interfering with each other. So no, I see no reason why they would knowingly create that kind of situation.

But this is also a bigger problem for AM than FM. So far, there have been no interference complaints that I know of on FM. Yet one of the anti-IBOC groups (there appear to be several) claims that IBOC was created by "big radio" to destroy community FM stations. I have seen no evidence of this.

Don't misunderstand this to mean I love IBOC. Just that I don't agree with these particular charges.